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4:4:4 HDSR INTO FCP via AJA KONA Issues

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Keith Davies
4:4:4 HDSR INTO FCP via AJA KONA Issues
on Aug 6, 2010 at 10:11:46 pm

I am a London based operator, who has a lot of standard def experience, but have only been dealing with HDSR & HDCAM over the past few months.
I work in a Post Production Film Lab, mostly synching sound. I also capture to FCP via a Kona breakout in both SD & HD regularly for deliverables. My knowledge with FCP is extremely limited.

I am really struggling this week with the following project details:

Super 16mm shot @ 24FPS via 4K Spirit TK to HDSR 4:4:4 24FPS. This part is resolved. The footage is on tape.

From the HDSR I need to digitise in both HD & SD.
With the SD I have used 10bit Pro Res 24 via format convert on the back of the HDSR deck. This seems ok.

When I take the HD SDI into the AJA Kona, using 1080i 10 bit 24 I get a green image.

The only way I can get a true picture is by again taking the format convert out, which is 4:2:2. I would like it to be 4:4:4

Having read some posts here a understand a little more, I am thinking that a dual link Breakout box is required for two cables into FCP.

The Kona box used has 1 SDI in that we digitise both SD & HD, 2 out, and possibly YUV? but of that I am not certain.

Can someone confirm this is the case that I need 2 input bnc's on my Kona?

Also can you tell me which output of the HDSR deck I would attached to the 2nd Kona input?

One other issue I observed was the footage has been transfered at 24FPS to HDSR at true 24. On Close up movement there is some really horrific interlacing drag on the cinema display on one roll. The HDSR tape is fine. Does anyone know why this occurred? And is it to do with 24 projects.

Before we started the transfer I did mention that 23.98 is the normally solution for 24 projects, as it allows deliverables in SD & HD. Is this the case? I have only ever seen 23.98 tapes, in the same way when I work with sound for the USA it's always 29.97. We ran 24 as that was booked. Please keep in mind I am in a PAL enviroment, so 25 is the norm for me.
Any help would be welcome. I'd really like to be certain before reporting back to my current boss & the client.
I think a good book that explains HD would be useful if anyone could suggest one. I want to understand more about colour space in HD.

Thanks in advance.... Keith


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: 4:4:4 HDSR INTO FCP via AJA KONA Issues
on Aug 6, 2010 at 10:48:18 pm

What Kona card do you have?

The Kona 3 supports dual link, and the LHi supports 3G (essentially dual link over a single cable).

Jeremy


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Keith Davies
Re: 4:4:4 HDSR INTO FCP via AJA KONA Issues
on Aug 6, 2010 at 11:04:04 pm

Hi Jeremy, That I don't know. I plug to a rackmount box. Face on, as I recall the inputs to the right are AES audio. From the centre of the right side has one input SD, & 2 SD outs, & then I think there are possiblty YUV i/o's. Would you know where I would find the model number, as I can call someone to ask?
Can you expand on dual link? The title suggests 2 inputs. Thanks for the response. I wil post again when I know what card is intalled.
Keith.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: 4:4:4 HDSR INTO FCP via AJA KONA Issues
on Aug 6, 2010 at 11:09:43 pm

[Keith Davies] "Would you know where I would find the model number, as I can call someone to ask? "

Open the AJA control panel, then click on the info tab, you will have to click the tabs to the right. The first line will tell you what card you have installed right next to 'hardware ID'.

Dual link is two 1.5Gbps HDSDI cables used to handle the sheer amount of data that 4;4;4 1080p requires. The LHi has 3Gbps HDSDI which handles the same amount of data over a single connection.

Yes, dual link is two inputs.

If you have the LHe, you can't do 4:4:4. If you have the LHi, you will have to get a dual link to 3G converter of your SR deck does not have a 3G HDSDI output. AJA makes one:

http://www.aja.com/products/converters/converters-hd-3gm.php

Jeremy


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gary adcock
Re: 4:4:4 HDSR INTO FCP via AJA KONA Issues
on Aug 7, 2010 at 12:27:27 am

Ok
Couple of things, 444 can be both RGB and Y'Cb'Cr, but is always recorded as a dual link signal. The green image tells me you are only looking at a single channel ( channel 1 from the color). Only the Kona 3 card has this capability.

gary adcock
Studio37

Post and Production Workflow Consultant
Production and Post Stereographer
Chicago, IL

http://blogs.creativecow.net/24640



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Keith Davies
Re: 4:4:4 HDSR INTO FCP via AJA KONA Issues
on Aug 8, 2010 at 1:06:08 am

Hello Gary,
Thanks for the advice. It was one of your other posts regarding 4:4:4 deliverables that lead me to join this group. So I am glad to hear from you. I have created a little sequence from what I think I should do , & then asked myself all the questions I am not sure about. I think I am going to grab a Zip car and pop in tomorrow to try it out. I think my future employment is going to hinge on this one.

This is what I will try as I am assuming that I have a Kona3

For 4:4:4 HDSR into FCP Via AJA Kona3.

1. Connect HDSR HD SDI A & B to a 2 to 1 barrel connector.
2. Attach this to SDI input of the Kona3.
3. In FCP select 10bit RGB codec.

I am not sure about the barrel. Should I be loooking for a more sophisticated connector?

What baffles me is if 4:4:4 as a standard requires dual link, how does the Kona3 manage it?

I am assuming that the input data rate & storage needs will double from 4:4:2 data.
This concerns me as I have already encountered drop frames at 4:2:2.
I will find out what raid array I have.

I will let you know how I get on.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: 4:4:4 HDSR INTO FCP via AJA KONA Issues
on Aug 8, 2010 at 2:37:50 pm

I don't think you have a Kona 3 as you'd have two sdi inputs. Nuce idea, but you can't just barrel two sdi cables together and make 1.5g into 3G SDI. I'll say it again, the LHi can handle this, but you need a multiplexor to which Iinked to earlier. Gary said that the Kona 3 is the only card to handle dual link, but the LHi handles the same data, just in a different way.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: 4:4:4 HDSR INTO FCP via AJA KONA Issues
on Aug 8, 2010 at 3:26:16 pm

BTW - my hunch is that you have an LHe in which case you won't be able to capture 4:4:4 at all


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gary adcock
Re: 4:4:4 HDSR INTO FCP via AJA KONA Issues
on Aug 8, 2010 at 2:57:14 pm

[Keith Davies] "1. Connect HDSR HD SDI A & B to a 2 to 1 barrel connector."

I do not understand

The K3 card has SDI 1 & 2 as input, there is no way to combine 2 SDI signals as you mention.

Are you sure about your hardware- the K3 card should have what appears to be DVI connection and then 4 small gold plate Mini BNC's ( 2 in and 2 out)

"What baffles me is if 4:4:4 as a standard requires dual link, how does the Kona3 manage it?
"


It is a hardware/ software collaboration where both the A & B channels are recombined at the receiver back into one signal. The issue is there is not enough bandwidth on a single cable to handle all of the data needed.

gary adcock
Studio37

Post and Production Workflow Consultant
Production and Post Stereographer
Chicago, IL

http://blogs.creativecow.net/24640



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Keith Davies
Re: 4:4:4 HDSR INTO FCP via AJA KONA Issues
on Aug 9, 2010 at 4:37:10 pm

Hello again, Jeremy & Gary.
You are correct, I have here a Kona LHe and it is never going to do 4:4:4 as you told me.
Thanks very much for all your help.
I can't imagine how long it would have taken me to work this out solo.
We need to buy a Kona 3 & a new raid by the looks of things here.
Keith.


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Joseph Owens
Re: 4:4:4 HDSR INTO FCP via AJA KONA Issues
on Aug 9, 2010 at 11:02:12 pm

[Keith Davies] "For 4:4:4 HDSR into FCP Via AJA Kona3.
1. Connect HDSR HD SDI A & B to a 2 to 1 barrel connector.
2. Attach this to SDI input of the Kona3.
3. In FCP select 10bit RGB codec."


That would be a disaster, but you would likely have only seen garbage at the inputs anyway. I'm just worried about what would have happened "shorting" the outputs of the SR deck. People forget this is electricity that they're dealing with. "Dual-Link" DVI is NOT the same as "Dual Link" HD-SDI.

a Kona3 card and K3 breakout box combination has 4 HD-SDI BNC connectors: one pair each for Dual-Link A/B In and Out. On the back of a 4:4:4 optioned SR deck there will be SDI Dual Link I/O labelled as A and B, which you connect accordingly with separate BNC cables, preferably of identical length, so there are no clocking issues.
According to the 5500 manual, there are only specific "downconvert" paths for 24PsF 4:4:4, and SD output does not appear to be an option in either NTSC or PAL. Conversion to 4:2:2 requires the HKSR5001 Converter board option.

In the Kona3 control panel, you must select "Dual Link" to correctly re-encode the HD-SDI inputs, and then you have some options regarding transcode and codec within FCP. Make sure that you select the correct base frame rate... 24 PsF in your case.

The facility you work for turns individuals loose on $150,000 machines with no training? Fascinating. I hope their insurance is paid up.

jPo

You mean "Old Ben"? Ben Kenobi?


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: 4:4:4 HDSR INTO FCP via AJA KONA Issues
on Aug 10, 2010 at 1:27:51 am

[Joseph Owens] "People forget this is electricity that they're dealing with."

So, if I were to take HDSDI A and HDSDI B and stick them on my tongue, will it be the same sensation as a 9 volt battery? Or will my tongue undulate @ 60p? In 1080?

[Joseph Owens] "The facility you work for turns individuals loose on $150,000 machines with no training? Fascinating. I hope their insurance is paid up."

No you know what it feels like to be a rental house. Have fun storming the castle!


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Joseph Owens
Re: 4:4:4 HDSR INTO FCP via AJA KONA Issues
on Aug 12, 2010 at 5:27:34 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "undulate"

the word is "ululate" and its that weird warbling noise that fanatics make as they are dispatching infidels and apostates. And anybody else that misbehaves.

jPo

You mean "Old Ben"? Ben Kenobi?


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: 4:4:4 HDSR INTO FCP via AJA KONA Issues
on Aug 12, 2010 at 5:46:14 pm

[Joseph Owens] " its that weird warbling noise that fanatics make as they are dispatching infidels and apostates"

You mean like this?









Jeremy


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Keith Davies
Re: 4:4:4 HDSR INTO FCP via AJA KONA Issues
on Aug 12, 2010 at 10:47:45 pm

Thanks, I didn't barrel anything together and i didn't break anything.

That was a kind of shorthand response to the reply suggesting a LHi with 3G over a single cable, which is still confusing me a bit if 4.4.4 is by design a dual link technology. I presume via the multiplexor the data comes in via 2 and is reordered into a single stream?

I am fully aware of the cost of an HDSR. I have normally had to occasionally hook it up to the Kona 4.2.2. This had always in the night and the back of the deck backs into the TK suite so it's always a nightmare trying to get the 4.2.2. hooked up with remote via flying leads through two racks. As we had never run 4.4.4. before this job i really wasn't aware of how the signal is split. We don't have a Kona 3 or an LHi, we have a LHe. I can't do 4.4.4.

Thing is, I had been told that day that I could, and so was sure I was doing something wrong. I appologise if my comment has caused offence to the engineering world but that day I to digitise two other HD jobs on FCP, create ale files with keycode for 3 lab rolls, recreate a submaster of 3 lab rolls due to t/c issues on deliverables. Had a client attend with a paper edit from a film that i had to cut down and create a new HDCAM. Had meetings with two editors. and then there was the D5 transfer and I hadn't seen one of those since the days when Channel 4 had to be different. It was a busy day, and I have to use numerous systems, and 4.4.4 is new to me.

I am very thankful to all who have contributed, and how nice to be liken to Homer Simpson, so much better than Mo Flanders. I reckon there's a little of both of them in everyone.

I have had a quote from one company for the Kona3 and breakout. I don't understand the LHi option enough to suggest it. Raid is next.
The company I asked to quote suggested eSATA as an option but I read that Kona don't recommend this.

I work on film because I love the stuff, I did synch some of Hurt Locker, a few years back during production, really powerful, even uncut. It made me smile when I saw a clip I had synched on the news.

I started out working at The Mill in London, It was all High end commercial effects in the Henry & Harry days of Quantel. I was absoluely fascinated by what these guys colud do with pictures. I'd studied Fine Art so had been painting and this was like paint that never dried, so had no technical background at that time.

I did work in online at Molinaire for a number of years after this, we did a lot of promo stuff from neg and longform tv series, which was nice, but what drove me away was the awful digital content. Often some dude with a goatee, with two hours of utter garbage for MTV or some cheap channel. It was so nasty to look at, and always as deep as a puddle. Cut it to shreads to disguise the fact that this guy is plain empty. I got a call from the BBC once when dv reared it's ugly head and they wanted to shoot a documentary. When I enquired about runtime of the rushes I was quoted 100 hours. It was for a 50 minute programme. That is just retarded. who would want to touch that one? That's another reason I like film. You can't afford to be that lame. And of course there is the silver & the chemicals which everyone knows is another way of describing magic... 'It takes a lot to laugh, it takes a train to cry'.... Thanks again. Keith


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: 4:4:4 HDSR INTO FCP via AJA KONA Issues
on Aug 13, 2010 at 3:55:26 pm

[Keith Davies] "That was a kind of shorthand response to the reply suggesting a LHi with 3G over a single cable, which is still confusing me a bit if 4.4.4 is by design a dual link technology."

At first, it was. In laymen's terms, the components are split. It's all about data rate and the physical SDI circuitry and less about the physical cable. Dual link technology is 1.5 Gbps per cable, so together, that's 3Gbps. 3G technology, is 3Gbps over one cable. So 3G is essentially dual link data rate, multiplexed over one cable. The AJA product I linked to takes the 1.5 and 1.5 of dual link and multiplexes to one 3G connection. If you have a 3G capable capture card (like the LHi, but not the Kona3), then you can capture dual link over one cable. Hope that mkaes more sense.

[Keith Davies] "I appologise if my comment has caused offence to the engineering world...and how nice to be liken to Homer Simpson, so much better than Mo Flanders."

I was just kidding around with the Homer clips and messing with jPo. I wasn't liking that image to you at all. Sorry if you took offense, but it was not directed at you, but more directed at humor in general. :)

I don't try to come down on people who know what they don't know. It's a silly way to go through life, and educators would then be out of business. If it comes to a point where I know everything there is to know about this business, I am sure that will be the day I quit as I will be done learning.

[Keith Davies] "I don't understand the LHi option enough to suggest it. "

You'd need the LHi and the converter (dual ink 1.5 to 3G) to use the LHi. This way you could route one cable instead of two through the facility. The Kona 3 has other strengths though, in the Red and 2k department. Not sure if your'e working with any red and or 2k footage footage. If you are, stick with the K3.

Keep up the good work.

Jeremy


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