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Another FCP_ioHD monitoring problem

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Sam Roberts
Another FCP_ioHD monitoring problem
on Jan 4, 2009 at 4:44:11 pm

I am outputting from the FCP timeline into the iOHD and then through an HDMI cable to a new Panasonic 1080P plasma.

In FCP I have a sequence preset set to AJA iO HD 1080p 24 Apple ProRes 422 (HQ)
and my video playback is set to AJA iO HD 1080p 24 ProRes 422.
In the FCP VIEW menu the settings are: external video all frames. Video playback AJA iO HD 1080p 24 ProRes 422.

The shots in the sequence properties are: size 1GB Vid rate 24fps frame size 1920x1080. Compressor Apple ProRes 422.

The problem is when I monitor the timeline output 1/3 of the screen is a black bar with the shot itself shoved over to the right of the screen with only the first 2/3 of the shot visible.

If I switch the playback output to 1080i the picture becomes normal and it moves as I scrub, but I can't get any real time playback.

Any ideas?


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Another FCP_ioHD monitoring problem
on Jan 4, 2009 at 7:56:05 pm

Your footage should be 23.976, not 24.0 and your putput shold be set to 23.976 (23.98 as it's known in FCP) not 24.0

Jeremy


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gary adcock
Re: Another FCP_ioHD monitoring problem
on Jan 4, 2009 at 8:54:56 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Your footage should be 23.976, not 24.0 and your putput shold be set to 23.976 (23.98 as it's known in FCP) not 24.0
"


AND you should be using the PsF setting NOT the P.

1080 consumer displays cannot handle 1080 as true P- the 1080 format is Progressive Segmented Frame or PsF





gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows

Inside look at the IoHD
http://library.creativecow.net/articles/adcock_gary/AJAIOHD.php




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Sam Roberts
Re: Another FCP_ioHD monitoring problem
on Jan 4, 2009 at 9:50:40 pm

Does the original footage need to be shot at 23.98 or is it just the FCP Sequence and Video playback presets need to be set to this? Or all three?



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Another FCP_ioHD monitoring problem
on Jan 4, 2009 at 9:52:48 pm

What is your orig footage?


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Sam Roberts
Re: Another FCP_ioHD monitoring problem
on Jan 4, 2009 at 11:27:27 pm

Hi Jeremy. The original footage is RED One 24fps 4K (4096x2048) transcoded using RED's proprietary app (REDCINE)down to a 1920x1080 Quicktime using the Apple ProRes 422 codec.



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Another FCP_ioHD monitoring problem
on Jan 5, 2009 at 12:54:53 am

Mmm, Gary can probably help out more a bit on that as I have yet to work with Red footage, but are you sure it's 24.0 material and not 23.976?

Can you manually change the frame rate in RedCine when you make your files or do you simply keep it as 'current' from the r3d file itself?

Jeremy


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gary adcock
Re: Another FCP_ioHD monitoring problem
on Jan 5, 2009 at 12:35:25 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "but are you sure it's 24.0 material and not 23.976"

if it is 24.0 do a conform pass in CinemaTools to get back to 23.98, 24p video as truly progressive is not played out on most consumer grade sets

While RED footage is shot at true P - your display may not handle it- most do not - try the 1080 23.98 Psf settings

gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows

Inside look at the IoHD
http://library.creativecow.net/articles/adcock_gary/AJAIOHD.php




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Sam Roberts
Re: Another FCP_ioHD monitoring problem
on Jan 5, 2009 at 1:23:31 pm

Hi guys, I actually went back and double checked the frame speed on the camera and it was 24fps. I can though, shoot at 23.98 and I will do another test today shooting at that frame speed. I did try the 23.98psf video output settings on both FCP and the same inputs on the io HD with no luck. I have a support request in at AJA so hopefully they may have a few ideas.

It's too bad because the picture I do get on the plasma screen, even though it is only 2/3 there, is stunning and it will play back from the timeline in real time as opposed to the 1080i settings which do give me a full screen picture (also beautiful) but no real time playback.

Thanks for your suggestions.
Sam



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Another FCP_ioHD monitoring problem
on Jan 5, 2009 at 3:21:15 pm

As Gary says, you can run your 24.0 QT movies through Cinema Tools and conform them to 23.98. That will allow real time playback.

If you are planning on monitoring with a consumer TV, then shooting and posting at 23.98 will be a much easier workflow for you, especially if you have to any versioning for NTSC or HD tape.

Jeremy


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gary adcock
Re: Another FCP_ioHD monitoring problem
on Jan 5, 2009 at 3:38:27 pm

"If you are planning on monitoring with a consumer TV, then shooting and posting at 23.98 will be a much easier workflow for you, especially if you have to any versioning for NTSC or HD tape. "


As long as you make sure that your consumer unit plays 24p content.

My guess is your plasma's HDMI is not the 1.3 version so there for cannot playout 24p materials
(neither 24.0 or 23.98 will work here)





gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows

Inside look at the IoHD
http://library.creativecow.net/articles/adcock_gary/AJAIOHD.php




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Sam Roberts
Re: Another FCP_ioHD monitoring problem
on Jan 5, 2009 at 5:18:22 pm

While I wait for an answer from AJA I just had what is probably a whacky idea. As I said I can get real time playback at 1080P 24 (FCP Video out preset) the problem is the picture only fills 2/3 of the screen.

What if I plug a computer RGB cable into the back of the TV and then buy an RGB to HDMI adaptor. When you plug a computer into the RGB input on the TV it will allow you to center the picture using controls on the remote. The PC input is the only TV input that allows this. If I can get a 1080P signal out of the AJA with an adapter plug and get it onto the screen, maybe then I can center the picture and that would solve the problem. Doubtful...but worth a try.



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Another FCP_ioHD monitoring problem
on Jan 5, 2009 at 5:24:24 pm

[Sam Roberts] "While I wait for an answer from AJA I just had what is probably a whacky idea. As I said I can get real time playback at 1080P 24 (FCP Video out preset) the problem is the picture only fills 2/3 of the screen.
"


You should be able to get a 1080p picture when your footage is 23.98 and not 24.0. Just test it by changing ONE CLIP to 23.98 and then use a 23.98 output setting and just see if it works.

Jeremy


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gary adcock
Re: Another FCP_ioHD monitoring problem
on Jan 5, 2009 at 6:10:44 pm

"[Sam Roberts] "While I wait for an answer from AJA I just had what is probably a whacky idea. As I said I can get real time playback at 1080P 24 (FCP Video out preset) the problem is the picture only fills 2/3 of the screen.
"
You should be able to get a 1080p picture when your footage is 23.98 and not 24.0. Just test it by changing ONE CLIP to 23.98 and then use a 23.98 output setting and just see if it works.

Jeremy
"



Guys Guys Guys.
I got $10. that this is a signal issue with the HDMI not being able to carry a 24p signal to the display- I do not think that display can handle 24p material over HDMI.

Please try with the component out of the IoHD - if it works with a 3 wire connection- then I am correct that the display is the issue.






gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows

Inside look at the IoHD
http://library.creativecow.net/articles/adcock_gary/AJAIOHD.php




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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Another FCP_ioHD monitoring problem
on Jan 5, 2009 at 6:20:05 pm

[gary adcock] "I got $10."

You're on! :)

If it's a "1080p" monitor, I bet it can.

Jeremy


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Sam Roberts
Re: Another FCP_ioHD monitoring problem
on Jan 5, 2009 at 10:01:22 pm

Well for some bizzare reason the computer input on the plasma is VGA RGB. If it was DVI-D my plan might have worked. I didn't think they made VGA inputs and ouputs on computers and electronics anymore. The damn plasma is only a few months old...go figure.

Anyway, I did change fps out and it didn't help.

AJA support recommended the following settings:

"In FCP > Audio Video Settings, set the Video Playback to 1080i2997(non HQ)
also set the Primary Format of the Format tab in the IoHD Control Panel to
1080i2997, make sure on the HDMI tab it is set to Primary

In FCP > System Settings > Playback Control Tab > set RT to Safe > Video
Quality to High > Frame Rate to Full"

This setting does give me a full screen picture. This would be fine except it won't play back in real time although it does move when I scrub the timeline. When I hit play the picture freezes.

I'm awaiting further news from AJA support. I'll keep you posted.



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Another FCP_ioHD monitoring problem
on Jan 5, 2009 at 10:07:44 pm

OK. Have you changed the frame rate of the clip yet from 24 to 23.98? Unless you have done that, you are spinning your wheels.

Jeremy


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Bob Zelin
Re: Another FCP_ioHD monitoring problem
on Jan 6, 2009 at 2:11:57 am

this is a funny thread. It should be put on the HD Hi End forum.

23, 24, 25, 50, 60 - why can't it just work ! What are all these damn settings with Cinema Tools, Compressor, Playback setting - why can't I just hit the play button !


funny funny funny.
Just wait - 3K, 5K - this is just the beginning. NAB is in 4 months.

Bob zelin




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Sam Roberts
Re: Another FCP_ioHD monitoring problem
on Jan 6, 2009 at 2:59:21 am

Jeremy....yes I did change the frame rate...it didn't help




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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Another FCP_ioHD monitoring problem
on Jan 6, 2009 at 4:38:39 am

[Sam Roberts] "Jeremy....yes I did change the frame rate...it didn't help "

Of the clip it self or just the video output? You only mentioned the video output.


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gary adcock
Re: Another FCP_ioHD monitoring problem
on Jan 6, 2009 at 2:25:13 pm

AJA support recommended the following settings:

"In FCP > Audio Video Settings, set the Video Playback to 1080i2997(non HQ)
also set the Primary Format of the Format tab in the IoHD Control Panel to
1080i2997, make sure on the HDMI tab it is set to Primary

In FCP > System Settings > Playback Control Tab > set RT to Safe > Video
Quality to High > Frame Rate to Full"


Why yes this would need to be rendered prior to playback since it is Safe RT- don't you see the big RED render indicator on the timeline?

when it is rendered does it play correctly?




gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows

Inside look at the IoHD
http://library.creativecow.net/articles/adcock_gary/AJAIOHD.php




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Sam Roberts
Re: Another FCP_ioHD monitoring problem
on Jan 6, 2009 at 3:08:39 pm

Jeremy,

Sorry, I misunderstood. I thought you were talking about the FCP playback frame rate.

I'm going to do some camera tests today using both the 23.98 and the 29.97 frame rates and see if it is indeed the 24fps frame rate of the clips on the timeline that is causing the problems.



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Another FCP_ioHD monitoring problem
on Jan 6, 2009 at 5:06:05 pm

Okay, Sam. This is what you need to do.

You need to take one of your 24.0 clips, right click on it and choose Open With > CInema Tools.

Click the confrom button and choose 23.98 and then quit Cinema Tools.

Now, import that one clip in to FCP and make a new sequence. Drag that clip to the sequence and hit yes when FCP asks if you'd like to change the seq settings to match the clip.

Now, choose the 1080psf23.98 ProRes setting from the easy setup menu by hitting control-q.

You should see picture.

If that doesn't work, then 1080psf23.98 doesn't work on either your monitor or the ioHD. You can then change the video output to 1080i29.97 10bit and you should definitely get real time picture then.

Jeremy


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Sam Roberts
Re: Another FCP_ioHD monitoring problem
on Jan 6, 2009 at 10:35:11 pm

Jeremy,

The problem is fixed and I want to thank you for pointing me in the right direction. I really appreciate it.

I shot some test footage at 23.97fps instead of 24fps and these clips play back on the timeline at full screen in real time with the FCP/AJA io settings at 1080i 29.97.

It was the 24fps that the original footage was shot at that was causing the problem.

Thanks again.

Sam



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Another FCP_ioHD monitoring problem
on Jan 6, 2009 at 10:58:02 pm

No worries.

Glad you're up and running!



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Sam Roberts
Re: Another FCP_ioHD monitoring problem
on Jan 6, 2009 at 10:36:47 pm

Jeremy,

The problem is fixed and I want to thank you for pointing me in the right direction. I really appreciate it.

I shot some test footage at 23.97fps instead of 24fps and these clips play back on the timeline at full screen in real time with the FCP/AJA io settings at 1080i 29.97.

It was the 24fps that the original footage was shot at that was causing the problem.

Thanks again.

Sam



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gary adcock
Re: Another FCP_ioHD monitoring problem
on Jan 6, 2009 at 2:18:38 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "You're on! :)

If it's a "1080p" monitor, I bet it can."



not with HDMI....
not always....

Component is a different story




gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows

Inside look at the IoHD
http://library.creativecow.net/articles/adcock_gary/AJAIOHD.php




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Sam Roberts
Re: Another FCP_ioHD monitoring problem
on Jan 6, 2009 at 3:16:36 pm

Gary,

I don't think at this point it is the Panasonic because last night I plugged the AJA io HD into one of my Samsung computer monitors and got the exact same problems- left hand side black bar at 1080P 24 with only 2/3 of the picture on the screen but WITH real time play back from the timeline. And a full screen at 1080i 29.97 but NO real time play back although the picture moves when scrubbing the timeline.



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Sam Roberts
Re: Another FCP_ioHD monitoring problem
on Jan 6, 2009 at 10:39:52 pm

Jeremy,

The problem is fixed and I want to thank you for pointing me in the right direction. I really appreciate it.

I shot some test footage at 23.97fps instead of 24fps and these clips play back on the timeline at full screen in real time with the FCP/AJA io settings at 1080i 29.97.

It was the 24fps that the original footage was shot at that was causing the problem.

Thanks again.

Sam




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gary adcock
Re: Another FCP_ioHD monitoring problem
on Jan 6, 2009 at 11:21:14 pm

[Sam Roberts] "full screen at 1080i 29.97"

Guys.
let me try this again.

your output works at 29.97 interlaced because that is the standard that is supported over the HDMI port.

If you would switch the output to be 23.98 P (not PsF) it will work- this is the same with Aja's Hi5 converter where the HDMI ONLY supports True Progressive outputs for 24 frame content. ( Sam if you are not sure what I am talking about search here under my name + PsF.

[Sam Roberts] "NO real time play back although the picture moves when scrubbing the timeline."

yeah- posted this before- you are in Safe RT- if there is not much if any RT- if you have a red render bar over your timeline, the clips will need to be rendered.

If they have been rendered there should be proper playback.

When this does not work without a render bar, then there is a settings mismatch somewhere in your setup.




gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows

Inside look at the IoHD
http://library.creativecow.net/articles/adcock_gary/AJAIOHD.php




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