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KiPro and timecode

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Michael Craven
KiPro and timecode
on Feb 4, 2010 at 7:13:06 pm

Howdy,
I'll be doing a 6 cam shoot next week with 7 KiPros. I need to know if it's possible to use 1 of the KiPros as my master TC generator and have the others sync to it. We'll be recording 1080 23.98psf via HDSDI. If I set the "master" KiPro to freerun TC, will it continuously send TC out of the LTC port or only when it is in rec mode? I skimmed the manual but didn't see a definite answer. Also, where in the KiPro config would I specify the framerate for the TC?
Thanks!
Mike


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: KiPro and timecode
on Feb 4, 2010 at 8:29:48 pm

[Michael Craven] "I need to know if it's possible to use 1 of the KiPros as my master TC generator and have the others sync to it."

Yes, via LTC this is totally possible.

[Michael Craven] "If I set the "master" KiPro to freerun TC, will it continuously send TC out of the LTC port or only when it is in rec mode?"

Only in Rec, but it doesn't matter as you can use the one Ki to control the rest of the Ki's...read on.

[Michael Craven] "Also, where in the KiPro config would I specify the framerate for the TC?"

Menu number 8.0. You can choose tc in where you can enter the tc value (but only in whole number of hours, so 01:00:00:00 - 23:00:00:00), SDI rp188, LTC or time of day. For the time of day, you can set that parameter in menu 55.6. Once you have that set, you can run 'LTC out' to 'LTC in', in series to each KiPro and turn the other 5 KiPros tc source to LTC and to arm on tc. So that way, you hit record on the maser Ki, and the rest will follow.

Make sense?


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Michael Craven
Re: KiPro and timecode
on Feb 4, 2010 at 8:39:13 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "[Michael Craven] "Also, where in the KiPro config would I specify the framerate for the TC?"

Menu number 8.0. You can choose tc in where you can enter the tc value (but only in whole number of hours, so 01:00:00:00 - 23:00:00:00), SDI rp188, LTC or time of day. For the time of day, you can set that parameter in menu 55.6. Once you have that set, you can run 'LTC out' to 'LTC in', in series to each KiPro and turn the other 5 KiPros tc source to LTC and to arm on tc. So that way, you hit record on the maser Ki, and the rest will follow.

Make sense?"


Yep, makes sense. How does it know what framerate TC I want? Is it based on the input video signal?
Thanks for your help!
Mike


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: KiPro and timecode
on Feb 4, 2010 at 8:43:05 pm

[Michael Craven] "Is it based on the input video signal?"

Put the Ki in psf mode and you should be good. Yes.

I should add for people working in 60Hz, that you can choose df or ndf as well.

Jeremy


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Michael Craven
Re: KiPro and timecode
on Feb 4, 2010 at 9:29:00 pm

Thank you!!


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gary adcock
Re: KiPro and timecode
on Feb 5, 2010 at 2:24:25 pm

[Michael Craven] "I need to know if it's possible to use 1 of the KiPros as my master TC generator and have the others sync to it. We'll be recording 1080 23.98psf via HDSDI."

Why would you work this way and not in the more traditional manner of running Clock-it boxes or having your audio guy generate master TC?

My comment is on the workflow, traditionally TC is generated from the camera, but set by the audio person on set so that everything is in sync.

I would check. Otherwise your audio may have different TC than the video.


gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows for the Digitally Inclined
Chicago, IL

http://blogs.creativecow.net/24640


http://library.creativecow.net/articles/adcock_gary/AJAIOHD.php




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Michael Craven
Re: KiPro and timecode
on Feb 6, 2010 at 4:49:05 pm

[gary adcock] "Why would you work this way and not in the more traditional manner of running Clock-it boxes or having your audio guy generate master TC?"

Believe me, it's not by choice. If it were up to me, they would have a dedicated master clock. They have been informed that what they are proposing is a less than ideal setup. However, budget cuts seem to be the norm lately and they skimp and take chances they shouldn't. I'm just the guy who has to make it work with what I'm given and a day rate is a day rate.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: KiPro and timecode
on Feb 6, 2010 at 5:17:06 pm

[Michael Craven] "I'm just the guy who has to make it work with what I'm given and a day rate is a day rate."

Hey man, I hear ya.

The KiPro will be just fine with what you are trying to do, as a matter of fact, it will be a very slick way to do it. Make sure to have some fun while you're out there.

No reason for lockit if you aren't doing separate system sound.

Jeremy


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gary adcock
Re: KiPro and timecode
on Feb 6, 2010 at 5:22:48 pm

[Michael Craven] "Believe me, it's not by choice"

Michael,
Remember to Fight the Good fight and this is one them.

Explain to them that it may cost them upwards of 2x-3x the amount of time in post ( and equate that to the cost on set) if they try to avoid conventional wisdom, thats all you can do.

I would make sure that you send an email explaining this huge ramification in post compared to the minimal cost to do it on camera, so that when they come back to you complaining about how much extra work it was for them to shoot this way, your butt is at least partially covered.

It is ridiculously simple to do multi-cam when all of the clips have synchronous timecode, as compared to manually having to re-sync every shot one by one.



gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows for the Digitally Inclined
Chicago, IL

http://blogs.creativecow.net/24640


http://library.creativecow.net/articles/adcock_gary/AJAIOHD.php




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Michael Craven
Re: KiPro and timecode
on Feb 6, 2010 at 8:42:08 pm

[gary adcock] "Explain to them that it may cost them upwards of 2x-3x the amount of time in post"

Yea, you'd think that would make sense, but they aren't so bright most of the time. You'd think that after making them look good for 3 major productions for Showtime and then successful DVD releases after that they would learn. Unfortunately (depending on perspective), I'm posting it and have had to save them every time because of them skimping on the production budget. They are slowly "getting it", but they have to get burned before it sinks in.
This is a 6 camera shoot that should run about 2 hours or so. Since we're using KiPros there won't be any tape changes. In the event that the TC doesn't work out as planned, syncing shouldn't be too terribly time consuming if I end up having to do it by hand. Nevertheless, I'd rather have it right to begin with but it is what it is.
Thanks again to you and Jeremy for your help!
Mike


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Alex Desrial
Re: KiPro and timecode
on Jun 4, 2010 at 4:34:47 pm

Hi All,

I am interested to know the kind of workflow MIchael describe, for my future reference.

Do you make one Kipro to become a dedicated master time code ? In which you don't expect to record video to the unit.

Isn't it possible to have 6 cameras with 6 Kipros, and use one of the Ki become TC master while also doing recording.






Alex Desrial
MediaIntegra - Jakarta


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: KiPro and timecode
on Jun 4, 2010 at 4:37:02 pm

[Alex Desrial] "Do you make one Kipro to become a dedicated master time code ? "

You can, yes.

[Alex Desrial] "In which you don't expect to record video to the unit. "

Why not record video too?

[Alex Desrial] "Isn't it possible to have 6 cameras with 6 Kipros, and use one of the Ki become TC master while also doing recording. "

Sure.


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Alex Desrial
Re: KiPro and timecode
on Jun 4, 2010 at 4:58:05 pm

Hi Jeremy,

I am just curious why Michael have 7 Kipros where he only has 6 cameras to record from and actually 6 kipro enough for him.

Love to know the idea behind it that my also be helpful for my reference.

Could you share with me Michael ?

Thank you



Alex Desrial
MediaIntegra - Jakarta


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Michael Craven
Re: KiPro and timecode
on Jun 5, 2010 at 3:28:46 am

[Alex Desrial] "I am just curious why Michael have 7 Kipros where he only has 6 cameras to record from and actually 6 kipro enough for him."

We used a KiPro for each of the 6 cameras and 1 for the line cut coming from the switcher. Everything worked great.


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jesse miller
Re: KiPro and timecode
on Jun 25, 2012 at 10:45:44 pm

from the latest version of the kipro manual, this bit here makes me think you CANNOT use the kipro to send timecode out:

"Note: the Ki Pro LTC output does not provide output during EE
or recording operations; the output is only for use during playback, as might be used
for dubbing content to another device with matching timecode. For timecode to
multiple Ki Pro units, the use of a timecode generator and a timecode distribution
amplifier is recommended."


right? no timecode out on the LTC during playback or EE operations means that you are SOL if you want to daisychain, or use the kipro as a master.


i am shooting a multicamera gig where we will be on freerun (recording internally to the cameras but a live cut to the kipro) and i had hoped to use the kipro as the master, but after reading that, sounds like i will have to use a camera as the master.

please correct me, i hope that i am wrong...


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: KiPro and timecode
on Jun 25, 2012 at 10:50:18 pm

[jesse miller] "please correct me, i hope that i am wrong..."

In this case, you are not wrong (unless you have one KiPro with a really long tc file on it and using that as tc master). It is different from the original scenario posted in February.

What cameras are you using?


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jesse miller
Re: KiPro and timecode
on Jun 25, 2012 at 11:06:23 pm

using ex3's. guess i will have to use one of them as the master.

with all the awesomeness of the kipro, it is a total bummer that the seductive 'ltc out' is dead except during playback.

someone should mention that to the product manager.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: KiPro and timecode
on Jun 25, 2012 at 11:11:52 pm

[jesse miller] "with all the awesomeness of the kipro, it is a total bummer that the seductive 'ltc out' is dead except during playback.

someone should mention that to the product manager."


It's not a tc generator, nor does it claim to be I don't think. It's best to have one source of tc, rather than loop.

If the setup is possible, you can loop tc through cameras and set each KiPro to steal tc via SDI.

Should get you close, but a proper tc generator is, of course, always the best way to go.

Jeremy


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