Io HD Units and DRIVERS!
Does anyone else find it a bit ridiculous as to the length of time it is taking AJA to produce new drivers for the Io HD units. If they work "with" apple as they state, then why is it taking so long. Presents a serious problem in work flow for those companies who upgraded and waiting.
Aja is not going to release a driver for a working product until it works correctly.
Apple writes some of the interconnect protocols for the IoHD.
I believe that the Apple Engineering team have been pretty busy of late with the new FCP, Snow's release and working on things like getting 90% of the xpress cards on the market to not kernel panic when inserted.
IMHO FCP 7 is not ready for PrimeTime productions just yet. Buy it and start working with it, but hold off on real projects that require output until the first update is out, the driver for the IoHD should be very close on the heels of that release.
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows for the Digitally Inclined
Also with the IoHD there is more than just a driver, since it will handle the encoding of the new prores codecs (which PCI cards don't) it takes a bit more work. I'm sure no one wants these drivers out more than AJA, but as Gary says, they will come out when they are ready, which is what we want. Later and right trumps Earlier and buggy.
We're supposed to accept the delay because Aja is expected to deliver a driver that works correctly but it's ok that Apple released an OS that doesn't?
I have had nothing but major issues with Snow Leopard and have rolled back on the machines I installed it on. Everyone that I've worked with has had the same issues (application crashes on save/open dialogs) and I have a fairly large sample size.
Funny though - I bought my IoHD about 2 months before the FCP 7 upgrade.
I've had nothing but bad experiences with the IoHD (and I'm a huge AJA fan). I intended on purchasing a new macbook pro for field capture with it and then found out about the lack of express slots on everything but the impractical 17"
I've also been unable to get it to be stable. I did all of the firmware updates and the thing was flat out buggy. I was considering returning it prior to the FCP 7 update but then I kept hearing about how wonderful it was and how the new drivers would add ProRes proxy and 4444 support so I decided to wait.
I'm still waiting.
Right now I'm considering it the worst purchase I've made in a long, long time. I should've gone with a Kona card for my tower and just dealt with field acquisition in a different way (KiPro...)
[Shaun Gish] "I've also been unable to get it to be stable. I did all of the firmware updates and the thing was flat out buggy."
How so? What were you trying to do? I have had great success with mine out in the field.
Did you call AJA support?
things like getting 90% of the xpress cards on the market to not kernel panic when inserted.
and add PCIe ESata cards to that list as well!
Dual 2.5 G5, IO, Kona LH, IO, Medea Raid, UL4D, NVidia 6800, 4Gig RAM
Nehalem Octocore 12 GB Ram, Nvidia card, MBP, MXO, MXO2 mini, Windows Vista Adobe Studio CS4, Vegas 9.0, Lightwave 9.6, Sound Forge 9, Acid Pro 7, Continuum 6, Boris Red 4, Combustion 2008, Sapphire Effects
The argument that it's okay to be late, because we'd rather have a driver that works? That's incredibly LAME. Imagine if Toro said please don't move in to your new house, because if you do, our lawnmower won't work for 2 months. Just give us time until we figure out how to make it cut your new lawn. That's unacceptable. You buy a product. It's supposed to work as advertised. I'm sorry, but you can't market yourself as a company who works hand in hand with Apple on everything and be this out of step. It's not like Snow Leopard was sprung on AJA last minute. It's clear they dropped the ball, and they are not willing to communicate with even a sliver of information to the very community that supports them, save for an unchanged line buried deep on their company website. At the very least come out with a frequently updated homepage note that keeps us posted on progress. This was handled very poorly and with every passing day with no progress or communication, the anger towards your company grows. Are you listening AJA?
>>Are you listening AJA?
Kevin, I'm not sure how long you have personally dealt with AJA, but
The IO HD works perfectly on 10.5 with FCP 6 and has for quite some time.
As far as them "listening", they do all the time and provide excellent customer
FCP 7 is not ready for prime time, and 10.6 is not even compatible with our XDCAM
software, so please give blame where blame is due (hint.. APPLE).
We are now a month in and they have not addressed many things, such as critical
problems with Color and many driver issues.
Hey, Will. I agree with you about AJA. They certainly do listen, and listen good. If the ioHD isn't ready I am sure they have very good reasons. I am curious, though, on your thoughts of why FCP7 is not ready for prime time? 10.6 certainly isn't, but FCP7 on Leopard? You aren't the first to say so, so I'm just wondering what reasons you have run in to. For me, FCP7 has been awesome, but we shoot a ton of AVC-I so it's been fully worth it for us.
Will, I agree Apple deserves some blame, but here is what I take issue with. A click away from "available soon" is the IOHD product page where I am told this-
"Co-developed with Apple, Io products work with Final Cut Pro to provide a seamless non-linear editing experience, with all the features of proprietary systems - but without the expense and hassles.
All of AJA's Io products have been co-developed with Apple for use with Final Cut Pro to deliver powerful video/audio capture, editing and video production - all in a single, integrated system. Each member of the family comes with special Final Cut Pro presets to facilitate ease of use."
If you want to place the blame on Apple, fine, but Aja should do it upfront on the product page, and let people know clearly that this product does not work with the the new Mac OS that is preloaded on every new machine. Further, it's not my job to manage the relationship with Aja and their "co-developer". I don't tell clients sitting in my suite, "I'm sorry, but you see, uh, the reason you can't see your project on the big screen or I can't output to tape is because of some software issue Aja and Apple are having." That's my problem, and they expect me to deal with it in a timely manner. Similarly, Aja's product, the IOHD doesn't work with Snow Leopard. A lot of other products now do. That's Aja's problem. I expect them to deal with it in a timely manner.
To be fair, I've gotten good service in the past from Aja, which is exactly why I've trusted their products to be an integral part of my suite. But I call it like I see it, and when a release for Kona comes out in days but IOHD is still a paperweight with the new OS a month after release and four months after Snow Leopard was unveiled to developers at WWDC, to me and a lot of other users that's AJa dropping the ball, plain and simple. And numerous unreplied to emails asking simply for a status update, a new similar product with a big spot on the homepage that supports Snow Leopard (IO Express) and a completely unchanged "available soon" message give me no indication that the ball, if not yet ready to be thrown, has at least been picked up. Maybe a few less than pleasant posts from customers on well respected community forums like the Cow will move this issue up the priority list, or at the very least, get AJA publicly communicating what the issue is, and how long it will take to resolve it, so I can plan my business accordingly. Because after a month of zero communication from Aja I've got to decide soon on whether I lose money, shut down, and deal with a backtrack install or make a phone call to Blackmagic or Motu. Or maybe Aja can overnight me an I/O express until the problem is fixed? My client and I need solutions not excuses.
[Kevin Paolillo] "Similarly, Aja's product, the IOHD doesn't work with Snow Leopard. A lot of other products now do. That's Aja's problem. I expect them to deal with it in a timely manner. "
The flip side means that there are a huge number of products from companies like Sony and Panasonic that do not work with Snow Leopard either. Have you tried an SxS card, a P2 card or many express card based 3rd party products from companies like Duel and Sonnett? None of them work either.
Look - the fact is it was your choice to jump into new products without properly researching whether or not they were ready for your edit bay. No one forced you to pay for the upgrade for FCS3 or $29 for snow leopard and no one is to blame for your problem other than you. You should have never installed new software versions on a working system unless you are prepared to have something go terribly wrong, or at least not work properly, that is the nature of every .0 revision of software I have ever seen.
That does not mean we do not feel your pain, but I made sure that I can at least use my tools by having both OS's on my machines - just in case.
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows for the Digitally Inclined
You're kind of missing my point. I didn't choose to install FCS3 - my clients did - when they hand you a FCP 7 project file and expect you to get it to tape and your workflow has been up to this point based on the IoHD it's a very awkward process to say "do you mind going back to your shop to export a version of the timeline that I can work with?"
I have emailed and called AJA - both times they have talked to me (and I've dealt with them since the original IO came out - they've always picked up the phone). The problem I have is that I shouldn't have to pick up the phone or call - they should be more proactive about letting people know where they are at so that we don't all get frustrated.
The biggest issue I have overall is that when I actually did talk to AJA I told them that I had tried to output from a FCS3 system and was able to hear audio but not see picture and wondered if there was any sort of workaround and the response was literally "well, you've gotten further than we have..."
That's not encouraging when all I did was plug it in to a laptop running FCS3 (this was about 3 weeks ago).
I think the lack of communication is frustrating because it seems to imply that their other products are going forward and that there's a chance that the IoHD may get left in the dust. Let's put it this way - if it's this difficult to write the drivers for a unit that is so dependent on the ProRes spec, why waste the time (from a business perspective) especially when you consider how old the IoHD is and how well some of their new products address a lot of the market that the IoHD was targeted at. I mean if I had it to do over again I would buy a KiPro and a Kona LHi - even though the costs are considerably different, you have a dedicated acquisition setup that doesn't require a host machine and a way to output from what you should be outputting from anyway (a tower).
It just all feels like they are going to drop the product and aren't willing to let us know yet... I'm probably way wrong... but that's what lack of communication does to consumer trust...even if they have great support 99% of the time.
[Shaun Gish] "they should be more proactive about letting people know where they are at so that we don't all get frustrated. "
Sorry, Shaun, but it does say right on the support page for the ioHD, use FCS2. I believe it would be up to you to search out the system requirements for your setup, not the other way around.
If your clients give you a ProRes file to put on tape, the ioHD will work if you have FCS2.
[Shaun Gish] "and the response was literally "well, you've gotten further than we have..." "
So that should tell you that it's not ready yet. When it is, they will release a driver. Really, they will.
[Shaun Gish] "I think the lack of communication is frustrating because it seems to imply that their other products are going forward and that there's a chance that the IoHD may get left in the dust."
Speculating won't get very far.[Shaun Gish] "I mean if I had it to do over again I would buy a KiPro and a Kona LHi - even though the costs are considerably different, you have a dedicated acquisition setup that doesn't require a host machine and a way to output from what you should be outputting from anyway (a tower). "
Then it sounds like your needs have changed since you started down the path of your career. You know how much useless stuff I have sitting around in all the nooks and crannies of my office and house? It's all old, it all doesn't work. At least with the ioHD, you have a working product that is relatively new, but you need the proper system to run it which you are unwilling to provide. Have you ever been through a product's major update cycle? Did you go from Panther to Tiger to Leopard, or better yet, OS9 to OS10? There were HUGE waiting times. Adobe didn't release a working version of AE that ran in OSX for a year or more. Snow Leopard and FCS3 have major changes under the hood, and sometimes it takes a while for developers to track down and get those changes updated. Please be patient, AJA will provide.
You obviously don't read very well.
I have a major client that I do online edits for - this means that they do the initial editorial work and hand over a PROJECT FILE to work from. Not a ProRes export... if that were the case - no big deal. But I actually have to work with what they give me... so right now I have to use a laptop running FCS3 to do the online work (which is painful at best) and then export for my tower to output via the IoHD. And before anyone says "you can do anything on a laptop..." this is a major network show with 10 cam multicam clips - it's a beast of a project that I have to cut on a laptop or jump through hoops to get the client to export a version that I can use.
I've said nothing about being unwilling to provide the system that the IoHD requires - to the contrary - I HAVE NOT upgraded my main system specifically because of the issues with IoHD. Also - NONE of my issues have to do with Snow Leopard - it's a complete and total mess - my issues deal with FCS3. I could care less right now about Snow Leopard - I just need to be able to open an FSC3 project file without a bunch of workarounds when they are provided and use them appropriately.
My needs haven't changed at all - I want to acquire stuff in ProRes as painlessly as possible and I want to edit in ProRes as painlessly as possible. That was why I bought the IoHD... and right now the editing part isn't happening so well with my clients demands. I don't mind the wait as long as there is communication.
It's a bit frustrating that you bring up a bunch of points that have nothing to do with my post and then try to act like I don't know what I'm doing. I have been in the broadcast business long enough and I own a very successful software development company so I don't really feel like I need to post a list of achievements to vent about a PR screw up by a company that has a product in high demand. I definitely don't want to bore you with all of my major product update cycle stories and I find it a bit odd that you're so feverishly defending them. It is STUPID that they haven't just said something to the effect of "Hey - we haven't forgotten you - we're about a month out." That's really all we are asking - I'd love to be able to tell my client that all of the added time spent working on my laptop instead of in my edit suite will hopefully end in 4 weeks... instead of just saying "I don't know".
Anyway - this has become a very pointless and frustrating post. I don't plan on hating on AJA any more - I will wait for them to update the drivers/firmware and I will continue using the product. I just wish that people wouldn't just blindly say "they're working on it - deal with it" - the situation flat out sucks and they can fix it by just being more open with where they are at. (Look at RED and how well they handle firmware issues - they may not deal with it as quickly as most people want but they do tell you what the heck is going on)
[Shaun Gish] "You obviously don't read very well. "
huked on foniks werked four me.
10 Cam multi-cam on a laptop? Damn, dude. 5 is bad enough, 10 must be like molasses.
I don't see why you can't keep a copy of FCS3 on a separate boot drive and OS like everyone else. Edit on FCS3, export a ProRes movie when you're done, boot in to your other OS that is qualified for the ioHD and layoff the self-contained movie. Pretty simple and will cause you like 45 seconds of downtime while the computer restarts between boot drives. Seems pretty easy and doable to me, but I guess it's logical to blame AJA for not spelling that out for you on their website.
[Shaun Gish] " I have been in the broadcast business long enough and I own a very successful software development company so I don't really feel like I need to post a list of achievements to vent about a PR screw up by a company that has a product in high demand."
Oh, so then you know very well the pains of an OS update. Do you also develop hardware along with your software?
I'm not looking for your achievements, just trying to show you reality and it sounds like you know it.
[Shaun Gish] "I definitely don't want to bore you with all of my major product update cycle stories and I find it a bit odd that you're so feverishly defending them."
I'm feeling pretty good today, thanks. No fevers.
[Shaun Gish] ""Hey - we haven't forgotten you - we're about a month out."
Here's a screen cap from AJA.com:
[Shaun Gish] "I just wish that people wouldn't just blindly say "they're working on it - deal with it" "
It's much better than they aren't working on it, go spend another 4 grand in gear. Unless of course, you want to do that, it will greatly help the economy.
[Shaun Gish] "(Look at RED and how well they handle firmware issues - they may not deal with it as quickly as most people want but they do tell you what the heck is going on)"
See screen cap.
I am truly sorry for your frustration. By you knowing the merits of very successful software development, it would seem that you would be one of the patient ones. Perhaps you don't develop hardware as well, maybe it's a bit different. There are solutions out there that you can implement in the times of transition, you just have to see through your frustration and take a step back and asses the tools you have at hand.
Why couldn't they post a beta version and we could be testing it for them in the field. Certainly if its only one, maybe two weeks away, they must have a beta version ready. We have been editing with snow leopard and fcs3 since they came out. Together they seem to be stable and are working fine with our drives, cards and even our P2 Store device. I shoot regularly on a PDW 700 and have no problem ingesting full 10-bit XDCAM into the system and editing. So currently the only "boat anchor" if you will is the IoHD box which has left us dead with projects we ran through it prior to upgrade.
The upgraded FCS and Snow Leopard was not a big secret. If AJA is working with APPLE, then this should have been ready to go in a REASONABLE amount of time. I can not wait any longer and the lack of consistent communication has forced us to go another direction with our accessories. Another two weeks would start costing us clients.
[Russell Weston] "The upgraded FCS and Snow Leopard was not a big secret. If AJA is working with APPLE, then this should have been ready to go in a REASONABLE amount of time. "
WHAT??? You mean APPLE didn't break SxS, P2 or the 3//4 express card support in Snow? And that none of those are fixed either?
Russell I'm sorry you can complain all you want- there was no necessity to update working edit suites with new 7.0 release software and a new OS and not anything you say changes that simple truth.
Every head here on the Cow has stated the same- Do not upgrade suites until the .1 version of a new release.
And How does a production company loose clients because of lack of upgrading your software- The wise post person would have gone with a dual boot scenario to "save his arse"
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows for the Digitally Inclined
Gary, yes, mea culpa, perhaps I shouldn't have upgraded so soon, that's clear, and I usually don't. But I had a few down days, which thankfully have been rare. I did my research on the things I needed most, checked to make sure drivers were available, saw Kona's driver update come out, figured IO HD's would follow in a few days because I trust AJA to deliver on such things because of their good reputation, and made the switch. And like you, I have a backup machine that I did not upgrade just in case, although one quickly realizes what else is missing on the backup, and how SLOW it is compared to the 8 core so that is its own set of issues.
I'm guessing a few of the more influential folks here, you among them, (your posts have helped me many times, thank you) have a special relationship with AJA that they'd rather not take them to task publicly. If so, I understand that, I have a few suppliers that help me out on occasion and I'd be hesitant to say publicly, yes they dropped the ball.
But exactly how long is long enough to wait on a driver update until it becomes unreasonable, especially when their other signature product has a driver update in days? And don't you think it's a little disconcerting to be waiting for an I/O HD update while you watch the Snow Leopard compatible I/O Express begin shipping?
Frankly, I'm surprised someone from Aja hasn't come on here and shed a little light. (Yes Jeremy_ I have called and written, and "we're working on it" is all I've gotten.
I contrast this experience with a similar recent experience with the CoreMelt team. They didn't have it all figured out, but they were giving me beta solutions to try (as Russell Weston's fine post in this thread suggests) providing updates, checking back to see if it worked. In other words, CoreMelt had an issue and they were COMMUNICATING. It's not the lack of a driver that is frustrating the masses. It's the lack of communication.
[Kevin Paolillo] "'m guessing a few of the more influential folks here, you among them, (your posts have helped me many times, thank you) have a special relationship with AJA that they'd rather not take them to task publicly. "
Kevin-first thanks for the kind words.
Second-Yes I am lucky to have a special relationship with AJA, and I work incredibly hard to maintain it. However, contrary to public notion, I have much less influence that most people think, and some of AjA people still answer my calls.
I don't have to take AJA to task publicly- I get to go "ZELIN" on them in person (sans hair, bob has me beat there). So -Yes the driver update has taken longer that anyone thought it might- AND No I do not know when it will be released (I really do not know - I'm not just saying that)
FYI -Last month at IBC the product manager and I both took turns fighting the hardware for an almost an entire day over the issue, finally showing an IoHD attached to a desktop running 10.5.8 / FCS2 from a clone drive brought along as a spare.
SO YES- AJA is acutely aware with the issue, but some fundamental changes in device protocols and communication under Snow require that care be taken to assure that when the driver is released it works properly- it has to work for all versions of FCP and all 3 current versions of the OS also. This is not a small task, when you think that between 2 versions of FCP and 3 OS versions there are something over 500,000 different items that need to be checked and rechecked to see if it functions as advertised, for every version. This is just not as simple a task as people think.
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows for the Digitally Inclined
Gary, understood. For the record, I've tried the rest, and no knock on the other brands in the same space, but to me, AJA does what they do better than the others. They set the standard, which is why I'm willing to pay a bit more to get the goods, and also why I've come to expect better. I can deal with a wait to get it right, and can appreciate the complexity of the task. But keeping folks informed is FAST AND EASY. It goes a long way to helping their customers manage the process. That I've learned more about what's happening in one post from you than I have in a month at aja.com or from an aja rep is not a good look for them. They need to stay out in front of it. When you get to the point that people on the Cow are starting threads with just the name of your product followed by a question mark or an exclamation point, it might be time to get a little more proactive....
This whole situation is getting more and more ridiculous every day. No way is there any reason that customers should have to wait this long for updates to what is suppose to be one of the companies flagship items. I have been through the upgrades of all sorts since the birth of nonlinear with the EMC and this is by far the worst i have ever seem.
Really? Have you ever talked to ProTools guys? They are always way behind.
The product works great as sold and recommended, with FCP 6 and Leopard. Everyone wants this to be fixed, no one more than AJA, but as stated time and time again it has to be right before it does anyone any good.
CineWave took forever to come out with FCP3 drivers. Hell, FCP3 took forever to be compatible with OS X. There are way around all of this, yes they are a pain, no one likes it but it is part of our world. There is a lot more to the Io pushing all this video through FW than a PCIe card. So we have to wait, the only options are to stay put with FCP6 and 10.5, buy something else, upgrade and have a non-working system.
Slow and steady win the race with our gear.
Yea - that pretty much sums up my issue... Just communicate with the customers and we won't be nearly as pissed off. The biggest issue for me is that alot of my work is onlining clients offline work and several of my clients are using the new version of FCS... I have to jump thru hoops to get everything to work just so I can finish their edit and output to tape. It's incredibly frustrating and all I really want is a rough timeline... is it going to be 3 more weeks or 3 months?
[Kevin Paolillo] "Are you listening AJA?"
Have you picked up the phone and called them? They have real people that will talk to you.
Whew!!! Glad I found this thread. My church is about to purchase 4 new Mac Towers, 3 HPX300s', Panasonic AS400n switcher, a Kona card and an AJA IO HD, based on my recomendations.
Now I have to figure out what we need to replace all the features on the IO HD at similar price point. I'm thinking BMD multibridge pro. We were planning on using the IO HD, not just for capture, but as a mini router to re direct HD source to a projector and down rez and send out to the churches SD TVs throughout the building. the IO HD seemed perfect for this.
I'm not sure we can get 10.5 and FCP 6 on new machines from Apple.
btw, I'm sure AJA is doing everything they can to fix this issue. this is costing them sales, so... Not angry at them at all, but have to make some hard decisions in the next few weeks.
Even if they knew about the problems, they would have been under NDA, and it's probably a lot harder to fix then most of us realize.
I'm hoping this will work out sooner than later, but based on Apples' past record, don't bet on it.
[Joe Carney] "but as a mini router to re direct HD source to a projector and down rez and send out to the churches SD TVs throughout the building."
Sounds like you might want the stand alone FS1.
OK, I'll check that out, it also seems the Kona 3 with the K3 breakout box might do most of what we need too. Just no HDMI out, but that can be remedied with a mini converter.
The LHi might do it too. Kona3 is digital in only (SDI/AES)
We have a Yamaha mixing console that can send AES if needed.
Sorry, a bit late chiming in!
Please be assured that AJA completely understands the need, and we very much appreciate your patience. We are working very hard to release solid next-gen FCS3 and Snow Leopard compatible Io HD software. As always, we only release when it's ready, and we are working with our core partners to ensure the quality, features, and performance you expect.
Stay tuned! We will post here on the Cow, our website (http://www.aja.com) and elsewhere when the driver software is available for download, which should be very soon.
President, AJA Video Systems
Here it is:
Does anyone here think the Apple Color/ioHD issue will ever be solved? I just bought one hoping to color grade with Color only to find out it won't work. It looks like a great unit but this is a real deal breaker. May have to sell it.