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Carson Maddocks
Storage w/AJA IO HD
on Aug 15, 2008 at 8:25:53 am

Hey all,

Scoured the forum but didn't get the exact answer I was looking for, hoping you can help.

Considering the AJA IO HD with my MacBook Pro (15" 2.4GHz/2X2GB (Corsair Class 4 low latency)/200GB) and have been considering my options for external storage...

Obv due to the Firewire Bus issue I want (and have) to use either a different BUS, or, my preferred option is to run an ExpressCard 34 eSata RAID controller... But, after talking to one of my local uni (college for all you in North America) mates I'm looking at NAS... I'm sure somebody may scream murder when I mention it, but what is everybodies thoughts?

The 2 main solutions I have looked at are as follows:
1. ExpressCard 34 eSATA to Caldigit S2VR Duo 2TB (RAID1)
or
2. Thecus N5200BR Pro NAS over Gigabit ethernet.

I am dealing mainly with RED, but as of Sept will also be dealing with the Phantom HD. Hence, the NAS should come in handy due to the 4 port gigabit switch (compatibility with the Phantom?) and the Phantom HD's beautifully hefty file sizes.

What am I missing here? Where are those nasty compatibility issues I'm missing?

Cheers mates,

Carson M
RED Wrangle / Phantom HD Tech
Sydney, Australia


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gary adcock
Re: Storage w/AJA IO HD
on Aug 15, 2008 at 1:55:01 pm

Don't do it.

NAS systems use ethernet packeting protocols and the blocks are not large enough for the data you are planning on sending thru it. I have yet to see any kind of portable NAS systems that could hold up to an eSata array on location. They are fine for SD - but lack sufficient power to handle HD content from RED or Phantom.




gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows
Inside look at the IoHD




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Carson Maddocks
Re: Storage w/AJA IO HD
on Aug 15, 2008 at 11:03:18 pm

Gary,

firstly, you're a legend... secondly, you just saved me so much money and so much time and so much embarrasment... again, you're a legend...

Any thoughts on eSATA external arrays - is it forbidden to do the old "DIY"? Stick to brandname products (G-Tech/Caldigit/etc/etc)?

Just to clarify, are you specifically saying that the IO HD won't work with a NAS? How about using a NAS as a stand alone external storage solution (on a separate machine for data wrangling with RED)? Would it be exactly the same again?

Carson M
RED Wrangler / Phantom HD Tech
Sydney, Australia





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Carsten Orlt
Re: Storage w/AJA IO HD
on Aug 15, 2008 at 11:31:04 pm

As I saw your in Sydney too:

I bought my eSata chassis from eyo: http://www.eyo.com.au/items_CatID_3_SubCatID_136_Storage_External_Enclosure...
the 4 bay and 8 bay CFI chassis work perfectly fine. I have 2 of the 4 bay with my MacBookPro 2.33. Extremely! easy to assemble!

I recommend 1TB drives. I have the Seagate ES model :http://www.eyo.com.au/prod_E-ST31000340NS_proddesc_HDD_SATA_Seagate_Barracuda_1000GB_ES_24x7_3Gb_s_NCQ_32MB_7200.2_ST31000340NS.html
I think its worth the extra bug. But shop around. Sometimes you get good deals.

So 4TB Raid ~ AUD$1600. This is Raid 0 and might not be secure enough for you but I only work in ProRes with the ioHD so I stripe only 2 drives together at a time (and we still do tape base acquisition).

so: use at your own risk :-)

Cheers



Carsten


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Carsten Orlt
Addition: Re: Storage w/AJA IO HD
on Aug 15, 2008 at 11:36:24 pm

Addition:

Of course you can stripe in Raid 1 with the CFI chassis too.

Double the capacity for 1000 less (compared to CalDigit)

Carsten


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Carson Maddocks
Re: Storage w/AJA IO HD
on Aug 16, 2008 at 2:30:30 am

Cheers Carsten...

With an external eSata chassis with 4x1TB set to RAID 1 (so, 2TB protected), is the RAID a SOFTWARE or HARDWARE based raid? I've heard of serious bottlenecking issues with software based raids, after using the Caldigit I know it's a Hardware based raid - this is what I really need.

On the ioHD using a MacBook Pro, would you be able to capture ProRes HQ onto an external eSATA like you suggest?

BTW, CreativeCow Forums rock... Cheers everyone



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Carsten Orlt
Re: Storage w/AJA IO HD
on Aug 16, 2008 at 3:06:12 am

Software Raid, just using OSX disk utility to build the Raid.

Yes I can easily capture ProRes(HQ) with either of my 2 drive Raid's. Both show 100MB/s in the Aja utility for read and write.

I actually only use ProRes wich needs even less MB/s as somebody still has to convince me that (HQ) is better :-) (on paper I'm convinced but from all tests I have done I do not see a difference)

Cheers

Carsten


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Carson Maddocks
Re: Storage w/AJA IO HD
on Aug 16, 2008 at 5:17:07 am

Hmmm, okay... Do you experience any processing issues/drop frames/lag/etc running through the eSATA externals?

Do you mind me asking what your main purpose for the ioHD is? I am considering it for tapeless aquisition as an onset backup, and could also offer a quick Video Split solution. Could I operate FCP log and capture whilst transferring data off RED drives/CF cards... Wait, actually, with the ioHD using FW800 bus, the eSATA in expresscard slot, there isn't a way to attach a CF Card Reader/RED drive, right? All the buses are used if I'm correct? Would have to have 2 machines?

Carson M
Red Wrangler / Phantom HD Tech
Sydney, Australia



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Carsten Orlt
Re: Storage w/AJA IO HD
on Aug 16, 2008 at 6:42:24 am

Carson

Nope, no problem re speed of drives. Not sure what you mean with processing but I do not have any drop frame issues. All footage is 1080i50 (1080psf25) ProRes.
Obviously my MacBook lags a bit in the RT department at that resolution, but this is to be expected.

I do have the ioHD as my video in/out interface. I need to capture all sorts of SD/HD analogue and digital. As I don't have the money for the MacPro right now, I wanted a video hardware that I can keep using no matter what CPU I buy in the future.

And you're correct: Firewire is completely blocked by the ioHD. But you can import CF cards via USB2 readers too which works just fine (use it for my stills)
As for Red drive: If it is firewire only, you have to disconnect the ioHD, transfer data, reconnect ioHD and restart.

If the only thing you need is monitoring your footage (all acquisition tapeless) you might want to check something like the Matrox MXO. I only have bad experiences with Matrox so I don't recommend it, but it might work for you...
That said if you go for the ioHD you'll not be disappointed. Rock solid hardware and as everyone will confirm the Aja support is second to none!!

Cheers


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Carson Maddocks
Re: Storage w/AJA IO HD
on Aug 16, 2008 at 6:54:02 am

Cool...
How much lag are we talking about? Good enough for HD Video Split?
I just found another solution for my CF issue which avoids USB 2.0 (I don't really want to transfer 8gigs across USB 2.0)... An external standalone CF reader with an internal hdd (320gig) and an eSata port, which I could then connect to my second eSata port on my dual ExpressCard34 eSata adapter and start the capture, right? It seems so basic in principal, please don't tell me i've missed something (or do, it would be good to know haha)...
I'm with you, had a few Matrox issues... So would I be able to capture ProRes into FCP and then instantly plaback to an OnSet monitor all using my MBP, FCP and the AJA ioHD? If so, would i just have to close the FCP log and capture window to enable playback of a clip, or do I have to place in timeline?
Would love to get a look at the AJA ioHD, did you manage to take a look at one here in Sydney before purchasing?

Cheers again...
Carson M




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Carsten Orlt
Re: Storage w/AJA IO HD
on Aug 16, 2008 at 7:54:59 am

Carson

Bought my ioHD online from Videoguys.com.au. Cheaper and excellent support!!. Check local resellers if you want a demo.
And I couldn't have a look first as nobody had it at the time. Lots of research...

Can't answer your question re split video because I do not do on set work.

As with all capture video in FCP you can play the clips straight in the viewer. Or you can use the Aja TV software to play clips through the ioHD without having FCP open.

You might want to study the Aja website as they announced new drivers (I think there was a press release) that will support Red footage. Don't know the ins and outs as I do not work with Red footage.

Good luck!

Best


Carsten


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gary adcock
Re: Storage w/AJA IO HD
on Aug 16, 2008 at 1:04:24 pm

[Carson Maddocks] "firstly, you're a legend"

Only in my own mind Carson....

"Just to clarify, are you specifically saying that the IO HD won't work with a NAS? How about using a NAS as a stand alone external storage solution (on a separate machine for data wrangling with RED)"

this has nothing to do with the IoHD.

The Infrastructure of NAS and the protocols used are not fast enough for the highend work you are proposing to do here. You cannot treat a RED / Phantom workflow this lightly, there is just not enough bandwidth over ethernet to handle the data flow needed for 1080 even as prores. Nor would I want to suffer consistently moving 100 GB over an ethernet connection.

Secondly why would you want to carry "network attached storage" on location? thats the part I do not get- The NAS architecture was designed for low bandwidth collaboration not real time onset issues.


Look you asked someone in a closed cozy university environment about tools needed for OnSet production - if you were building a classroom the answer would be very very different.



gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows
Inside look at the IoHD




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Bob Zelin
Re: Storage w/AJA IO HD
on Aug 17, 2008 at 3:39:23 pm

Please remember that the Slot 34 buss speed is MUCH SLOWER than that of a product run in a tower (like Mac Pro). So a simple 5 drive eSATA product (build it yourself, or buy one from one of the companies that you mentioned) will NEVER get the speeds of over 200mb/sec on a MAC Book Pro with a Slot 34 eSATA adaptor. It ain't the drives, it's the MAC Book Pro.

No matter how you try, you just can't do everyting with the MAC Book Pro. You have TONS of gear that you bring out on a Red or Phantom shoot. Adding the correct computer will just make your life easier.
Everybody has a cart - the audio guy is not lugging everything around on his shoulder - he has a CART. You need one to. With your MAC Pro and your drives.

Bob Zelin




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Carson Maddocks
Re: Storage w/AJA IO HD
on Aug 27, 2008 at 7:04:52 am

Thanks for all your help re: this. All useful information and have decided against NAS as a storage solution. Having said that, would I be fine for a ProRes capture (via HD-SDI) onto a 2-bay eSATA external (using the ExpressCard24 slot)? I'm not looking to do intensive editing, mainly 4:2:2 ProRes capture.

So I'm thinking something like this for tapeless based digital aquisition: Camera out -> (HD-SDI) -> AJA ioHD -> (Firewire 800) -> MacBook Pro -> (eSATA) -> External RAID 1 storage.

Bob, I understand re: cart and have looked into it already. But I'm more interested on your comment regarding max speeds of 200MB/s - is this regarding using a NAS? I've seen coflicting info about the necessary speed specs of ProRes - anybody able to confirm anything? How long could I record onto a 2TB RAID 1 ext hdd?

Cheers,
Carson M
Sydney, Australia


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Bob Zelin
Re: Storage w/AJA IO HD
on Aug 28, 2008 at 3:12:39 am

Carson -
this is what you are going to do. You are going to go to http://www.aja.com right now, and download the AJA Data Rate Calculator. It's easy, it runs on any PC or MAC. And it will tell you exactly how much speed, and how much storage you need for ANY resolution, and how much space is taken up for one hour of storage.

ProRes422 is very efficient, and requires very little. So your MAC Book Pro going into a Cal Digit slot 34 adaptor into an eSATA array will absolutely work for this with ProRes422.

Your next post should either say "I could not find the AJA , or "this AJA calculator is fantastic !".

http://www.aja.com/html/support_kona3_swd.html - scroll down the page to find it. It's free !

Bob Zelin




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Carson Maddocks
Re: Storage w/AJA IO HD
on Aug 30, 2008 at 12:46:03 am

BOB: "this AJA calculator is fantastic !" haha... thanks mate. I couldn't find the prores preset in there? is it just 1080i 8 and 10 bit presets?

looking forward to building an eSATA raid array out of my expresscard 34 slot...



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Bob Zelin
Re: Storage w/AJA IO HD
on Aug 30, 2008 at 1:38:25 pm

this is another great chart, that I love -

http://www.dulcesystems.com/html/video_space.html

And Dulce Systems is a GREAT company.

Bob Zelin




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keith morris
Re: Storage w/AJA IO HD
on Sep 1, 2008 at 4:08:11 am

I'm in the market for a new RAID too for my MacBook Pro. I've got every port filled right now, it's totally Frankensteined together. Everything is 1TB drives--2 esatas, 1 firewire 800, 1 fw 400, both usb's. I've been editing my feature piecemeal, section by section, but now I need to move things around in the edit and just want it all on one type of drive. (I've got everything double backed up and have 18TB.) any suggestions on RAIDs that would work with a laptop welcome. i need space for about 6 to 8TB of footage to have all the raw footage accessible. anyone?

thanks!
keith
http://gutterking.tv



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Bob Zelin
Re: Storage w/AJA IO HD
on Sep 1, 2008 at 2:08:38 pm

If I were you, I would stop thinking about a RAID 5 array, and start thinking about buying a professional MAC, like a MAC Pro tower. THEN you can get any RAID 5 array you like.
If you have 18TB of storage, I assume you are not an amateur, or this is not a hobby for you.

Bob Zelin



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keith morris
Re: Storage w/AJA IO HD
on Sep 1, 2008 at 7:44:03 pm

cant afford a new tower right now... so what should i get to have 8 TB running smoothly on a laptop?



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keith morris
Re: Storage w/AJA IO HD
on Sep 1, 2008 at 7:47:26 pm

Actually, I might be able to buy a tower if "ALL IN" to make it work with my current drives its under $5000. Possible? Please send me all the specs for what I'll need to edit this RED footage easily for that price and I'll put your name in the credits. :)



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Bob Zelin
Re: Storage w/AJA IO HD
on Sep 1, 2008 at 10:49:37 pm

My friend Keith -
Getting a RAID array to work with a MAC Pro tower is easy.
Getting Red Footage to work is not easy. If you think that you are doing a super low budget RED job, with no knowlege about RED workflow, you are in for the surprise of your career. There ain't no free lunch.

And my name is in enough "credits" already :)

Bob Zelin




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keith morris
Re: Storage w/AJA IO HD
on Sep 1, 2008 at 11:28:39 pm

I have a rough cut edited in my hodge-podge setup already. Not ideal, but totally workable. I talked to Apple and they recommended to be able to access all footage at once and have it all on one timeline, add the Cal Digit HD1 8TB. That's $7900. Ever use it? If I get the MacPro, I wont have enough to get the Cal Digit. Arrrgggghh!

With this in mind, what should I do?



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