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Serious Audio related issue with AJA IoHD

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Ravi Sockalingam
Serious Audio related issue with AJA IoHD
on Mar 24, 2008 at 11:01:47 am

Hi

I am having a tough time figuring out the audio related issue with IoHD... Does any one in this forum had such an issue???


Problem 1: The clips imported into FCP and played either from the bin or timeline starts
repeating the first word in loop (just like an echo) for 10 secs and then the second word
starts repeating ... Sometimes everything plays smooth.. this happens even when we pause
and start the clip also...so to cross check whether it is the problem in FCP we played
the clips through QT player but the same problem persists...

Problem 2: If the FCP timeline is 30 mts are more then the audio sync starts to off sync
after 20 mts...

Problem 3: When video is captured through SDI input of the IoHD there is cracking noise
in the captured clip...

With regard to problem 1, when the audio starts repeating then if we go to A/v settings
in FCP and select the Audio device as IoHD Firewire (which is already selected) once
again then the problem goes off for some time then it happens again..

I will appreciate your valuable help...
us...

Regards
Ravi.s.
Cinthamani Computer -Chennai
+91 9841066595


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gary adcock
Re: Serious Audio related issue with AJA IoHD
on Mar 24, 2008 at 2:40:55 pm

[Ravi Sockalingam] "I am having a tough time figuring out the audio related issue with IoHD... Does any one in this forum had such an issue???"

Without specific setup of your system it is very hard to assist.

OS version, FCP, QT, IoHD software and firmware versions are needed.



gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows
Inside look at the IoHD




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Ravi Sockalingam
Re: Serious Audio related issue with AJA IoHD
on Mar 24, 2008 at 11:23:32 pm

Find below the system info:

OS: Mac OS X Version 10.5.2
Processor 2x 3.2 Ghz Quad-core Intel Xeon
Memory 16 Gb 800 Mhz DDR2 FB-DIMM

Hardware:
Hardware Overview:
Model Name: Mac Pro
Model Identifier: MacPro3,1
Processor Name: Quad-Core Intel Xeon
Processor Speed: 3.2 GHz
Number Of Processors: 2
Total Number Of Cores: 8
L2 Cache (per processor): 12 MB
Memory: 16 GB
Bus Speed: 1.6 GHz
Boot ROM Version: MP31.006C.B02
SMC Version: 1.25f4
Serial Number: YM8080Q7XYL


iOHD Driver software Version 5.1.1

Hardware ID: IoHD (0x10224000) S/N IH002408
VideoProc Bit file: 2007/12/04 13:00:16 (DownConvert)
/Library/QuickTime:
5.1.1 - AJACodec.component
5.1.1 - AJADigitizer.component
5.1.1 - AJAMuxer.component
5.1.1 - AJAUncompressedCodec.component
5.1.1 - AJAVideoOutput.component
5.1.1 - AJAVideoOutputClock.component
5.1.1 - AJAVideoOutputCodec.component
1.5 - FCP Uncompressed 422.component
1.4 - DVCPROHDCodec.component
1.2 - AppleIntermediateCodec.component
1.3.2 - AppleHDVCodec.component
1.0.2 - AppleProRes422.component
/Applications:
5.1.1 - AJA ControlPanel.app
/Applications/AJA Utilities:
5.1.1 - AJA Conflict Checker.app
5.1.1 - AJA Data Rate Calculator.app
5.1.1 - AJA DPXToQTTranslator.app
5.1.1 - AJA IoHDUpdater.app
5.1.1 - AJA QTToDPXTranslator.app
5.1.1 - AJA System Test.app
5.1.1 - AJA TV.app
5.1.1 - AJA Uninstaller.app
/System/Library/Extensions:
5.1.1 - AJAIoHD.kext
/Library/LaunchAgents:
11/21/2007 04:40 - com.aja.ajaagent.plist
/Library/Application Support/AJA/AJAAgent:
02/14/2008 08:03 - AJAAgent
/Library/Application Support/Final Cut Pro System Support/Plugins:
02/14/2008 08:12 - AJA Kona RT Enabler

Aja iOHD Frmware Details:

moab.bin 12/06/2007
moab_dc_top.bit 12/04/2007
moab_uc_top.bit 12/04/2007
moab_cdc_top.bit 12/04/2007
moab_cuc_top.bit 12/04/2007
fiwac_top.bit 02/11/2008



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gary adcock
Re: Serious Audio related issue with AJA IoHD
on Mar 25, 2008 at 2:08:08 am

[Ravi Sockalingam] "Find below the system info: "

Ravi
you get all the credit for the most complete software/ hardware list EVER on the Cow


please check to make sure you do not have the IoHD set to be your audio out device for the MAC system, that seems to be the most common cause for the echo.

Secondly
run the AJA uninstaller in the AJA utilities folder inside applications, Then Reinstall and re patch the firmware on your IoHD
One of the firmware files does not correctly match the version of the files in your Firmware.


RAVI - once again thank you for providing the kind of Data we need to suggest a solution without ever seeing your computer.


gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows
Inside look at the IoHD




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Woody Bass
Re: Serious Audio related issue with AJA IoHD
on Mar 25, 2008 at 2:40:24 pm

Thanks for clarifying the issue Gary....I did have the audio out set to use the IoHD in the System Prefs, but switching it back to the internal speakers allows audio from FCP to play fine.

But I'm curious as to how you would configure the system so that clips which typically open in QuickTime Player can play audio through the same speakers. This particular client receives many QT files and want to be able to preview them via these speakers that are routed from the IoHD without having to open them in FCP each time.

I suppose if the speakers have dual inputs, we could route the system-based audio to the 2nd set of inputs, but this doesn't seem a standard way of configuring an edit suite.

This just seems like a bug in either the IoHD drivers and/or the Mac OS/Quicktime/Firewire and I would think you should be able to send ALL audio through the IoHD without any hiccups?? Am I missing something here??

Woody Bass
wbass@tenplus.com



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gary adcock
Re: Serious Audio related issue with AJA IoHD
on Mar 25, 2008 at 4:44:06 pm

[Woody Bass] "I suppose if the speakers have dual inputs, we could route the system-based audio to the 2nd set of inputs, but this doesn't seem a standard way of configuring an edit suite."


no the standard way would be to route all of the audio thru a mixer - both from the computer and the IO.

The issue has to do with the latency of FW and the OS not the hardware, remember that the Kona Cards do not have this issue since they are treated a part of the machine, not an add on.




gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows
Inside look at the IoHD




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Ravi Sockalingam
Re: Serious Audio related issue with AJA IoHD
on Mar 25, 2008 at 6:29:56 pm

Hi Gary

As per your help I was able to solve the echo issue but there the audio latency issue is still there.. The audio follows video delayed when scrubbing through the timeline of preview window.. Is there any other way which could solve this latency issue???



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Bob Zelin
Re: Serious Audio related issue with AJA IoHD
on Mar 25, 2008 at 8:08:00 pm

Ravi writes -

but there the audio latency issue is still there.. The audio follows video delayed when scrubbing through the timeline of preview window.. Is there any other way which could solve this latency issue???


REPLY -
it makes me upset that knowlegeable people on this forum do not respond with the correct answer, as if they have never heard of this problem, and ask (for example) what kind of files are you working with -

do this - in the FCP System Settings, click on Playback Control tab, and UNCHECK SCRUB HIGH QUALITY.

Please let me know if this works.


One of the MAIN REASONS public forums exist is to eliminate the "gee - I never heard of this problem before" comments.
Audio delay from the video after scrubbing is a WELL KNOWN PROBLEM with the AJA I/O HD, and I never want to see any expert on this forum say "gee, I never heard of this" ever again.

Bob Zelin




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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Serious Audio related issue with AJA IoHD
on Mar 25, 2008 at 8:52:38 pm

Bob-

If it were that simple, it'd be that simple. I urge you to reread Woody's post which is separate from Ravi's which requires a different answer.

Cheers.

Jeremy


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Ravi Sockalingam
Re: Serious Audio related issue with AJA IoHD
on Mar 26, 2008 at 7:32:58 am

Hi

UNCHECK SCRUB HIGH QUALITY - does not have any effect..the issue remains unsolved... Aja support also suggested this setting but it does not work..



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gary adcock
Re: Serious Audio related issue with AJA IoHD
on Mar 26, 2008 at 1:56:32 pm

[Ravi Sockalingam] "The audio follows video delayed when scrubbing through the timeline of preview window.. Is there any other way which could solve this latency issue???
"


Ok thats a Different Issue
Turn off high quality scrubbing and set your audio quality to Low inside of FCP.

there is no need to monitor audio at a quality setting higher than you bring it into FCP at, the Low setting allows the system to monitor the audio with out converting or resampling.

gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows
Inside look at the IoHD




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Ravi Sockalingam
Re: Serious Audio related issue with AJA IoHD
on Mar 26, 2008 at 7:10:08 pm

yes this i have done after it was suggested by Aja support team... However even after this the problem persists...



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David Bispham
Re: Serious Audio related issue with AJA IoHD
on Apr 3, 2008 at 5:20:27 pm

We have the same issue of audio delay / latency / lip slip on two systems.
AJA Io HD 5.1.1
FCP 6.0.2
MAC OS X 10.4.11 2x3 Quad core Intel Xenon
16 GB 667 MHz DDR2 FB-DIMM
Sonnet 8TB
AJA Gen 10 Sync generator

The echo problem has been resolved by System Line out switched to Built in Line out instead of the AJA out which makes sense.

We have made the changes within FCP....
Setting audio quality to LOW which is 48KHz.
Setting video quality to HIGH.
Setting frame rate to FULL
Unchecking high quality scrub.

I did have luck hooking up the audio out of the Mac to a second input on the speakers so I can get system sound when playing DVDs or video clips on the desktop. This works nicely.
This may be obvious to most, but when I play a DVD using this setup the audio is dead on, but when system audio is pumped thru the AJA the sync is way off.

So, this is a known issue I am told, the rapid scrubbing and audio sync, but we get it with basic timeline navigation, which makes it a little difficult to edit and find audio que points. Can / will the issue be resolved? Is there a time frame? Should we get Kona cards? Could we be doing something wrong?
David


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gary adcock
the problem is really operator error
on Apr 3, 2008 at 8:51:24 pm


I do not understand what your issue is?

Audio and video ALWAYS need to play together and you are breaking that rule by sending the audio out a different signal path than the video is playing thru- thats why they are not in sync.

You are not supposed to play the system audio out directly via your output device. You should not do this with a Card either. Every studio diagram I have ever seen or done tells you to route all audio thru an external mixer, why is that not acceptable?

By using the Iohd for the system sounds you are allowing the CPU to handle the video while the audio has to be passed out over FW ( with +/- 6 frames of latency)- so the DVD you are watching could be as much as 12 frames out on playback before any compression / decompression handling.

Not to mention the normal delays in Mpeg processing and playback.


this is not a serious audio issue - IMHO It's operator error





gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows
Inside look at the IoHD




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David Bispham
Re: the problem is really operator error
on Apr 3, 2008 at 9:33:16 pm

The issue is audio and video are out of sync while playback in FCPro, similar to Ravi's issue.

The audio and video reside on the Sonnet drives. Playback of these files is thru the AJA ioHD. Rapid scrubbing enhances the problem and sometimes the sync problem just arises thru timeline navigation. If I stop playback, wait 2-3 seconds, resume playbck....viola sync has magically appeared.

The only reason I have system sounds (DVD, Adobe Encore playback etc.) routed thru the System line out(not handled by the AJA) is so I don't get the echo while playing FCPro Audio. I have connected (from the MAC audio output) to the second input on the speakers so I can hear it. That way I don't have to keep going into my System preferences to change it.

You are correct, it would be best to go thru a mixer, but that would not solve the sync issues handled by the AJA.




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gary adcock
Re: the problem is really operator error
on Apr 4, 2008 at 3:53:43 am

[David Bispham] "The issue is audio and video are out of sync while playback in FCPro, similar to Ravi's issue"

Since you are jumping into someone else's issue-- would you mind offer up some info
( on the lines of RAVI's info would be nice) on your setup/ software / etc.

the issue is not magic- 99.9999% of the time the issue is something you overlooked, or it is an issue with your hardware not being able to keep up.

the "sync" issue is really an FCP issue - the kona's and Iohd only capture and playback the audio as it is within FCP - when playback is controlled by FCP - not the hardware ( like when using AJA TV) - the AJA devices force FCP to handle the video and audio correctly, and if it is not correctly setup or handling something happens.

My first test for any issue is to turn off all RT and see what needs rendering.


gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows
Inside look at the IoHD




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David Bispham
Re: the problem is really operator error
on Apr 4, 2008 at 2:58:07 pm

Here you go Gary,
and thanks to Ravi for the example.....

OS: Mac OS X Version 10.4.11
Processor 2x 3.2 Ghz Quad-core Intel Xeon
Memory 16 Gb 667 Mhz DDR2 FB-DIMM

Hardware:
Hardware Overview:
Model Name: Mac Pro
Model Identifier: MacPro2,1
Processor Name: Quad-Core Intel Xeon
Processor Speed: 3 GHz
Number Of Processors: 2
Total Number Of Cores: 8
L2 Cache (per processor): 8 MB
Memory: 16 GB
Bus Speed: 1.33 GHz
Boot ROM Version: MP21.007F.B08
SMC Version: 1.15f3
Serial Number: 407420BL08S


iOHD Driver software Version 5.1.1

Hardware ID: IoHD (0x10224000) S/N IH002596
VideoProc Bit file: 2007/12/04 13:00:16 (DownConvert)
/Library/QuickTime:
5.1.1 - AJACodec.component
5.1.1 - AJADigitizer.component
5.1.1 - AJAMuxer.component
5.1.1 - AJAUncompressedCodec.component
5.1.1 - AJAVideoOutput.component
5.1.1 - AJAVideoOutputClock.component
5.1.1 - AJAVideoOutputCodec.component
1.5 - FCP Uncompressed 422.component
1.4 - DVCPROHDCodec.component
1.2 - AppleIntermediateCodec.component
1.3.2 - AppleHDVCodec.component
1.0.2 - AppleProRes422.component
/Applications:
5.1.1 - AJA ControlPanel.app
/Applications/AJA Utilities:
5.1.1 - AJA Conflict Checker.app
5.1.1 - AJA Data Rate Calculator.app
5.1.1 - AJA DPXToQTTranslator.app
5.1.1 - AJA IoHDUpdater.app
5.1.1 - AJA QTToDPXTranslator.app
5.1.1 - AJA System Test.app
5.1.1 - AJA TV.app
5.1.1 - AJA Uninstaller.app
/System/Library/Extensions:
5.1.1 - AJAIoHD.kext
/Library/LaunchAgents:
11/20/2007 16:10 - com.aja.ajaagent.plist
/Library/Application Support/AJA/AJAAgent:
02/13/2008 19:33 - AJAAgent
/Library/Application Support/Final Cut Pro System Support/Plugins:
02/13/2008 19:42 - AJA Kona RT Enabler

As far as Aja iOHD Frmware Details, I cannot find those details, basically I don't know where to look. I am new this year to Macs.

Also in the AJA control panel setup was the line.....
Possible conflicting QuickTime components: No conflicting files found.

The firewire hook up is FW800 and have tried FW400 and it made no difference.
The cable is maximum 6 feet long.

The video format is CCIR 601 NTSC (40:27) and (video and audio) was ingested via SDI.
The FCP project is Apple ProRes HQ 422

I might add that the systems were set up by professional installers who were the resellers of the products.

Thanks for your input and timely responses to this issue.
David




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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Serious Audio related issue with AJA IoHD
on Mar 25, 2008 at 5:51:00 pm

[Woody Bass] "This particular client receives many QT files and want to be able to preview them via these speakers that are routed from the IoHD without having to open them in FCP each time. "

What kind of quicktime files are they? Are they any kind of standard video codec or are they web movies?

Jeremy




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Carsten Orlt
Re: Serious Audio related issue with AJA IoHD
on Mar 25, 2008 at 10:10:28 pm

have you tried to use AJA TV (little app you get with the driver installation) to play your QT clips? By using AJA TV you'll force the audio of your clips through the ioHD, and this way you don't need a mixer or dual inputs on your speakers.

The problem with audio latency or in this case better called delay is that the video has to go through through the ioHD and gets delayed due to processing. If the audio doesn't go via the ioHD and gets synchronized within the ioHD the audio arrives basically not synchronized with the picture.

Because of firewire the delay is noticeable. So give Aja TV a try. (little tip: if your client wants to double click his files to always open them in AJA TV rather then QTplayer, you can set file(s)/type of files to always open with a certain app = contextual menu>hold option and the open with command changes to 'always open with'

Carsten


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Serious Audio related issue with AJA IoHD
on Mar 25, 2008 at 11:52:34 pm

See, that's where I was going about the file types, but this won't work without standard video codecs.


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Woody Bass
Re: Serious Audio related issue with AJA IoHD
on Mar 26, 2008 at 1:49:19 am

I had forgotten about the AJA TV app, but that just might do the trick. All of the codecs in use are standard, so I don't think using this app will be problematic....I'll give it a spin tomorrow.

Thanks for all the feedback guys....we're still relatively new to the game, so some things that are obvious to most of you isn't that obvious to me :-). Any other feedback re: best practices with the IoHD are more than welcome....

Woody



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Woody Bass
Re: Serious Audio related issue with AJA IoHD
on Mar 28, 2008 at 7:24:22 pm

Gary, et al.,

Not trying to beat a dead horse here, but can someone clarify why this weird audio "echo, loop" issue only happens when the System audio out is set to use the IoHD?

Maybe I'm just missing something obvious here, but since the audio that's coming from FCP to the IoHD is also traveling over the Firewire bus, how is it that it can "bypass" this issue? Does FCP interact with the AJA software in a different way than does the Core Audio layer of the OS/Quicktime?

I understand the workaround, i.e. using FCP or the AJA TV to play QT files, but it just seems to be that if you can play audio from within FCP through the IoHD w/o any "echo", then the same should hold true for any audio traveling over the Firewire bus.

Again, I apologize if I'm asking something that's obvious to the rest of your more seasoned gurus out there :-).

Woody



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David Perry
Re: Serious Audio related issue with AJA IoHD
on Apr 1, 2008 at 8:16:19 pm

I haven't read the whole thread recently but the "bypass" is going out of the line output of the MAC directly to the audio device you are listening to it on. You are not going out of the FW to the IO HD and then to your speakers.

Change your System Settings in FCP to Audio - Line Output instead of the AJA output for audio.
Then change your MAC System Prefs and choose the Sound icon and change the output to Line Output. Then connect a mini stereo cable to your MAC line output and run it to your speakers.

Certainly not an ideal situation but I think AJA has a handle on the problem and will fix it by NAB. (I might be wrong).

I hope this is right and helps.

David Perry
Carmen Productions


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Woody Bass
Re: Serious Audio related issue with AJA IoHD
on Mar 24, 2008 at 9:52:07 pm

I apologize if this post shows up twice...I thought I had already posted a reply, but just came back to check the forum and it didn't show up.

Anyway, we have also encountered this weird audio "echo, looping" with (2) IoHD units, the most recent test being this AM. We have noticed the issue in both FCP and QT Player, and it occurs with a variety of encoded clips. FWIW, the issue only occurs when audio is routed through the IoHD; if audio is played back through either the internal speakers or if we use a Y-splitter to send audio from the audio out to speakers, we do not notice the issue. We have no other Firewire devices attached to the MacBook Pros.

Along those lines, are config is as follows:

MacBook Pros
Mac OS 10.4.11
FCP 6.0.2
AJA IoHD 5.1.1 driver

We have reported the issue to AJA, but have yet to find a resolution....any ideas?

Woody Bass
wbass@tenplus.com



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Mazaltarim Marcel
Quienscence
on Apr 2, 2008 at 9:51:32 pm

Hi Ravi
I am trying to find the sofware can you help me
Regards
Marcel M



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Lawrence Shea
Re: Serious Audio related issue with AJA IoHD
on Jun 27, 2008 at 2:12:57 pm

I am experiencing the same problem. Not to mention the audio sync problems that I'm having when capturing SD through the ioHD. When I re-attach my old io, using all of the same connections/settings, everything works perfectly. What worries me is that this audio sync problem may not be recognized by aja as a technical issue and is instead being dismissed as operator error...

Mac Pro
Quad-Core Intel Xeon
Processor - 3 GHz
Memory - 10 GHz



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Serious Audio related issue with AJA IoHD
on Jun 27, 2008 at 3:36:02 pm

[Lawrence Shea] "When I re-attach my old io, using all of the same connections/settings, everything works perfectly."

And this is with driver uninstalls and reinstalls between the two different io's?




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Lawrence Shea
Re: Serious Audio related issue with AJA IoHD
on Jun 27, 2008 at 6:13:35 pm

Yes. This is with driver uninstalls, reinstalls, etc...



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Charles Wantman
Re: Serious Audio related issue with AJA IoHD
on Dec 22, 2008 at 8:58:07 pm

I've been having audio sync problems with the IOHD since I got it -- about seven or eight months ago. We've had 3 AJA boxes in, spent hours and hours with AJA tech support, and no satisfaction.

I can actually see the audio lagging on the AJA led meters on the front of the box. Both audio and video are going through the box, but audio arrives later, sometimes a full second or two.

I am about to wipe my drive, upgrade the os, and reinstall all the software.

I see that there hasn't been a response in this thread for about six months. Has the issue been resolved and I just haven't found out.

Appreciate any help available.



Charles Wantman
Audio Vistas, Inc.
333 West 52nd Street #1208
New York, NY 10019


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