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Baseband video out of FCPX? Ever?

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Devin Crane
Baseband video out of FCPX? Ever?
on Jul 11, 2011 at 11:00:20 pm

After reading about the Apple meeting in London, that there will be "hooks" for tape ingest and output from FCPX or at least baseband video monitoring through third party products from AJA, Black Magic, and Matrox. Now the blogs are backpedalling that there won't be any baseband video at all just preview through Macintosh Desktop. Is this true?


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Bob Zelin
Re: Baseband video out of FCPX? Ever?
on Jul 12, 2011 at 6:37:01 pm

at this moment, there are no hooks for Matrox, AJA, Blackmagic, MOTU, CAT DV, or anything else, other than "mirror desktop image", which sucks. Will Apple ever change this - if any Apple employee ever even hinted at this (or anything else) happening before it's release, they would be fired, so no matter what rumor you hear, it's not true until Apple does a formal release.

If I were you, I would start brushing up on my Adobe Premier or AVID Media Composer skills. With that said, almost 100% of the people that I know are simply doing nothing, and are going to continue to use FCP 7, until it doesn't run on new computers.

bob Zelin



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Baseband video out of FCPX? Ever?
on Jul 12, 2011 at 8:32:39 pm

[Devin Crane] "Now the blogs are backpedalling that there won't be any baseband video at all just preview through Macintosh Desktop. Is this true?"

Who's "the blogs"?


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gary adcock
Re: Baseband video out of FCPX? Ever?
on Jul 12, 2011 at 8:43:25 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Who's "the blogs"?"

Not mine.

I have been pretty adamant about the need for Lion and Thunderbolt to go forward.
We are talking about 100's of millions of dollars in the FCP eco-system, I doubt that anyone wants to walk away from 10 years of development.

I also doubt that much of the previous generation of connectivity hardware will be useful in 2-3 years. It is VERY clear that Apple's FCPX is not looking backward- so why should the hardware vendors?

gary adcock
Studio37

Post and Production Workflow Consultant
Production and Post Stereographer
Chicago, IL

http://blogs.creativecow.net/24640



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Devin Crane
Re: Baseband video out of FCPX? Ever?
on Jul 13, 2011 at 12:22:52 am

No not your's Gary. What may have been assumed from the Apple meeting with execs in London that current PCI-E cards would work with FCPX and that doesn't seem to be the case.
http://alex4d.wordpress.com/2011/07/06/notes-from-apples-london-pro-briefin...
Now Matrox has come out and stated that there won't be Professional monitoring with FCPX. Hopefully this changes, I like FCPX for the most part. After downloading MC5.5 and realizing it won't be long before they go through the same thing as FCPX with a new 64bit MC6, I'm sure they have learned somethings from Apple in the mean time. The GUI reminded me of OSX9 definite need of an Update. Powerful yes but a dinosaur in regards to workflow, IMHO.



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Baseband video out of FCPX? Ever?
on Jul 13, 2011 at 12:31:56 am

Matrox said this? No way.

In version 10.0 maybe, but I'm sure they didn't say FCPX will have no baseband support ever.

Thunderbolt!


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Devin Crane
Re: Baseband video out of FCPX? Ever?
on Jul 13, 2011 at 12:43:58 am

"FCP X does not support professional video monitoring. For full-screen, preview-quality output you can use the second DisplayPort output from your computer in Full Screen Mode. The audio outputs of the MXO2 devices can be used for audio monitoring."

http://heathmcknight.com/2011/07/matrox-adds-tape-captureoutput-monitoring-...

Thunderbolt looks cool but man I just bought 2 new Mac Pros, maybe there's a work around to add TB via PCI-E.



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Bob Zelin
Re: Baseband video out of FCPX? Ever?
on Jul 13, 2011 at 3:04:36 pm

Devin writes -
Thunderbolt looks cool but man I just bought 2 new Mac Pros, maybe there's a work around to add TB via PCI-E.



Devin -
what is your obsession with having to work with FCP X only. There are LOTS of other programs on the market, and FCP X is not the end all to be all. Sonnet Technology has shown a PCIe extender chassis for Thunderbolt, so you can use AJA cards (and everythign else) with a Thunderbolt interface, but let me bet you $1000 right now, that you will NEVER EVER see a Thunderbolt PCIe card for your existing MAC Pro's. If Apple ever releases a new Mac Pro, this will most certainly have a Thunderbolt port on it (from the motherboard), but you are going to be OUT OF LUCK with your wonderful new purchase of your Mac Pros (which are of course wonderful computers). I am not aware of one single person who is making a living with FCP X, and I am not counting on this, or it's future interfaces to make a living either.

Bob Zelin



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Devin Crane
Re: Baseband video out of FCPX? Ever?
on Jul 13, 2011 at 4:08:46 pm

[Bob Zelin] "what is your obsession with having to work with FCP X only."

Because I actually like it, so shoot me! I don't need XML, EDL, OMF, I work in a studio environment where most of my source footage is already mastered. All I need is an editor that will render a 58:30 with lots of graphics in less than 6 hours and store metadata. If in a year FCPX doesn't do broadcast monitoring among a handful of other things then yes I'm going to Premier or MC6 if it's out by then. After working with MC5.5 I realized it won't be long before they have to do the same thing and re-write the whole code into 64bit, I'm sure it's a beast but man it;s long in the tooth as far as the GUI goes.



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Baseband video out of FCPX? Ever?
on Jul 13, 2011 at 3:06:12 pm

Right now it doesn't, but there is no word of the future. Perhaps they should have added "at this time" but maybe that violates some sort of strict Apple rule.


I'm holding tight for Lion, then the first FCPx update. If nothing is announced or no news about connectivity after that time, I'm off to greener pastures on the AJA farm as the FCP7 suite is aging by the minute.


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Nick Toth
Re: Baseband video out of FCPX? Ever?
on Jul 16, 2011 at 7:18:57 pm

I recently queried Larry Jordan about AJA and Blackmagic and got this reply:

"As of now, video out from FCP X is not possible, according to both Blackmagic Design and AJA."

While I would say this is a non-answer because it doesn't tell us anything we don't already know note that the qualifier "as of now" is basically the same as "at this time" which Jeremy mentioned.

Having edited nonlinear for nearly 20 years I look forward to where FCP X is going. Avid and Premiere have never been my cup of tea. FCP X is a lot more powerful right now than many give it credit for (given my two weeks experience with it).

NT


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walter biscardi
Re: Baseband video out of FCPX? Ever?
on Jul 17, 2011 at 3:14:45 am

[Nick Toth] "FCP X is a lot more powerful right now than many give it credit for (given my two weeks experience with it)."

I don't think anyone is questioning how "powerful" it might be. We're all just questioning the "island mentality" of the workflow.

It's a completely stand alone product that is unable to interface with just about anything else out there in the real production world, even its predecessor. And then to simply rely on third party vendor to somehow make it all work "sometime in the future" is mind boggling to a lot of us.

The best features on the world on a lone island doesn't really do much good in the collaborative workflow. It's kind of like building a brand new car that only runs on railroad tracks. Super cool and super fast, but you can only go where the tracks take you.

I'm just not going to wait around to see what Apple might or might not do and what the 3rd parties might or might not be able to do. I've waited two years for a better workflow and right now, this ain't it. So for now Avid / Adobe here we come and maybe even a little Autodesk while we're at it. Exciting times for sure!

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author, Chef.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

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gary adcock
Re: Baseband video out of FCPX? Ever?
on Jul 17, 2011 at 2:17:40 pm

[Nick Toth] "While I would say this is a non-answer because it doesn't tell us anything we don't already know note that the qualifier "as of now" is basically the same as "at this time" which Jeremy mentioned.
"


Many of us are under NDAs to not discuss hardware or software tools that have not been publicly released, hence the reason for that type of response.

SO What part of there is a Brand New OSX Lion that is ready to drop on Mac users that you seem to be missing here? That OS will change everything for EVERY APP that runs on the platform.

FCPX is not looking backwards, and with a completetly new OS looming, nearly everything about the release screams move to the FUTURE. No manufacuturer I know of is going to spend the amount of resources on making hardware that apple will shortly no longer support at the OS level- what happens with Thrunderbolt coming ?

If you want that 3 yr old hardware to work, stay with FCP7, if you want to work in FCPX you are going to have to get new hardware.

gary adcock
Studio37

Post and Production Workflow Consultant
Production and Post Stereographer
Chicago, IL

http://blogs.creativecow.net/24640



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walter biscardi
Re: Baseband video out of FCPX? Ever?
on Jul 17, 2011 at 3:11:11 pm

[gary adcock] "SO What part of there is a Brand New OSX Lion that is ready to drop on Mac users that you seem to be missing here? That OS will change everything for EVERY APP that runs on the platform."

And we're all supposed to jump on Lion the very first day it drops? That goes counter to advice I've received from many MANY engineers at software and hardware companies alike. With Snow Leopard we waited almost 6 months before making the move because of the time required for all our software and hardware vendors to catch up and feel comfortable that the products were stable.


[gary adcock] "If you want that 3 yr old hardware to work, stay with FCP7, if you want to work in FCPX you are going to have to get new hardware."

So that's why the software is so cheap now and they've dropped so many apps from the suite? We need to buy all new hardware so apple softens the blow by making it dirt cheap? And you really want me to buy the first generation of thunderbolt products the moment they become available? Really?

There's nothing wrong with the Kona 3 and it's flat out amazing that AJA designed a piece of hardware that keeps getting new features 3 to 4 years after release. There's certainly nothing "3 years old" about those two Kona 3Gs and Kona LHi I just installed in January. Do I need to replace those too? So I need to buy 6 or 7 copies of the $299 software and then buy all new hardware right now too? Wow, that's pretty steep for cards that are 6 months old and don't seem to have anything wrong with them that I can see.

See, this is why I AM looking forward to Adobe and Avid. They have figured out a way to move their platforms into the digital, no need to transcode realm, without a complete upheaval in our workflow. I'm amused by how some people are praising "how fast" FCP X is. Funny thing is, I'm saying the exact same thing about Adobe Premiere Pro 5.5. All of us using FCP up until now never realized just HOW SLOW that application really was. Sure it's fast for a lot of things, but when it came to digital media formats, then it really slowed the workflow down. But we accepted it because it was cheap.

Now thanks to Apple and this release, I've been looking across the entire NLE landscape and have found that there are much better options for us and we don't need to rely on Apple any longer. Heck those Avid presentations this week with the new MC6 interface re-design were awesome.

If your future revolves around FCP X then have at it and if it turns into something useful in a few years then we'll take a second look. But don't ever tell me I'm looking backwards because I choose not jump into the pool early and spend a LOT money re-tooling my infrastructure for the sake of $299 software. I'm am looking forward in a way that's smart for my company and most importantly for my clients.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author, Chef.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

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gary adcock
Re: Baseband video out of FCPX? Ever?
on Jul 17, 2011 at 4:09:02 pm

[walter biscardi] "And we're all supposed to jump on Lion the very first day it drops?"

Walter,
WTF? Since when has that EVER been the case with a new OS, and why would you think that I would be recommending such an asinine idea?

IT takes months to get the bugs out of a new OS, and this change to Lion will be significantly harder then the PPC to Intel switch we went thru more than decade ago right after FCP first came out.

What part of building the VERY first versions of FCP on the soon to be deard dead OS9 platform kept development in the toliet for years does everyone one forget here. Why does everyone think this is the first time this has happened with FCP?


"We need to buy all new hardware so apple softens the blow by making it dirt cheap?"

You sir, seem to have forgotten that Apple is a HARDWARE Manufacturer.

The only way they really make money is selling physical devices- the hardware has ALWAYS been the dongle for the ease of use and simplictiy of the UI and Tools.



[walter biscardi] "There's nothing wrong with the Kona 3 and it's flat out amazing that AJA designed a piece of hardware that keeps getting new features 3 to 4 years after release. There's certainly nothing "3 years old" about those two Kona 3Gs and Kona LHi I just installed in January."

There is a very big difference between the nearly 6yr old Kona 3 (released in 2006?) and the newer, less than 2 year old K3G and LHI cards you are referring too.

So don't throw crap at me when your very explanation is invalidated because the hardware you installed in January considerably less than the 3 years old parts that I refer too. To me Walter, your bitching does not hold any water here, you are worried about stuff you installed in Jan 2011, and is considerably newer than the 3 yr old time frame given.

I'm glad you have a new platform, I have worked with all 3 products for years. When and if the time comes to change NLE for me is in the future, I have no need to jump off that cliff today, and I am wondering why everyone feels the need to leap off the cliff in the first 45 days of release.

Most people don't even touch an OS upgrade within that timeframe, why are you planning to risk your business without waiting at least 3 months to get a view of the horizon.

gary adcock
Studio37

Post and Production Workflow Consultant
Production and Post Stereographer
Chicago, IL

http://blogs.creativecow.net/24640



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walter biscardi
Re: Baseband video out of FCPX? Ever?
on Jul 17, 2011 at 4:51:10 pm

[gary adcock] "WTF? Since when has that EVER been the case with a new OS, and why would you think that I would be recommending such an asinine idea?"

Probably this line: SO What part of there is a Brand New OSX Lion that is ready to drop on Mac users that you seem to be missing here? That OS will change everything for EVERY APP that runs on the platform.

That sounds to me like you're saying the soon to be released Lion is the missing link for many of our issues. So what timeframe should be all be working with then?


[gary adcock] "
You sir, seem to have forgotten that Apple is a HARDWARE Manufacturer.

The only way they really make money is selling physical devices- the hardware has ALWAYS been the dongle for the ease of use and simplictiy of the UI and Tools."


Yes, and the writing is on the wall for the Mac Pro, that's obvious. Apple will be an iMac, Laptop and Tablet company. So what hardware should I run out and buy and who will make it? Apple or 3rd party?

What's the timeframe for all this hardware to come out and when will be it be useful / stable for us?


[gary adcock] "So don't throw crap at me when your very explanation is invalidated because the hardware you installed in January considerably less than the 3 years old parts that I refer too. To me Walter, your bitching does not hold any water here, you are worried about stuff you installed in Jan 2011, and is considerably newer than the 3 yr old time frame given."

No I'm concerned about the 3 edit suites running Kona 3, 2 Edit Suites running Kona 3G and the 1 edit suite running Kona LHi and all of them having the ability to output proper video to our Flanders Scientific reference monitors. I see that Adobe Premiere Pro running 64bit can already do this and it looks like Avid will be joining the party soon.

Right now, FCP X cannot output proper video to those monitors so I can only commment on what I see right now. Apple isn't talking about anything so I won't speculate on the future. Only Adobe and Avid seem to be actually talking to editors about the future paths of their products right now.


[gary adcock] "I'm glad you have a new platform, I have worked with all 3 products for years. When and if the time comes to change NLE for me is in the future, I have no need to jump off that cliff today, and I am wondering why everyone feels the need to leap off the cliff in the first 45 days of release."

I had a fantastic conversation with a fellow editor this week and we both laughed about "why do you have jump so quick!" "you're making a rash decision!" We gave Apple 24 months to come up with a new 64bit version of Final Cut Pro. Heck I should have moved off at NAB 2010 when there really wasn't much of an update to FCP 7 while Adobe and Avid were both supporting native workflow with digital formats.

Then I could have very easily just jumped in April 2011 when that "sneak peek" foretold what a cluster the release was going to be. But I gave Apple a full 24 months and waited until they released the product publicly.

I think I gave Apple plenty of time and quite honestly I have absolutely no trust in them for the future. Based on all those I've talked to in the beta program, and I know a lot of folks who are in there, Apple really didn't take any input from editors. They designed what they wanted to design and expected the editors to follow along.

I don't call what we're doing jumping off a cliff. I call it analyzing a product based on what I can see today and not what it "might do" in the future and saying it's not right for us. Regardless of what Lion does or does not bring, I simply don't trust Apple any longer with my livelihood. I appreciate that Avid, Adobe and Autodesk are actively listening to and taking input from Editors in the field to make our work more efficient without destroying collaborative workflows.


[gary adcock] "Most people don't even touch an OS upgrade within that timeframe, why are you planning to risk your business without waiting at least 3 months to get a view of the horizon."

I'm tired of Apple's games quite honestly and no longer trust them with my livelihood. 12 months from now they could just get bored with FCP X and drop it altogether to just roll some of the features into iMovie and keep iLife running.

So best to you in waiting for Apple to release whatever it is you get to play with under NDA, I'm going to work with companies that are working more directly with the rest of us.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author, Chef.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

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gary adcock
Re: Baseband video out of FCPX? Ever?
on Jul 17, 2011 at 10:23:29 pm

[walter biscardi] "That sounds to me like you're saying the soon to be released Lion is the missing link for many of our issues. So what timeframe should be all be working with then? "


There is a totally new OS dropping that will fundamentally change the nature of the platform. You yourself says it takes 6+months to make the conversion. WHY would anyone be planning this level of transition on an App only when the OS is fundamentally changing at the core. This is what you should be worried about, not wheter you use FCPX any longer

The bigger questions is are you going to be working on a MAC any longer, What happens if have to go to Windows to support your chosen NLE as a platform? Are you considering that, as that is how drastic the OS change that is coming.

Walter, its been slightly about 30 days, with a OS shake up around the corner that could potentially be more disruptive than the coversion from PPC to Intel for Mac Users and all you are worrying about is this one app.

I will state this again, FCPX is about moving it forward, I have not once ever called FCPX Professional, not for me and my situation. I have been working with all of the NLE's so my transition will be shorter than most.

My FCS 3 suite under SL runs just fine right now, so I am waiting to see if I am forced to change NLE or Platform, but there are a number of options available.

gary adcock
Studio37

Post and Production Workflow Consultant
Production and Post Stereographer
Chicago, IL

http://blogs.creativecow.net/24640



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walter biscardi
Re: Baseband video out of FCPX? Ever?
on Jul 17, 2011 at 10:45:55 pm

[gary adcock] "The bigger questions is are you going to be working on a MAC any longer, What happens if have to go to Windows to support your chosen NLE as a platform? Are you considering that, as that is how drastic the OS change that is coming."

Absolutely. I've got Windows 7 already at the shop will be installing on one of our machines this week. The fact that Avid / Adobe both work cross platform is a HUGE consideration of where we go from here. I know that moving forward I have the option to purchase either a Mac or a Windows machine and the software will work. I've already been asking around for Windows desktop recommendations as I research whether to even stay with the Mac platform.

I also know that the ethernet SAN we have installed in our shop will also work cross platform and even with Linux if we were so inclined.


[gary adcock] "Walter, its been slightly about 30 days, with a OS shake up around the corner that could potentially be more disruptive than the coversion from PPC to Intel for Mac Users and all you are worrying about is this one app."

No I'm not worried about this one app any longer. The fact that Apple dropped this not ready for us app after two years made me put our plans for the future into gear. I can see that cross platform support is going to have to be a must for us moving forward. If we stay with Apple and their FCP X plans, whatever they might be, that means we must commit to Lion and working in Apple's sandbox only.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author, Chef.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

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Nick Toth
Re: Baseband video out of FCPX? Ever?
on Jul 17, 2011 at 7:06:57 pm

Gary - I would like my recently purchased Kona cards to give me broadcast video out with FCP X if that is at all possible. Since there has been no definitive answer at this point the possibility still exists. If it ends up that my current Kona cards will not work then I will take whatever steps are necessary to continue with the FCP X since I have been using it and like it. I've been through bigger changes than this.

NT


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gary adcock
Re: Baseband video out of FCPX? Ever?
on Jul 17, 2011 at 10:09:18 pm

[Nick Toth] "I would like my recently purchased Kona cards to give me broadcast video out with FCP X if that is at all possible. Since there has been no definitive answer at this point the possibility still exists."

1) I do not know what kind of hardware you are working with or what your system is- so how can I tell you anything of value?

I have been very clear that it is my understanding and beleif that hardware released within the same time frame as APPLE hardware that supports FCPX should be available under Lion.

2) it has been made abundantly clear that you will most likely never be able to natively support hardware from FCPX under OSX 10.6, the current work around is a hack that has been available at the OS level for as long as FCP has been around.

3) The New Apple OS is not shipping. That is why no one is talking. I am not stupid enough to release info that some $800 billion dollar gorilla wants to keep private.

When Lion is shipping those who are not developers will find out what is going on. I was pretty clear in my last Cow piece on FCPX that some serious changes were being made and how they would effect ALL Apps on the Mac platform, and that would also include Avid and Adobe too?

gary adcock
Studio37

Post and Production Workflow Consultant
Production and Post Stereographer
Chicago, IL

http://blogs.creativecow.net/24640



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Nick Toth
Re: Baseband video out of FCPX? Ever?
on Jul 17, 2011 at 11:35:52 pm

[gary adcock] "1) I do not know what kind of hardware you are working with or what your system is- so how can I tell you anything of value? "

I was not asking questions of you Gary, just making some general commentary.

Everyone's situation is different. I still edit on FCP 4, 5 and 6 on different systems belonging to different clients. The job still gets done.

Whatever happens, happens as far as where FCP and Apple go from here. I'm sure some of us will take it in stride and continue on and others will fall by the wayside.

"Embrace Change" is the motto of the new corporate America. Too bad the change is often brought on by those who have no idea what is going on in the real world.

NT


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Robert Brown
Re: Baseband video out of FCPX? Ever?
on Jul 19, 2011 at 2:47:31 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "I'm holding tight for Lion, then the first FCPx update. If nothing is announced or no news about connectivity after that time, I'm off to greener pastures on the AJA farm as the FCP7 suite is aging by the minute."

That reminded me of how sick I am of the FCP Wait and See game. I've been playing that for a while now. I think Apple and their recent success has hypnotized a lot of people - probably myself included - and many of us stood in line to get whatever new thing they were coming out with. I for one have snapped out of it. FCP7 is the EOL of FCP for me, for now at least unless they really blow me away with something, and I seriously doubt that at his point.



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Baseband video out of FCPX? Ever?
on Jul 19, 2011 at 3:47:16 am

[Robert Brown] " I for one have snapped out of it. FCP7 is the EOL of FCP for me, for now at least unless they really blow me away with something, and I seriously doubt that at his point."

I hear you. Good luck in your endeavors!


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