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Stuart Cummings
New Ki Pro Mini
on Sep 11, 2010 at 8:00:08 pm

The new KI Pro Mini Has bean announced at IBC this thing is going to be very Hot! See AJA's web site for more info.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: New Ki Pro Mini
on Sep 11, 2010 at 9:55:33 pm

Can't wait to see it.


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Stuart Cummings
Re: New Ki Pro Mini
on Sep 11, 2010 at 11:20:12 pm

Aja has a page up on their site and a little video of it in action very cool indeed. And priced right too


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John Heagy
Re: New Ki Pro Mini
on Sep 12, 2010 at 4:26:03 am

Very nice! With all due respect... this what the Ki Pro should have been from the start.

Here's my favorite sentence in the description:
"Flash cards function as standard HFS drives when connected to a Mac computer via any standard off the shelf Compact Flash reader".
Finally!.. no more FAT32 NO_NAME volumes with 4GB "chunked" files. Somebody please tell me the Mini Formats the HFS CF cards with a unique volume name based on some user defined criteria... please! I'd be thrilled with a date stamp as volume name... anything but the same name over, and over, and over again!

Now.. make a Ki Pro Maxi that's 19" rack mountable with two 4GB fibre connections... kidding! First, release the new Ki Pro firmware so we get more than two channel audio... not kidding!

John Heagy


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: New Ki Pro Mini
on Sep 12, 2010 at 1:34:41 pm

I'm sure the CF cards will be named similar to how they are on the current Ki, by reel name when the card was formatted.


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Fred Jodry
Re: New Ki Pro Mini
on Sep 13, 2010 at 5:46:19 pm

John, if the software or KiPro output re-issues the same file-name over and over again then it`s recognizable to be renamed. Worse than something automatic that works but better than something that makes an automatic file-name that disappears, something that happens more often in Windows than Mac (or isoLinux). John, would you please drop an e- mail on my e- mail?

Re: New Ki Pro Mini
by John Heagy on Sep 12, 2010 at 12:26:03 am
...
Here's my favorite sentence in the description:
"Flash cards function as standard HFS drives when connected to a Mac computer via any standard off the shelf Compact Flash reader".
Finally!.. no more FAT32 NO_NAME volumes with 4GB "chunked" files. Somebody please tell me the Mini Formats the HFS CF cards with a unique volume name based on some user defined criteria... please! I'd be thrilled with a date stamp as volume name... anything but the same name over, and over, and over again!

John Heagy


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John Heagy
Re: New Ki Pro Mini
on Sep 15, 2010 at 9:11:57 pm

I suppose if one is loading/copying one card at a time the same name is okay, but not when you mount 5 P2 cards all coming up NO_NAME it invites errors. I'd much prefer a unique name that can be tracked back to the the camera or recording device that created it. Serial number and date_time of format would be perfect.

KP_12345_09152010_1732


[Fred Jodry] "please drop an e- mail"
What's your email Fred?


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: New Ki Pro Mini
on Sep 15, 2010 at 9:14:12 pm

[John Heagy] "I suppose if one is loading/copying one card at a time the same name is okay, but not when you mount 5 P2 cards all coming up NO_NAME it invites errors."

I can help you out on the appropriate P2 Forum, but your P2 cards don't have to be named NO_NAME.

There is a multitude of metadata that is available to P2, you just have to use it. Again, I can help you in the other forum.

Jeremy


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John Heagy
Re: New Ki Pro Mini
on Sep 15, 2010 at 10:32:49 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "I can help you out on the appropriate P2 Forum, but your P2 cards don't have to be named NO_NAME."

Thanks Jeremy, I've spoken to Panasonic and am aware one can rename P2s via the Finder, and even format with the serial number using Panasonic's P2Formatter app. Unfortunately if one formats a card in a camera... NO_NAME is the only result. Unless there's a forum called "Breaking cameraman of needless rituals" I don't think anyone can convince cameramen that formatting a P2 card on a Mac or PC trumps the camera. It's hard enough just getting them to label the darn things much less whipping out a laptop to format a card each time.

The whole FAT32 NO_NAME thing needs to die, so I'm hoping Aja kills it on the KiPro Mini!

John Heagy


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: New Ki Pro Mini
on Sep 16, 2010 at 2:22:12 am

[John Heagy] "nless there's a forum called "Breaking cameraman of needless rituals" I don't think anyone can convince cameramen that formatting a P2 card on a Mac or PC trumps the camera...The whole FAT32 NO_NAME thing needs to die"

Hmm, Ok. At least you know it's possible. The P2 format mitigates a myriad of challenges and is unbelievably well thought out. Though some people see it as 'stupid', and Panasonic is traditionally a PC company and this is the AJA forum sooooo....

[John Heagy] "so I'm hoping Aja kills it on the KiPro Mini!"

AJA on the other hand likes the MacOS (while supporting PCs) but CF cards will be formatted HFS+ (Mac OS Extended) and if they follow the method of the KiPro, they will be named the same reel number as when the drive was formatted in the Ki. I would imagine since there's two slots in the mini, some sort of logical n+1 system woudl occur when formatting multiple cards, but we will wait and see.

Jeremy


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John Heagy
Re: New Ki Pro Mini
on Sep 16, 2010 at 11:06:46 pm

[John Heagy] ""Breaking cameraman of needless rituals" "

Ok that's a bit cruel of me, so I'd like to retract that because it's hard to argue against not formatting cards in the recording device. That stemmed from the general NO_NAME frustration.

[Jeremy Garchow] "The P2 format mitigates a myriad of challenges and is unbelievably well thought out. Though some people see it as 'stupid'..."

Hi praise for P2 in an Aja forum. Count me in as leaning toward the 'stupid' camp. I'd be interested in the many challenges P2 mitigates as compared to the Aja QT based work flows. See how I brought it back to an Aja discussion there ;) So what are my issues with P2... let's begin.

1) NO_NAME... nuf said
2) FAT32 and spanned clips on the same card. Acceptable on consumer stuff.. not professional.
3) CONTENTS... over and over again.
4) No way to give someone a shot without creating the whole CONTENTS dir all over again.
5) "House of Cards" atom directory. Move any .xml, or .mxf and the shot is invalid.
6) No Reel/Tape metadata field. This one is really hard to believe! There is an "Altitude" field... so that's useful. Calibrated will map "Program Name" to "Reel" in QT to fix this glaring omission.
7) 0001BZ.mxf Only two hex numbers to ensure unique file names! So you may get duplicate filenames once every 1000 shots or so.
8) Requires specialized "P2 aware" software to view clips.
9) No "wrapped" clip to open directly.
10) Last_Clip.txt... another puzzle piece to loose.
11) AVC-I is too "heavy" for editing when compared to ProRes. It's fine for deliverables and playout servers, but is not an edit ready format... IMHO
12) Panasonic P2 media manager can only deal with P2 media. This is true off most camera manufacturers. Arri... take notice there!
13) Proxy file with no TC track or quality audio... useless!

Compared to a QT ProRes Ki Pro recording.. ahh... like that move back to Aja?... P2 media is a virtual "lock box" After a free ProRes decoder download, I can view our production ProRes media on any Mac or PC including TC! On the downside... there's Apples secrecy paranoia and their "damn the torpedoes" upgrade policy!

Nuf said!

John Heagy


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: New Ki Pro Mini
on Sep 17, 2010 at 3:51:23 pm

I should state here, this is not an AJA vs Panasonic debate. This boils down to media containers, namely QT vs MXF.

I use both the AJA KiPro and P2. I love them both, but I think you are missing a lot about the MXF structure. If FCP could use it natively, you wouldn't be complaining. Almost all other NLE's can use MXF files natively and as a matter of fact, Avid captures to it's own form of MXF. Is it is a very robust container and has been created for the simple notion of exchanging media. Quicktime was created to serve websites. If the KiPro could record to MXF, there's no doubt I'd use that functionality and still reap the benefits of the KiPro recording medium (meaning a hard drive vs a PCMCIA card). In my opinion, this would be the ultimate recording medium.

[John Heagy] "1) NO_NAME... nuf said"

Ok. However you see it. If you have a good card reader you can tell what card you are working on. And once the media is off of the card, it's all a big pool of data anyway. It's always about the media management no matter what form of video data you are working with.

[John Heagy] "2) FAT32 and spanned clips on the same card. Acceptable on consumer stuff.. not professional."

FAT32 is used, as I said earlier, mainly because Panasonic is a PC company. The 4GB file size is used in windows operating systems. This is a real life limit. In order to be able for windows stations to read/copy the P2 media, the files must be under 4GBs. MacOS can read fat32 drives. Therefore, a PC or Mac user doesn't have to buy extra software to read/copy media from P2 drives. This really gets interesting of you have an IT based workflow and have multiple OSes that need to access the same media.

Spanned clips? Not a big deal.

[John Heagy] "4) No way to give someone a shot without creating the whole CONTENTS dir all over again."

If FCP was able to natively read MXF files, this wouldn't be a problem. I have a QT component that makes MXF available to the OS/QT and can also rewrap the OP-Atom to OP1a and include audio in the file if you want. This is a short coming of FCP, and not P2.

[John Heagy] "5) "House of Cards" atom directory. Move any .xml, or .mxf and the shot is invalid. "

Again, only with FCP. Not a shortcoming of p2.

[John Heagy] "6) No Reel/Tape metadata field."

In this instance, a reel name has a different meaning than in tape. In fact, every clip in P2 has a unique ID number called the Global Clip ID (and it is way more characters than the file name suggests). This becomes completely handy when you are dealing with thousands of clips and many many TBs of footage. The reel name then becomes the Global Clip ID name. Reel names aren't necessarily need in an IT workflow. What does a reel (or tape) name mean on a 48TB SAN full of media?

[John Heagy] "7) 0001BZ.mxf Only two hex numbers to ensure unique file names! So you may get duplicate filenames once every 1000 shots or so."

Solved with Global Clip ID. Again, not a problem, but could be with FCPs shotty file name based media management. This is a short coming of FCP.

[John Heagy] "8) Requires specialized "P2 aware" software to view clips. "

How about free? MXF4mac makes a free Qt and MXF player and you don't need the MXF4mac QT component to use it:

http://mxf4mac.com/index.php/applications.html and then find MXF4mac Player.

Also, this is a professional format. Back in the day, I didn't gripe about not being able to play my HDCam tapes on my home VCR. Again, this is a limitation of Quicktime/MacOS and not P2 in general.

[John Heagy] "9) No "wrapped" clip to open directly."

Can be fixed with the proper tools. Not a shortcoming of P2, but rather the OS/QT.

[John Heagy] "10) Last_Clip.txt... another puzzle piece to loose."

I have never needed it. Ever.

[John Heagy] "11) AVC-I is too "heavy" for editing when compared to ProRes. It's fine for deliverables and playout servers, but is not an edit ready format... IMHO"

This is a true statement. AVC-I is not multi-proc aware on the Mac. This is definitely can slow some things down if you need to make an AVC-I file.

[John Heagy] "12) Panasonic P2 media manager can only deal with P2 media. This is true off most camera manufacturers. Arri... take notice there!"

See answer to number 8.

[John Heagy] "13) Proxy file with no TC track or quality audio... useless!"

I guess if you use proxies, this could be a problem? We don't use proxies. Since the proxy is also present in the P2 MXf structure, I would imagine it would be up to a developer to be able to choose between proxy and full res video MXF. The audio is already in the P2 structure in the audio folder. Separately. To me, it's all there for the taking, it's just up to a developer to harness what's already there.

What you missed:

CBR vs VBR. CBR allows an index of a file to be very small and written as the very first part of a file as every frame is the same size. At that point it is simple math. An index says, the file is "this long" so in order to get to 103 frames in, you take the starting point plus 103 frames. CBR allows this to happen extremely easily. This also means that the index to a file is written first, followed by the video and audio essences. This also means that streaming of media (think file transfer, or recording) can be interrupted and the recorded media is still valid. In order to open a file the index directs an application to each an every frame of the file (think scrubbing). So, while transferring, if the power goes out, your computer quits, someone drops a camera, that file (as long as the recording medium is still "alive" and mountable) will be valid and readable as it doesn't need to be closed (meaning finishing the writing of the index). With VBR material (say, ProRes) the index needs to constantly be updated as each frame is a different size, which changes the size of the index and so if something goes kaput, the file won't be available as the index is not available/still growing or incomplete. Have you ever pulled a P2 card when it's still recording? That media is still valid.

Separate video and audio files:

You can choose to ignore the audio completely if you work with double system sound, or it allows mixing of both P2 and double system sound, or you can choose which channels to use/ignore. Very handy in post workflows.

Metadata as a separate file:

You might see this is a weakness, but it allows instant access to metadata with almost any program including a text reader. Nothing special is needed. This means very fast and easy changing of metadata without having to open anything else but that text file and development is 'more simple' as it's it's text creation and specialized media formats do not need to be opened or rewritten, just a text file. Very clever if you ask me.

So, there's a lot of thought in MXF format that gets recorded to P2, and in my opinion is certainly not stupid. I am not saying it is better or worse than anything, but if you scratch the surface of the P2 MXF file structure, you will see a very well thought out, complicated because it has to be, extremely robust IT based workflow.

Jeremy


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John Heagy
Re: New Ki Pro Mini
on Sep 17, 2010 at 11:15:49 pm

Thanks for the in depth response Jeremy. Seems most of my issues are either not issues to you, or solved by wrapping in QT by third party tools for FCP. We use Calibrated and CatDV to solve our issues with P2.

I agree that FCP's file name centric linking is a pain. That's why we have our own linking system in place, it uses what I assumed would be universally adopted metadata that's been around since the days of Thomas Edison... Reel and Timecode. I do understand that I could substitute Reel with the 64 character Global ID, but Reel is useful for communication purposes. People refer to reel name all the time, it's part of the video production vocabulary. Nobody's going to walk in an edit room and ask for: 060A2B340101010501010D4313000000413F84D4635305DD0080458230DC9013 I know that's the UUID, but that's my choice... 6 digits or a number that exceeds the number of atoms in the known universe? I know... but how many people actually enter a custom User ID on the camera?


It remains ludicrous that "Reel" was omitted and "Altitude" was added. Reel links not only our 300TB worth of media, but all the trillions of frames we have on tape and film. Backwards compatibility... that's what Reel gives you!

I also agree that the P2 system was designed by IT minded engineers. It's obvious that Reel was omitted because there is no "Reel" in computer data. I suppose we should not use the term "clip" or "bin" because that refers to film. The whole P2 system is a classic case of IT purism over practicality, and is at the root of most of my complaints. I'm surpised they settled on such a short file name for the actual files. The uniqueness of a file name should not be virtualized in metadata, but hard coded in the file name itself. IMHO

As far as separate or embedded metadata goes... why not both? Again, Panasonic chose the a purist approach and virtualized most all metadata. If one drags a video mxf out, it will "know" it's timecode, but what about all the other pieces? I abhor the idea that a piece of media can be "orphaned", or basic information lost, my moving it from it's "Home" aka "CONTENTS". All our QT media has embedded Reel and TC and will link no matter where it goes or how it's chopped up. We can spawn a linking database anywhere, at any time, because the media is self contained and includes linking criteria. We do have additional information stored in a database, but all it's "papers" required for full "citizenship" are self contained at the file level. I would welcome a mxf OP1a file as long as it included the necessary "Papers".

There are absolutely solutions to my issues with P2. But I do like the idea of mounting a Ki Pro Mini on the back of a P2 camera. Of course adding a Ki Pro like that would add a failure point. I suppose the P2 recording could serve as backup.

Thanks for reading
John Heagy


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: New Ki Pro Mini
on Sep 18, 2010 at 3:30:46 am

First, thanks for keeping it amicable.

[John Heagy] "Seems most of my issues are either not issues to you, or solved by wrapping in QT by third party tools for FCP."

Using a QT wrapper to reference the MXF files has a whole other set of issues, so I don't use that software. No, I edit MXF natively using MXF4mac. I usually don't wrap to QT unless exporting a ref movie from compressor for transcode or whatever. I have been using their avc-i encoder to deliver MXf files to other people. It's been very flexible and most people know what to do with it. I even edit metadata using P2 Flow. That way people can choose whether or not they use the MXF file or make whatever they want with it, but that metadata shows up whether they use the MXf file, or choose to log and transfer with FCP. It was especially handy before Avid's ProRes AMA with MC5.0.

[John Heagy] "Nobody's going to walk in an edit room and ask for: 060A2B340101010501010D4313000000413F84D4635305DD0080458230DC9013 "

Hell I do that all the time!!! Just kidding. We sometimes use 2-3 camera per shoot and I can't tell you how many times I have had the same name from the same or different cameras on the same shoot. The Global Clip ID allows relinking to clips and I know each clip is right as the Reel (which is the Global Clip ID) FCp will relink to the proper file, and the MXF4mac QT Component takes care of the rest. It has saved me where FCP would have fell short.

[John Heagy] "It remains ludicrous that "Reel" was omitted and "Altitude" was added. "

Actually the GPS data is pretty kick arse. P2 Flow uses this data and links to Google Maps. You click on the GPS data and you will now where that shot was taken. Helpful if you have multiple locations and you don't know where that particular shot was from. I know, wouldn't happen very often, but it would be helpful to someone who uses it as is metadata in general.

[John Heagy] "The whole P2 system is a classic case of IT purism over practicality, and is at the root of most of my complaints."

I beg to differ. I think this particular implementation is the most flexible, but that certainly does not mean the easiest. It would be entirely possible to have the same P2 workflow in OP1a. I bet it will happen at some point with Panasonic's flavor of MXF.

[John Heagy] "'m surpised they settled on such a short file name for the actual files. The uniqueness of a file name should not be virtualized in metadata, but hard coded in the file name itself. IMHO "

I think this also has to do with OS limits. Again, it's mitigating a set of challenges. Since the metadata is kept in a separate metadata text file, a simple spotlight or Explorer search will bring up the clip name. It's down right simple in it's complexity. For instance, looking at a Global Clip ID in the reel column of an FCp project, I can copy and past that in to spotlight, and the Video XML pops up in the as the first and only file. That makes it pretty hard to screw up.

[John Heagy] "As far as separate or embedded metadata goes... why not both?"

You could. It's entirely possible to have an MXF container with all the info in it. A text track for metadata, timecode track, etc. An 'embedded' approach would mean that every piece of software that drives or reads in to the MXF would then have to know where that track is, be able to freely edit the embedded file, change the info and resave. This would change the size of the overall file and could potentially and perhaps cause problems, but I don't think it would take long for developers to catch up to it. Hell, this is all possible in QT, but I have never ever seen it used, and Apple owns QT. MXF is an open architecture. Editing an external text file is pretty easy from a developer stand point,.

[John Heagy] "If one drags a video mxf out, it will "know" it's timecode, but what about all the other pieces?"

Yeah, most of the tc is also written in to the MXF container or audio and video essence. Actually tc isn't written in to the P2 XMl at all, just start code plus a number of frames. Frame by frame metadata is written in to the essences, though.

[John Heagy] "I abhor the idea that a piece of media can be "orphaned", or basic information lost, my moving it from it's "Home" aka "CONTENTS"."

It does make things more complicated sometimes. There's no doubt. But it is more flexible, which allows capability. And keeps things professional ;)

[John Heagy] "All our QT media has embedded Reel and TC and will link no matter where it goes or how it's chopped up. We can spawn a linking database anywhere, at any time, because the media is self contained and includes linking criteria"

I don't see how this would be any different from MXF.

[John Heagy] "Of course adding a Ki Pro like that would add a failure point. I suppose the P2 recording could serve as backup."

When recording to Kipro, we always run p2 as backup.

Jeremy


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Fred Jodry
Re: New Ki Pro Mini
on Sep 16, 2010 at 5:25:53 pm

John, if the cards are already formatted nicely but with bum identical file-names then just rename them on a side computer in batches before you give them to your cameraman. If they`re formatted badly such as formatted in the annoying slowing uselessly security enriched NTFS format then format them in a type that`s good to use like HPS+?, FAT32, HPFS? and with your pet file-names pencilled on their label. To reuse them you use the other side of the pencil. When using videotape I found I had no problem seeing Black Sharpee pen ink written on black tape. Likewise with 3-1/2 inch floppies which probably have plastic cases like your cards, I don`t know, pencil might write onto and erase from the plasic OK if needed. I`m not trying to bully Garchow and gang out of the topic though. It looks like there`s plenty of good advice. (I just hope that A.J.A. makes increased production and hopefully 4:4:4 (:4)).
John, my e-mail is, educationalbroadcasting@hotmail.com, same as used in the personal sales topic. Fred


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gary adcock
Re: New Ki Pro Mini
on Sep 17, 2010 at 6:47:08 pm

[John Heagy] "The whole FAT32 NO_NAME thing needs to die, so I'm hoping Aja kills it on the KiPro Mini!"

your wish has been answered.
Mac formatted like the original unit.

gary adcock
Studio37

Post and Production Workflow Consultant
Production and Post Stereographer
Chicago, IL

http://blogs.creativecow.net/24640



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John Heagy
Re: New Ki Pro Mini
on Sep 17, 2010 at 8:41:59 pm

Thanks Gary, that's good news. I've never used the SxS slots in the Ki Pro. It makes sense to format all media (HD and SS) the same, but didn't want to assume. I believe the Ki Pro Mini will be the 1st device that does not use FAT32 on CF.

How does the current Ki Pro increment the volume name when two SxS cards are inserted?

Thanks
John Heagy


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: New Ki Pro Mini
on Sep 17, 2010 at 8:52:03 pm

[John Heagy] "How does the current Ki Pro increment the volume name when two SxS cards are inserted?"

The Express/34 cards are not cuurently enabled on the KiPro.


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gary adcock
Re: New Ki Pro Mini
on Sep 18, 2010 at 8:36:44 pm

[John Heagy] "Thanks Gary, that's good news. I've never used the SxS slots in the Ki Pro. It makes sense to format all media (HD and SS) the same, but didn't want to assume"

Unfortunately John,The SxS card functionality is still not available to anyone, not even me.

I agree that it is breaking new ground on the CF cards, but like Arri's concept with using the UDF format on Alexa maybe it is time for all of us to get away from using media formatted for operating systems that no longer require max volume sizes of less than 4G.

If you are in NYC next week I will be at the Createasphere event in Manhattan, but I am thinking your busy season is just starting.

gary adcock
Studio37

Post and Production Workflow Consultant
Production and Post Stereographer
Chicago, IL

http://blogs.creativecow.net/24640



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Fred Jodry
Re: New Ki Pro Mini
on Sep 19, 2010 at 1:09:22 pm

Fortunately the cards can be Mac- formatted but I thought I`d remind you guys that FAT16 is 2 GB volumes and FAT32 is 128 GB volumes. I hope I have a day free enough to go to Creatasphere. John, I`ll be waiting for your e- mail. Fred


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gary adcock
Re: New Ki Pro Mini
on Sep 19, 2010 at 2:05:31 pm

[Fred Jodry] "but I thought I`d remind you guys that FAT16 is 2 GB volumes and FAT32 is 128 GB volumes."

I am under the impression that FAT32 has a 4G File Size limit on the MAC side and that the OS segments automatically

gary adcock
Studio37

Post and Production Workflow Consultant
Production and Post Stereographer
Chicago, IL

http://blogs.creativecow.net/24640



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Wayne Carey
Re: New Ki Pro Mini
on Sep 22, 2010 at 3:10:54 pm

[John Heagy] "Unless there's a forum called "Breaking cameraman of needless rituals" "

You must have had a camera man also record 30 sec interviews in 15 minute chunks... Instead of 30 files of 30 sec interviews, you have one file 15 minutes in length with 30 30 sec interviews. Its tough to break the older guys from just "rolling on tape". That concept of the record button being clicked off and then clicked back on to create a new file is just too difficult for some.

_______________________________

Wayne Carey
Schazam Productions
http://web.mac.com/schazamproductions
schazamproductions@mac.com


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John Heagy
Re: New Ki Pro Mini
on Sep 23, 2010 at 1:18:03 am

Yeah that would make the list. I wish camera manufactures would include a "break" button that does the stop/start in one. Pressing stop then start does invite the possibility of the cameraman getting "out of sync" and stopping when he's shooting and visa versa. I think we've all seen the 1 hr shot from inside the camera case. A "break" button would be safer.

Unfortunately with the Ki Pro Mini being a separate recording device... this will only encourage the "keep it rolling" attitude.

John Heagy


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Fred Jodry
Re: New Ki Pro Mini
on Sep 27, 2010 at 2:56:00 pm

John Heagy, thanks to Microsoft`s insanity to toss it`s defective ingrammes (ingrammes? ingrahams?) from Office 2007 to browsers, internet portals, and Hotmail/Live quite lately, yours and others e- mails from your Hotmail e- mail to mine are relabeled "Conversation" and don`t go through. Please try my ka2pyq [aaaat] yahoo [dot] com e- mail, and preferrably from a non- Hotmail send, thanks. Isn`t UDF formatting that horrible security format found on the Microsoft Vista install DVD? ... lest us video gatherers (makers) need protection from ourselves-


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