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Connecting Gen10 sync generator to HD CAM Deck...help needed

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Bill Paterno
Connecting Gen10 sync generator to HD CAM Deck...help needed
on Dec 15, 2007 at 9:21:20 pm

Hello

I just upgraded to HD and I rented a Sony HDW500 for the weekend to dig some 1080 23.976psf footage (16mm film transfered to HDCAM). I bought the AJA Gen10 to use as my HD sync generator. I think I am not getting the right configuration between deck and sync generator because Im not getting a video signal. Here is what the back of the deck looks like



Here is what the AJA looks like and the diagram below




HD is completely new to me and the whole sync issue is completely confusing. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!


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Bob Zelin
Re: Connecting Gen10 sync generator to HD CAM Deck...help needed
on Dec 15, 2007 at 9:54:32 pm

No matter what you are told here, the HDW500 has MENUS that need to be set for the frequency that it operates at - either 23.98, or 59.94. You have not said if your project needs to stay at 23.98 or 59.94. If you are doing a TV show, or a film that DOES NOT have to go back to film, you should let the VTR do a 2:3 pulldown (if the VTR has the option card for this). If you are going back to film, you will want to work at 23.98. Only your client can answer these questions.

I will tell you how to hook this up, but without a Sony HDW500 manual, I cannot tell you how to set the menus. There are A MILLION menus in this VTR (and all Sony VTR's), and it is your responsibility to figure out these menus, or to CALL THE RENTAL HOUSE, and say "how do I set the reference to 23.98 or 59.94).

This is how to hook it up. (my instructions will mean nothing if the Sony menus are not setup correctly).
Sony HD-SDI Out 1 to AJA I/O HD IN 1 (or Kona 3 IN 1, or Kona LHe SDI IN). If you are working at 59.94, and letting the VTR do the pulldown for you, you can work with NTSC black, or 59.94 tri level sync. For NTSC black (525), GEN 10 output 1 to HDW-500 REF IN 525. GEN10 Output 2 to AJA I/O HD Reference IN (or Kona 3 Refeernce IN, or Kona LHe Reference IN). If you have a K3 or KL box, you MUST terminate the input with a BNC 75 ohm terminator. If you don't have one, get one.
On the HDW-500, 75 ohm ON. On GEN10 dip switch # 1 to LEFT position (SD).

To work with tri level sync at 59.94, GEN10 Output 1 to HDW-500 Ref IN 1125/59.94 termination switch ON. GEN10 output 2 to AJA I/o HD Reference Input. GEN10 DIP switch # 1 to RIGHT, which is for HD (tri level sync) output.

Go into the Kona Control Panel (or I/O Control Panel), and select format, and choose 1080i 29.97 or 1080i 59.94 (I am not in front of a system right now). Select SDI input 1 in the input tab. Montior the output of the AJA product. (you did not say what your TV monitor is- I will assume it is an HD monitor). Take I/O HD HD Out 1 into TV HD-SDI IN. Click on control tab in I/o Control panel, and select INPUT PASSTHRU. Play your tape, and you will see your picture.

I CANNOT STREESS ENOUGHT TO YOU that your VTR must be set correctly. If you have 23.98 footage, and your VTR menus are not set, you will get scrambled images.

If you are working with 23.98, and not 59.94, you will need to change the GEN10 siwtches 678. If they are all to the left
it puts out tri level sync at 59.94. To get 23.98 for your application at 1080i, you need to change 678 to 001 instead of 000 (I am not in front of a unit, but I think you switch #8 to the right). This will put out 23.98. Now, go into your AJA control panel, click on the FORMAT TAB, and change the format to 1080i 23.98.

Once again, if you don't change the VTR menu (like you just changed the AJA control menu), IT AINT GONNA WORK.

Without a Sony manual, you, I or anyone else, just can't guess at which menu it is. You need this information.

Bob Zelin


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Bill Paterno
Re: Connecting Gen10 sync generator to HD CAM Deck...help needed
on Dec 15, 2007 at 11:18:33 pm

Bob,

Thanks for the reply and the patience. Like I said, this is all new to me and I am trying to figure it out on my own. I do appreciate the help.

We just upgraded our Avid Media Composer to HD so we are not using Aja hardware for the Avid. We are using the Adrenaline IO.

The footage is all 16mm transfered to HDCAM 1080i 23.98 PsF. The final product is for TV. We will not be going back to film.

So if I am working with 23.98 but want to do the pull down (I believe it has the optional card) then should I be using 23.98 tri level sync or 59.94? My guess is 23.98

Unfortunately I am not in front of the gear right now but plan to get back to work tomorrow to try this out. I have the manual for the deck so I can figure out how to change the individual settings.

If you have any additional info, it would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Bill


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Bob Zelin
Re: Connecting Gen10 sync generator to HD CAM Deck...help needed
on Dec 16, 2007 at 3:52:02 pm

We just upgraded our Avid Media Composer to HD so we are not using Aja hardware for the Avid. We are using the Adrenaline IO.

REPLY - you can do this entire job with normal black reference IF you work at 59.94. Since you own the GEN10, you can set the GEN10 to "HD" which will change the outputs to tri level sync. Leaving the last 3 switches all to the left will keep everyting at 59.94. DO NOT WORK AT 23.98. Use the pulldown feature on the VTR.

The footage is all 16mm transfered to HDCAM 1080i 23.98 PsF. The final product is for TV. We will not be going back to film.

REPLY - REPEAT do not work at 23.98. Work at 1080i 59.94. You can use your tri level sync at 59.94. Go to Tools/Video Output tool, and make sure that external ref is selected in the Media Composer program.


So if I am working with 23.98 but want to do the pull down (I believe it has the optional card) then should I be using 23.98 tri level sync or 59.94? My guess is 23.98

REPLY - your guess is wrong. Use 59.94.

I can't find the HDW-500 manual on line, otherwise I would tell you where the menu's in the VTR were.


Bob Zelin


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Connecting Gen10 sync generator to HD CAM Deck...help needed
on Dec 16, 2007 at 11:01:33 pm

[Bob Zelin] "REPEAT do not work at 23.98. Work at 1080i 59.94. You can use your tri level sync at 59.94. Go to Tools/Video Output tool, and make sure that external ref is selected in the Media Composer program. "

Why would you tell him this?

Bill, what format are you delivering on? Don't work @ 59.94. Repeat don't work @ 59.94

Confused yet?

Jeremy


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Bill Paterno
Re: Connecting Gen10 sync generator to HD CAM Deck...help needed
on Dec 17, 2007 at 1:06:13 am

Jeremy

Thats a good question. I dont even know based on the client. They just want HD. The DP chose the format that the film was transfered to. I can tell you that its not going back to film. This is strictly for broadcast.

Bob,

I understand your explanation now and will try it out tomorrow. However, if the HDCAM deck does not have the optional board to do the 2:3 pulldown, am I screwed??? Or can I still bring in the footage native 1080 23.98psf and be able to preview the sequence on my HD monitors?

Cheers,
Bill


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Bob Zelin
Re: Connecting Gen10 sync generator to HD CAM Deck...help needed
on Dec 17, 2007 at 4:21:33 pm

Jeremy,
he is not using an AJA product (where after he works at 23.98, he can go and change the PLAYBACK settings in the Audio/Video settings menu to 1080i/29.97. He is on an AVID Adrenaline.

So Jeremy, following your advice, he now has a mastered show on an AVID Adrenaline at 23.98. How does he lay back to the VTR at 59.94 for broadcast, or make dubs to a Digi Beta or Beta VTR at 29.97?.

I anxiously await your reply.

Bob Zelin


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Connecting Gen10 sync generator to HD CAM Deck...help needed
on Dec 17, 2007 at 4:41:42 pm

Well, that's why I asked about the deliverable and what it needs to be mastered on (Bill you should find that out now before you start editing). A 23.98 master is much more versatile than 59.94 master. From 23.98 you can go anywhere. Also, when you capture @ 59.94i you are capturing with pulldown. That means the pulldown cadence will be inconsistent across the whole entire tape when mastering. If you keep the 23.98 frame rate while editing, you can lay off a 59.94 master that has a consistent 3:2 cadence across the entire program. This also means the pulldown can be removed very easily if you even need to recapture the master @ 23.98 and equipment with inherent 3:2 pulldown removal (like some modern home plasma and lcds) will be able to keep up with a consistent cadence. Making an SD dub is as simple as it sounds. If the adrenaline can't do this is real time, simply run it through the SD out of the HD Deck or the many various ways to make an SD master.

I just don't see the point of adding another frame rate to his 23.98 filmed material. It is much easier to go to 59.94 from 23.98 than it is to go the other way. Why add artifacts to it when you don't have to? It will also save you a bit on bandwidth, but no one cares about that stuff but me.

Jeremy


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Bob Zelin
Re: Connecting Gen10 sync generator to HD CAM Deck...help needed
on Dec 17, 2007 at 6:21:30 pm

Jeremy writes -

Making an SD dub is as simple as it sounds. If the adrenaline can't do this is real time, simply run it through the SD out of the HD Deck or the many various ways to make an SD master



REPLY -
If you have an AVID Adrenaline, with a 23.98 project, and your record VTR is a Sony HDW-M2000 (or any other Sony recorder that does not have the 2:3 pulldown option card - which can include the SRW5500, HDW-500, and HDW-1800 - the HDW-M2000 doesn't even offer the 2:3 pulldown card as an option)- you ARE NOT going to "simply run it thru the SD out of the HD Deck" - because without the 2:3 pulldown option card, NOTHING COMES OUT of the SD-SDI or analog composite or component outputs.

There are lots of "add ons" that I may have mentioned, like the AJA HD10MD3, and the Cobalt Digital 8021, that will take a HD-SDI 23.98 signal, and add the hardware pulldown (AJA will only do the 2:3 pulldown to an SDI output, the Cobalt will do a HD-SDI to HD-SDI conversion) - but with NOTHING other than the AVID Adrenaline, a Sony HDW-M2000, and a 23.98 master, you aint' doing NOTHING other than delivering a 23.98 master. PERIOD.
Of course, he can send his tape out to a dub house.

Bob Zelin


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Bill Paterno
Re: Connecting Gen10 sync generator to HD CAM Deck...help needed
on Dec 17, 2007 at 7:03:25 pm

I just checked with the rental house and they say that the f500 that we are receiving has the optional pull down board installed. So, if I wanted to make my life easier and cut at 1080i 59.94 (so I can downcovert directly from Adrenaline), would the output ultimately still be coming out of HD-SDI? I found the manual for the deck...I uploaded it to my site

http://www.maxfilms.com/pdfs/f500.pdf





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Bob Zelin
Re: Connecting Gen10 sync generator to HD CAM Deck...help needed
on Dec 17, 2007 at 8:16:03 pm

Hi Bill -

yes. There are obviously 2 philosophy's on how to do this job, but you can absolutely use the 2:3 pulldown feature in the HDW-500 to turn the job into 59.94, and do this job with your GEN10 and AVID Adreanline, using either 525 standard def black, or 1125 (1080i 59.94) tri level sync to lock everything up. And when you are done outputting to your HDW-500, you will simply hit the play button on the VTR to make Digi Beta, Beta or DVD-R/VHS copies. No problems, no other menus.

The purpose of editing at 23.98 is to create a universal master, so it can go anywhere, as Jeremy pointed out. But you are just doing a simple TV show, where you are using 23.98 field tapes. In my opinion, make it as easy on yourself as possible. Once you do this, I don't care what TV you are monitoring on - they will all work.

Bob Zelin


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Connecting Gen10 sync generator to HD CAM Deck...help needed
on Dec 17, 2007 at 8:18:31 pm

[Bob Zelin] "you aint' doing NOTHING other than delivering a 23.98 master. PERIOD. "

All the more reason to work @ 23.98.


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Bob Zelin
Re: Connecting Gen10 sync generator to HD CAM Deck...help needed
on Dec 15, 2007 at 10:04:45 pm

if you still have problems, when you write back (like "its still not working"), please state what TV monitor you are using to see the HD signal, and if your tapes were transfered at 23.98 or 59.94, and if you need to deliver your show at 23.98 or 59.94.

Bob Zelin


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Kevin Johnson
Re: Connecting Gen10 sync generator to HD CAM Deck...help needed
on Apr 15, 2008 at 5:39:59 pm

Does anyone know the best/easiest way to create a 59.94 master from a 23.98 tape to preserve time code accuracy? We tend to make a 23.98 master with bars/slate/countdown/program start at 1 hour, which makes it difficult to dub to 59.94 as the TC will drift...We'll either have to load the master back in with pull down then output, or assemble edit deck to deck in chunks, so the the countdown and program start lineup. How is this typically done?

Thanks

FCP Editor
Washington, DC


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