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Carsten Orlt
esata speeds with MacBookPro
on Sep 3, 2008 at 2:53:59 am

Hi guys
Just doubling checking with who runs a MacBookPro and eSata card with their ioHD.
What is you max drive throughput reading from Aja System test and a 2 drive raid 0?
I get about 100MB write and 115Mb read.

Thanks a million!


Carsten


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philippe Domengie
Re: esata speeds with MacBookPro
on Sep 3, 2008 at 10:13:09 am

Hi Carsten,

I've exactly the same throughput with a 2To Raid0 Esata system (2x1To disks in a EnhanceBox 4 x 3.5" SATA II HDs E4 PM system) connected to a Macbook Pro 2.4.

I wonder why it is so "slow" as each disk (Hitachi 7K1000) is able to deliver almost the same throughput, SATAII connection is 300MB/s and expresscard is a one lane PCIe supporting 250MB/s...

I would like to know what kind of throughput I could reach if I was connecting my "Raid box" to a Mac Pro.

Anyway, it is really enough to work fluently with 1080p25 ProRes and the IoHD.



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Carsten Orlt
Re: esata speeds with MacBookPro
on Sep 3, 2008 at 10:43:27 am

Hi Phillipe

Great, many thanks for confirming my results. Specially because I use Seagate 1Gb drives in a noName chassis, ergo very different hardware.

Bob mentioned here before that the MacBookPro can't be any faster because that's just how the MacBook works (or the express34 bus)

And yes would be interesting to know how a 2 drive eSata Raid 0 performs on a MacPro. Anybody?

Cheers

Carsten


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Alan Lacey
Re: esata speeds with MacBookPro
on Sep 3, 2008 at 7:24:46 pm

According to the AJA disk speed utility I get 110MB/s write and 130MB/s read on my Firmtek 2 disk raid0 dual sata via the express card in MBP.

Alan



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Bob Zelin
Re: esata speeds with MacBookPro
on Sep 4, 2008 at 12:34:44 am

unless something changed very recently, you are NOT going to get the amazing speeds that these drive arrays are capable of, on a MAC Book Pro. You are limited to the buss speed of the 34 slot. I don't care if the array does 600mb/sec - it ain't gonna happen on a MAC Book Pro.

Want these super speeds - get a MAC Pro, and stick the host card from a Cal Digit HD Pro, Dulce ProDQ or Maxx EVO2 into the MAC Pro, and you will get these speeds. Not on a MAC Book Pro (sorry !).

Bob Zelin




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philippe Domengie
Re: esata speeds with MacBookPro
on Sep 4, 2008 at 11:50:05 am

Hi Bob,

You say that : "You are limited to the buss speed of the 34 slot. I don't care if the array does 600mb/sec - it ain't gonna happen on a MAC Book Pro."

Whao ! Maybe other people like me had to choice between a mobile solution versus a desktop one within a limited budget. And IoHD is a mobile product. So what is the problem to try to have the best of every dollar spent?

As you say, speed is limited by the 34 slot, but it is a PCIe one lane, 250 MB/s capable... So I'm really disappointed to not reach 200-220MB/s with a 2 disks raid0 array.
Is it a driver problem? If yes, driver of the express esata card, of pcie component on motherboard?

Regards,
Philippe.



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Mark Beazley
Re: esata speeds with MacBookPro
on Sep 4, 2008 at 4:36:03 pm

I would think it is more of a disk limitation...

-mark



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Bob Zelin
Re: esata speeds with MacBookPro
on Sep 4, 2008 at 6:44:36 pm

the limitation is the buss speed of the MAC Book Pro. 2 eSATA drives, even in a MAC Pro tower, can only do about 120mb/sec, not 200mb/sec (where the hell do you get this information from anyway ?).

Money has nothing to do with it - and your MAC Book Pro costs just as much money as a MAC Pro tower (dual 2.8). In a port multipler chassis, FIVE eSATA drives can do a MAXIMUM speed of 220mb/sec. If you think that you will get 200mb/sec with only 2 drives, you are fooling yourself. With SAS/SATA host controllers in a MAC Pro, the same 5 drives will do about 300mb/sec.

Everyone has a fantasy of what they can do. To do it all, it costs money.

Bob Zelin




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Philippe Domengie
Re: esata speeds with MacBookPro
on Sep 4, 2008 at 8:46:50 pm

Dear Bob,

Thanks for your precisions.

Firstly, I'm still disappointed about PM enclosure performance. I was wondering that 2 drives (each delivers 100MB/s into the PM before Raid0 stripping) will perform better than just a gain of 10 or 20MB/s.

For the 220 MB/S limitation (maximum speed you're talking about) I agree with you to the 250MB/s PCIe 1x buss limitation.

For internal drives into a MacPro, I've read you can do far better than 300MB/s, even with Apple Raid software (disk utility), ie : http://www.hardmac.com/niouzcontenu.php?date=2008-02-25 (it's the 4th news, the one with diagram)

At last, I insist about money. Money is always important for those with which that misses. And I do not see how it bothers you that I try to have the best from my gear.
I've used a Powermac dual 1Ghz during 5 years before buying my MacBook Pro. Before I sold it, it became a "frankenstein" boosted computer if you see what I mean.

Regards

Philippe Domengie.



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Bob Zelin
Re: esata speeds with MacBookPro
on Sep 5, 2008 at 12:50:03 am

I will reply to each of your comments -

you write -
Firstly, I'm still disappointed about PM enclosure performance. I was wondering that 2 drives (each delivers 100MB/s into the PM before Raid0 stripping) will perform better than just a gain of 10 or 20MB/s.

REPLY - I do not know where you get your information from. I have NEVER seen a single eSATA drive do greater than 70mb/sec. Where do you get the information that you can gegt 100mb/sec from each drive ? You are incorrect. 2 drives in a MAC Pro (internally) will do about 128mb/sec if they are stripped RAID 0.


you write -
For the 220 MB/S limitation (maximum speed you're talking about) I agree with you to the 250MB/s PCIe 1x buss limitation.

REPLY - I NEVER said this. I said there was a 120mb/sec limitation, not a 220mb/sec limitation. I am very familiar with Sonnet, Cal Digit, Firmtek, and Dulce port multiplier chassis that all use 5 eSATA drives stripped RAID 0. They max out at 220mb/sec, and this is not sustained performance. To get these speeds, you need to be in a x4 slot or greater. If you are in a x1 slot, you will not attain these speeds.

you write -
For internal drives into a MacPro, I've read you can do far better than 300MB/s, even with Apple Raid software (disk utility), ie : http://www.hardmac.com/niouzcontenu.php?date=2008-02-25 (it's the 4th news, the one with diagram)

REPLY -
I don't give a crap what this reviewer writes. I do this every day, all day long. The performance you will get, using video industry
standard tests like AJA Kona System Test, and Blackmagic Speed Test will not give you these results.

Bob Zelin




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Philippe Domengie
Re: esata speeds with MacBookPro
on Sep 5, 2008 at 3:08:37 pm

Hi Bob !

Some point of this debate are still difficult to understand for me :

- when I talk about 220MB/s limitation, I make reference to this part of your post : "In a port multiplier chassis, FIVE eSATA drives can do a MAXIMUM speed of 220mb/sec".
Is it a limitation of the PM chip inside the enclosure? Or the same PM enclosure with the same 5 drives stripped would have better performance connected to a MacPro ?

- you said : "REPLY - I do not know where you get your information from. I have NEVER seen a single eSATA drive do greater than 70mb/sec. Where do you get the information that you can gegt 100mb/sec from each drive ? You are incorrect"

In fact, I've never said I can get 100mb/s of each drive, I just said I was expecting this... When I've received my material (2x1To Hitachi 7K1000 disks in a EnhanceBox 4 x 3.5" SATA II HDs E4 PM system connected to a Macbook Pro 2.4 via sonnet esata PM card), I've directly created a Raid0 with disk utility and made a Aja system test bench : write 100MB/s, read : 105MB/s. I was disappointed. So, I've erased raid0 and formatted the two disk separatly, then bench only a disk : read 80MB/s, Write : 85MB/s.

So I just try to understand why the gain is so little. Have you an answer please ?

- You said : "I don't give a crap what this reviewer writes" about better preformances than the ones you usually note. What do you think about this test (made with Kona system test in a MacPro and only 4 disks) : http://www.barefeats.com/harper13.html

Thanks Bob for your replies, I like much to debate with you.



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Mark Beazley
Re: esata speeds with MacBookPro
on Sep 5, 2008 at 8:08:24 pm

I just benched my G Speed ES (2TB RAID 5 = 1.5TB). Read and Write is about 150MB/sec to 160MB/sec. Used the system test that came with the IoHD. Looks like I'll be ok for ProRes HQ.

-mark



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Bob Zelin
Re: esata speeds with MacBookPro
on Sep 6, 2008 at 12:21:06 am

you write -
- when I talk about 220MB/s limitation, I make reference to this part of your post : "In a port multiplier chassis, FIVE eSATA drives can do a MAXIMUM speed of 220mb/sec".
Is it a limitation of the PM chip inside the enclosure? Or the same PM enclosure with the same 5 drives stripped would have better performance connected to a MacPro ?

REPLY - I don't know why. Products come out (from Cal Digit, Sonnet, Dulce, etc.), and I test them. Until the Cal Digit Fasta series of port multiplier cards came out, no 5 bay port multipler chassis could even do 220mb/sec - Cal Digit was first. Why can't it go faster - call Silicon Image, and ask them - they make the port multipier chip set that everyone uses. I don't design chips, and I don't understand how they work, or their limitations.



you write -
In fact, I've never said I can get 100mb/s of each drive, I just said I was expecting this... When I've received my material (2x1To Hitachi 7K1000 disks in a EnhanceBox 4 x 3.5" SATA II HDs E4 PM system connected to a Macbook Pro 2.4 via sonnet esata PM card), I've directly created a Raid0 with disk utility and made a Aja system test bench : write 100MB/s, read : 105MB/s. I was disappointed. So, I've erased raid0 and formatted the two disk separatly, then bench only a disk : read 80MB/s, Write : 85MB/s.

So I just try to understand why the gain is so little. Have you an answer please ?

REPLY -you want to know why one drive can work at 70-80 mb/sec, but two drives stripped RAID 0 only work a little faster 105-120mb/sec ? I don't know why. This is the way THEY ALL WORK. I don't design these products, and I just live with the limitations.
You won't get answers from Cal Digit, Sonnet, Enhance, Dulce, Highpoint, or any of these companies - you must get the answers from the Integrated Circuit (chip) companies that make the disk drive controller chips. They are the ones that design these products, and I have no access to these people. Companies like Sonnet just buy the parts, and put it together for you.



- You said : "I don't give a crap what this reviewer writes" about better preformances than the ones you usually note. What do you think about this test (made with Kona system test in a MacPro and only 4 disks) : http://www.barefeats.com/harper13.html

REPLY - I have not studied this article, but Robert at Barefeats appears to be doing these tests INSIDE THE MAC PRO, with FOUR DRIVES - this is done by NOT using the boot drive (booting off an external drive), and stripping all 4 internal drives (the 3 extra drives, and the slot for the boot drive) all RAID 0. I also did not follow weather he was using 15k SATA drives, or SAS drives for these tests for max performance of over 300mb/sec.

WE (you and I and other professionals) do not do this. We buy external drive devices from companies like G-Tech, Sonnet, Cal Digit, Dulce, Firmtek, Maxx Digital, Enhance, etc. In real life, no one is "giving up" their internal boot drive.

What is the point of this discussion. You can do DVCProHD and ProRes422HQ all day long with a 5 bay SATA chassis. If you want uncompressed HD, you get a MODERN SAS/SATA drive array that can go
over 500mb/sec (and then you can do not only uncomrpessed HD but 2K as well).

It seems that your interest in debating is for only one reason - you want a HARD FIRM ANSWER why you can't do uncompressed HD without spending more money. The answer - do ProRes422HQ, and stop complaining.

Bob Zelin





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Philippe Domengie
Re: esata speeds with MacBookPro
on Sep 6, 2008 at 7:47:09 am

Hi Bob,

You write : "It seems that your interest in debating is for only one reason - you want a HARD FIRM ANSWER why you can't do uncompressed HD without spending more money. The answer - do ProRes422HQ, and stop complaining. "

Reply : that's your opinion, you're wrong and a little arrogant because you just don't know me.
I'm working only with ProRes. I've bought all my gear for that and it works pretty well. I don't care of uncompressed......!!
I'm not professional editor or dop or whatever, I essentially do create original videos for live show as contemporary dance, street theatre and so. And artistic budgets are often small..
But there's two things that it seems you don't like much : people who don't have enough money to buy all that wonderful gear you are testing all day, and same curious people trying to have the best from this gear.


For all other question about hardware, I understand you don't know, it doesn't mean it's not interesting for the rest of us.

Regards,

Philippe Domengie.





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Bob Zelin
Re: esata speeds with MacBookPro
on Sep 6, 2008 at 3:18:14 pm

you write -
But there's two things that it seems you don't like much : people who don't have enough money to buy all that wonderful gear you are testing all day, and same curious people trying to have the best from this gear.

REPLY -
I don't have much money, and my clients don't have much money. I look at the professional video magazines with great jealousy, and see all the big professional installations, that cost millions of dollars. These are not the people I know.
I do the best I can with the small budgets that I have to work with. Some people have $6000 for a RAID 5 8TB array, some have only $300 for an internal eSATA drive in their MAC. But I understand the limitations of these, and I don't cry about it - I deal with it. I accept compressed HD (DVCProHD, ProRes422, AVID DNxHD), and promote it, and don't complain that I can't do uncompressed HD, simply because I can't afford it.

I want a Ferrari, but I can't afford one. I am sure that I will never be able to own a Ferrari. So I try to enjoy my car as best as I can.

You can make wonderful artistic videos with ProRes422 with a single FW800 drive and your MacBookPro. The creative content of your videos (and your clients happiness with your work) will not improve, just because you can achieve 250mb/sec on your drive array.

Bob Zelin





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Alan Lacey
Re: esata speeds with MacBookPro
on Sep 6, 2008 at 4:10:25 pm

Bob, but please don't confuse the issue by using wrong units. MB/s v Mb/s v mb/s these are different beasts!

Alan



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: esata speeds with MacBookPro
on Sep 6, 2008 at 10:27:59 pm

At any rate (pardon the pun), 100 or 110 MB/sec is just fine for ProResHQ.


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