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Problem with, Sound delay, Machina and Cineform XENA LHi

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Mikael B
Problem with, Sound delay, Machina and Cineform XENA LHi
on Oct 6, 2009 at 8:51:44 pm

Hello

I have now tested my new XENA LHi card some more in CS4 Premiere Pro 4.1 and this is my report of what’s working and not working. I know CS4

Premiere Pro 4.1 is very unstable so I can’t blame AJA for everything and frankly let’s hope the upcoming v4.2 of Premiere is finally making the CS4

stable, now to the issues that I have with AJA.

1.When I play my clips in the timeline (new AJA SEQ 720p 25frame) the audio is out of sync compare to the picture, it can drift as much as 2-3 second

but it could also play nicely in perfect sync for a while, now this is very random and unexpected. For the most of time it’s out of sync and this is when I

use AJA ASIO driver in the sound hardware setup inside premiere?

I also would like to claim that this AJA ASIO driver is very poor written, it’s not stable and won’t even turn up in my sound manager or for that matter in

my music DAW. I have never ever seen an ASIO driver that not has appeared in my music DAW system like Steinberg Nuendo/Cubase (and I have

been using ASIO since the Stone Age). In every ASIO driver I used I’ve been given the option to have control of the latency (buffer) but AJA has not

even given me these option, please tell me why?

I have also tried my other card “Decklink Intensity Pro” and it has no problem of playing the same files in perfect sync (sound and video).

2.The “Machina” is acting very strange, when I play a 720p 25frame AVI file I get no picture in the Machina window (just the AJA logo) but I get a

SDI-out picture and HDMI picture? The software panel “Machina” is actually freezing when I maximize the window, and the only way to close the

program is to use the task manager and end the program there?

3.I have the CineForm “Prospect HD” and it’s suppose to work with AJA and it sort of does. I select a new AJA sequence AJA HD 1280 x 720 aspect

ratio to Square Pixels (1.0) and bring in the clips on the timeline (1280 x 720 25p AVI) and I get the red line above the clips? Isn’t it suppose to work

right away without these redline, I can’t even render these files or put some effects on it and then try to render again without success?
I can play these files from timeline thought, but as stated above with big sound delay?

4.When I try to make a custom project and click on the “AJA setup button” premiere crash, but if I instead skip that part and make these changes later

it’s all fine to press this AJA setup button without any crash?

5.Why does AJA only support (or show) Nvidia graphic card, the new AMD Radeon 5870 is lightning fast?

My computer spec:

(I have a compared this setup to what AJA has on their site and I think this is by far a faster computer setup, Decklink has no problem to play 4 track or

more Simultaneously of full 4.2.2 1920 x 1080p):

AJA XENA LHi with 4.1.3 software
CineForm Prospect HD v4.10
Processor: Intel i7 920
Motherboard: ASUS P6T Deluxe V2 with the latest BIOS 06.04
RAM: Corsair 12GB at speed 1600 (tested with Memtest 86+ in 8 passes)
Raid Card: Adaptec 3085 with 8 x 320Gb in a raid 5
System (C:): SSD Intel X25-M G2 80GB
Graphic Card: AMD/ATI 5870
Operating System: Windows Vista64 Ultimate with all the latest updates (SP2) (this is a clean installation).
NLE: Adobe CS4 with all the latest updates

Best Regards
Mikael Bergstrom
Sweden


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Bram Tulloch
Re: Problem with, Sound delay, Machina and Cineform XENA LHi
on Oct 6, 2009 at 9:28:17 pm

I can't confess to know the solution to all your problems but I had HUGE problems with the AJA 4.1.3 drivers and Premiere CS4.

The "AJA setup button" problem was a known issue and is now fixed in the newly released 4.1.4 AJA drivers.

I suggest you update to these immediately and see how your other problems pan out.

The Machina problem you suggest, where you have no picture in Machina check this:
When in the "Play" tab, check your "Display Options". There should be a setting to "Display To Desktop". You should have 4 options there. It sounds like maybe you've got this setting set to "off".

Machina freezing when you maximise could be 2 things.
Firstly, I'd try updating to the 4.1.4 AJA software and see if that fixes it.
Secondly, check your graphics card drivers, and see if they are a supported version on the AJA site.
http://www.aja.com/support/xena/xena-graphics-cards.php

Hope this helps.
I don't know anything about ASIO but thought I'd chime in on the stuff I do have an idea about.

Bram


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Richard Van Slyke
Re: Problem with, Sound delay, Machina and Cineform XENA LHi
on Oct 6, 2009 at 10:53:53 pm

I have an identical problem with my Xena LS card and Premiere Pro CS4, with the AJA 4.1.4 drivers.
When playing video from the timeline and the Program panel, video and audio are out of sync.
Also, the AJA Playback Setting panel does not open-up, either in Sequence or in the Program panel (only the Adobe Playback Settings panel opens up).
Do you have that problem, too?
When I play clips in Machina or in the Source panel, everything is OK.
I have an NVidia Quadro FX 3800 graphics card, so the graphics card is not the problem.


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Bram Tulloch
Re: Problem with, Sound delay, Machina and Cineform XENA LHi
on Oct 6, 2009 at 11:05:27 pm

I certainly don't have that problem with 4.1.4 AJA and my Xena 2k card. (i.e. AJA Playback settings panel not opening up)

re: Sync
What audio monitoring are you using?
If mine is set to Windows audio, the audio is in sync with what's in my preview window on my computer monitor in Premiere, but not my broadcast monitor.
If I set it to AJA audio hardware, it's in sync with my broadcast monitor (as my monitor uses the embedded audio from the HD-SDI stream)

Your graphics card may not be a problem but your graphics card drivers may be. Check compatability on the AJA website.
Not saying this is the problem, just have been screwed by the wrong Nvidia driver version in the past, not just with this system but with other higher end grading and compositing systems.


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Mikael B
Re: Problem with, Sound delay, Machina and Cineform XENA LHi
on Oct 6, 2009 at 11:10:08 pm

Thanks for all the answers :-)

Yes, it is exact the same for me about the playback setting???

The sound quality is super good but it is completely out of sync also tends to repeat itself.

If someone says "hi my name is Michael" it sound like "hey hey my name is is name Michael".

The manual says you can't use other soundcard when you use AJA, Hmm but we can't use AJA either. So it's erea 51 isn't it?


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Bram Tulloch
Re: Problem with, Sound delay, Machina and Cineform XENA LHi
on Oct 6, 2009 at 11:18:14 pm

Do you have Sync going to your AJA card? Like genlock sync?

Or are your playback settings set to "free run"?

I guess if you can't get to your playback settings then you may not be able to answer that.

I'd check that you've uninstalled 4.1.3 AJA drivers properly before you installed the 4.1.4 drivers. You did UNINSTALL 4.1.3 BEFORE you installed 4.1.4 right? With a reboot of the system after every step?

Sorry if that's a silly question, but it just sounds like the issues that AJA reported in the 4.1.3 drivers are still lingering in your system.

Might pay to try uninstalling the AJA stuff and trying again.
Or even go back to the 4.1.1 drivers. I didn't have any problems with that one either.
4.1.3 however didn't last longer than 10 minutes on my set up.


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Richard Van Slyke
Re: Problem with, Sound delay, Machina and Cineform XENA LHi
on Oct 6, 2009 at 11:51:00 pm

I do always uninstall my drivers before I install new ones. It's OK to ask that question, because you always have to start with the basics.
My problems started the minute I went from 4.1.1 to 4.1.3. I had normal playback before.
I went back to 4.1.1 and the problems remained. Now I'm in 4.1.4 and the same problems persist.
What's surprising is that the drivers date on the new version still shows 5/19/09. Maybe AJA doesn't change that date when they release a new version.

I'm using an external Roland audio interface, but in Preferences, I use the AJA ASIO.
Audio itself shouldn't be the problem.
The fact that it works well in Source but not in Program is strange. And the AJA Playback panel not opening up shouldn't be related to audio.
Also, I get no output to my external component monitor when in program (I don't have SDI inputs on that monitor). But it works from Source.

Mikael, the audio delay I get is different from the one you are experiencing. In my case, it's just off-sync with the video.
In your case, if you get stuttering, it sounds like a buffer setting. But I don't know that you can control this in Premiere.

I have all the latest drivers in every component (checked over and over). My workstation is a Dell T7500 Quad-Core so it's in the AJA requirements.
I'm going to redo an AJA 4.1.4 uninstall and reinstall to see if it makes any difference.



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Mikael B
Re: Problem with, Sound delay, Machina and Cineform XENA LHi
on Oct 6, 2009 at 11:18:56 pm

"If mine is set to Windows audio, the audio is in sync with what's in my preview window on my computer monitor in Premiere, but not my broadcast monitor.
If I set it to AJA audio hardware, it's in sync with my broadcast monitor (as my monitor uses the embedded audio from the HD-SDI stream)"

Strange with my old card "Decklink Intensity Pro" it was in sync in both "preview/program window on my computer monitors in Premiere" and in the "HDMI out and analog out"?

Strange??

I have not an Nvidia card I have the new AMD Radeon 5870 card (super fast), do you think this is the problem?


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Bram Tulloch
Re: Problem with, Sound delay, Machina and Cineform XENA LHi
on Oct 6, 2009 at 11:23:54 pm

Yeah maybe with your old card it did that, but with my AJA Xena 2k card it's been like that even with CS3. Not a problem for us as we always monitor the embedded SDI audio anyway. Works out for us.
If we're using DV or anything that's not related to our AJA card, we simply change the audio hardware to windows audio.

As for your graphics card, I have no idea if that's a problem. I'd contact AJA support about that one.
They only list Nvidia drivers on their site, but that's not to say other cards won't work, just that maybe they haven't tested with others.


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Mikael B
Re: Problem with, Sound delay, Machina and Cineform XENA LHi
on Oct 6, 2009 at 11:32:31 pm

Okay thanks Bram Tulloch for all the help :-)

Just curious, what kind of computer do you have? Are there any of them listed under "supported" on the AJA website (the spec)?

Regards
Mikael


Mikael
Grammofonbolaget


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Bram Tulloch
Re: Problem with, Sound delay, Machina and Cineform XENA LHi
on Oct 6, 2009 at 11:56:09 pm

Vista 64-bit Business Service Pack 2
HP xw6600
Dual quad core Xeon CPU @ 2.50GHz
8GB RAM
Nvidia Quadro FX1700
Adobe Production Premium CS4
Media Vault 4120 FC array.


The xw6600 isn't an AJA listed solution but it's so close to the xw8600 as to not be a problem.
I did intensive testing before committing to this machine. We have A lot in our building so it also kept costs down.


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Mikael B
Re: Problem with, Sound delay, Machina and Cineform XENA LHi
on Oct 7, 2009 at 12:02:51 am

Thanks for your spec Bram Tulloch

Do you think my computer setup is to blame? I mean it's super fast with Decklink no problem there and no problem when I run Cineform, just with AJA (still 4.1.3 tonight at home)?

AJA XENA LHi with 4.1.3 software
CineForm Prospect HD v4.10
Processor: Intel i7 920
Motherboard: ASUS P6T Deluxe V2 with the latest BIOS 06.04
RAM: Corsair 12GB at speed 1600 (tested with Memtest 86+ in 8 passes)
Raid Card: Adaptec 3085 with 8 x 320Gb in a raid 5
System (C:): SSD Intel X25-M G2 80GB
Graphic Card: AMD/ATI 5870
Operating System: Windows Vista64 Ultimate with all the latest updates (SP2) (this is a clean installation).
NLE: Adobe CS4 with all the latest updates

Best Regards
Mikael Bergstrom
Sweden


Mikael
Grammofonbolaget


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Bram Tulloch
Re: Problem with, Sound delay, Machina and Cineform XENA LHi
on Oct 7, 2009 at 12:07:21 am

I'm no expert when it comes to that stuff.
I'd ask AJA support if you have any concerns.
support@aja.com

Email them and send them your specs.

First thing I'd be doing though is getting rid of those 4.1.3 drivers! :)

Our company has a deal with HP so we've got those machines and monitors everywhere so I don't have any experience with other machines (other than a few Dells and Macs)

Good luck!


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Richard Van Slyke
Re: Problem with, Sound delay, Machina and Cineform XENA LHi
on Oct 7, 2009 at 12:14:36 am

I agree with Bram on the AJA drivers.
We both had problems with the 4.1.3.
So maybe it's best that you take care of that before anything else.
It doesn't mean that it will be the solution, but it might save you a lot of effort if that's what it is.


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Mikael B
Re: Problem with, Sound delay, Machina and Cineform XENA LHi
on Oct 7, 2009 at 5:15:57 pm

So I've updated to 4.1.4 and guess what the Machina now work:-)

To sad thought I lost my AJA ASIO option inside Premiere, tried to reinstall did'nt help, tried go back to 4.1.1 didn't work and now I'm reinstalling CS4 to see if it helps me to solve this issue.

I’m I tired of this, YES!


Mikael
Grammofonbolaget


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Richard Van Slyke
Re: Problem with, Sound delay, Machina and Cineform XENA LHi
on Oct 7, 2009 at 5:42:50 pm

What do you mean by "lost the ASIO"?
Is it in "Edit / Preferences / Audio Hardware"?
How about the AJA video options?

It sounds very much like the type of problem that I have, so I'd like to know if reinstalling Premiere works.
The problem with reinstalling Premiere is that, from what I understand, the license is only for three installs.
I bought a new workstation in August and had to reinstall CS4 on that machine. Now I have only one install left, so I want to make sure that if I do it it will solve the problem.
Good luck!


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Mikael B
Re: Problem with, Sound delay, Machina and Cineform XENA LHi
on Oct 7, 2009 at 5:57:20 pm

Is this even with the deactivation?

Mikael
Grammofonbolaget


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Richard Van Slyke
Re: Problem with, Sound delay, Machina and Cineform XENA LHi
on Oct 7, 2009 at 6:10:03 pm

I'm not sure, but that's what I was told by Adobe when I had to reinstall.
It might be different in Sweden.
Tim's suggestion is one that you should try first before you go into a Premiere reinstall.


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Tim Kolb
Re: Problem with, Sound delay, Machina and Cineform XENA LHi
on Oct 7, 2009 at 5:57:45 pm

OK...there are several issues here:

1. CineForm isn't certified for CS4...so that is at least a portion of your issue.

2. CineForm uses AJA's OEM drivers, NOT the retail drivers, and the version that is current for CineForm with Adobe CS3 is 7.0.046 (it should be available in a folder from the Prospect install)

3. if you HAVE installed the OEM drivers with the retail drivers...and I speak from experience...you are in bad shape. They HATE each other. Clean them all out and reinstall the AJA Retail drivers of your choice.

4. I have no technical reason why this is, but I see far more issues with ATI display cards and Adobe products than I do NVIDIA pro cards and Adobe products...it's purely anecdotal, but this is how it seems to me.

First off...I'd pursue those items. Then see how things go.






TimK,
Director, Consultant
Kolb Productions,


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Mikael B
Re: Problem with, Sound delay, Machina and Cineform XENA LHi
on Oct 7, 2009 at 6:31:56 pm

Tim Kolb, thanks for your reply :-)

1. CineForm is certified for CS4, just that the real time engine isn’t ready yet. That does not mean that it doesn’t work in CS4. It works just fine with Machina, in perfect sync, just not inside of premiere (delay and stuttering).

2. CineForm uses AJA's OEM drivers? (I’m not following you here?)

3. If you HAVE installed the OEM drivers with the retail drivers? (I’m not following you here?)

4. I have been using ATI for a long time and never had any problems. My colleague use ATI & Premiere also without any problems and been doing so for many years. We never hade any problem with it until now with "AJA", Decklink work perfect with the same system and it's lightning fast.

Regards
Mikael

Mikael
Grammofonbolaget


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Mikael B
Re: Problem with, Sound delay, Machina and Cineform XENA LHi
on Oct 7, 2009 at 10:59:31 pm

From Cineform

"Hi Mikael,

You need to select CineForm ASIO for your audio output in CS3 to maintain sync with the AJA card's video output. It doesn't matter what AJA says it supports in this case because you're using CineForm components to control the AJA card.

If you want to use AJA's native projects, CS4 is fine but you won't get CineForm files in real-time. There's some confusion about driver compatibility with the latest AJA and CineForm products. We ship the 7.0.0.46 version of their OEM driver. I'm not sure what's installed with AJA 4.1.3, but traditionally we have suggested that customers dual-boot their machines if they wish to use both CineForm and AJA native projects (and the Machina software).

You need to register "AJACaptureFilter.ax" if the LHi is not showing up in HDLink.

Please file a trouble ticket with support if you would like more comprehensive help, but the above should get you up and running.
"

I think we are on to something here, thanks Tim Kolb:-)
Regards
Mikael

Mikael
Grammofonbolaget


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Mikael B
Re: Problem with, Sound delay, Machina and Cineform XENA LHi
on Oct 13, 2009 at 12:48:38 am

I've got this answer from Cineform, will try it as fast as I get to my studio, hope this work:-)

"There's a problem. You shouldn't have CineForm OEM drivers and Machina running on the same boot. Unisnstall machina and install the oem drivers in program files\cineform\prospect hd\ajaio\hd\

for the asio issue, download and install asio4all from asio4all.com. Then reinstall prospect.
"

http://techblog.cineform.com/?p=2311

Regards
Mikael B

PS new trailer on vimeo http://www.vimeo.com/7034192


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