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444 RGB in FCP for output to SR

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Uli Kunkel
444 RGB in FCP for output to SR
on Jun 10, 2010 at 2:41:10 pm

Gary,

The documentation in FCP 7's manual on 10 bit RGB processing is vague and non-specific from what I can tell. Everything you've said looks to be true, but I'm still looking for verification on a couple of things. I can't seem to get a straight answer from AJA, and you know what it's like trying to reach Apple.

- If an FCP Timeline set up for ProRes 444 is set to "Always Render RGB," will I still be outputting 10 bit RGB color through my Kona card onto SR?

- Will simple dissolves render to 10 bit RGB in the timeline, or will they only be 8 bit?

Somewhat unrelated question...

- I am rendering Red footage from Color to ProRes 4444 for a Davinci 2K color correction off of SR tape. If my FCP timeline is relinked to the Red _H Proxies and sent to Color, will Color be accessing the same color space (12 bit RGB) as it would if I had used the "Native" workflow from the Red FCP whitepaper?

Thanks for your advice.

Uli


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Arnie Schlissel
Re: 444 RGB in FCP for output to SR
on Jun 10, 2010 at 3:41:52 pm

As per Apple:
"Apple ProRes 4444: The new Apple ProRes 4444 codec preserves motion image
sequences originating in either 4:4:4 RGB or 4:4:4 Y’CBCR color spaces. At its remarkably
low data rate as compared to uncompressed 4:4:4 HD, Apple ProRes 4444 supports
12-bit pixel depth with an optional, mathematically lossless alpha channel for true
4:4:4:4 support. Apple ProRes 4444 preserves visual quality at the same high level as
does Apple ProRes 422 (HQ), but for 4:4:4 image sources, which can carry the highest
possible color detail."


Arnie

Post production is not an afterthought!
http://www.arniepix.com/


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Uli Kunkel
Re: 444 RGB in FCP for output to SR
on Jun 10, 2010 at 4:09:29 pm

Thank you. I have read that, but my concern isn't with ProRes. I know what the codec is capable of. My concern is with Final Cut Pro. Documentation on the way it handles 10-bit RGB 444 color is vague. As of right now, the most consistent answer I've gotten from different sources is that a ProRes 4444 10 bit RGB timeline will play back to SR just fine, but that if there are any transitions like dissolves, they will only render as 8-bit. I am trying to get official confirmation on that point.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: 444 RGB in FCP for output to SR
on Jun 10, 2010 at 4:46:55 pm

It'd be real 'easy' to test. It is my understanding that FCP only renders in 8bit RGB.

Jeremy


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Uli Kunkel
Re: 444 RGB in FCP for output to SR
on Jun 10, 2010 at 4:55:44 pm

How could you test if a render file is 8 bit or 10 bit?


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: 444 RGB in FCP for output to SR
on Jun 10, 2010 at 4:57:17 pm

Make a couple of different color gradients, then add a dissolve and lay that off. If the dissolve bands real bad, then it's 8 bit rendering.


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gary adcock
Re: 444 RGB in FCP for output to SR
on Jun 10, 2010 at 8:48:05 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] " It is my understanding that FCP only renders in 8bit RGB. "

that would be the RTX engine, which because of speed always renders in 8bit - just like Avid does.

Working in FCP's "Safe" mode does not force the same restrictions on bit depth with renders that the RT Extreme engine does with your files.When you have processing set to float or "high precision YUV" it should maintain the quality you desire.

gary adcock
Studio37

Post and Production Workflow Consultant
Production and Post Stereographer
Technology Development
Quality Assurance Assistance

Chicago, IL

http://blogs.creativecow.net/24640



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: 444 RGB in FCP for output to SR
on Jun 10, 2010 at 8:48:54 pm

[gary adcock] "Working in FCP's "Safe" mode does not force the same restrictions on bit depth with renders that the RT Extreme engine does with your files."

Huh. That's a new one.

Thanks for that.

Jeremy


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gary adcock
Re: 444 RGB in FCP for output to SR
on Jun 10, 2010 at 9:14:58 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Huh. That's a new one. "

yeah, we have all been fighting that one for awhile, would have been nice if they had told us that when ProRes was released.

It was someone at Adobe that turned me on to searching down that path.

gary adcock
Studio37

Post and Production Workflow Consultant
Production and Post Stereographer
Technology Development
Quality Assurance Assistance

Chicago, IL

http://blogs.creativecow.net/24640



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Uli Kunkel
Re: 444 RGB in FCP for output to SR
on Jun 10, 2010 at 8:51:12 pm

But if my timeline render setting is on "High Precision YUV" won't it render dissolves and other transitions in a YUV color space rather than the RGB color space of the ProRes clips in the timeline?


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gary adcock
Re: 444 RGB in FCP for output to SR
on Jun 10, 2010 at 9:12:33 pm

[Uli Kunkel] "But if my timeline render setting is on "High Precision YUV" won't it render dissolves and other transitions in a YUV color space rather than the RGB color space of the ProRes clips in the timeline?"

Sorry Uli,

My mistake, I had to go back to the original post see that you were working in RGB - in an RGB timeline the processing message should actually say float, but I am not on my machine to confirm that

I do know that the YUV render option is greyed out when working in a RGB timeline.



gary adcock
Studio37

Post and Production Workflow Consultant
Production and Post Stereographer
Technology Development
Quality Assurance Assistance

Chicago, IL

http://blogs.creativecow.net/24640



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Uli Kunkel
Re: 444 RGB in FCP for output to SR
on Jun 10, 2010 at 9:15:21 pm

Gary,

That's interesting that YUV is greyed out. That would lead me to conclude that FCP will actually render transitions at 10 bit RGB. I'll do some tests with this and re-post.

Best,

Uli


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Uli Kunkel
Re: 444 RGB in FCP for output to SR
on Jun 10, 2010 at 9:17:45 pm

[gary adcock] "Working in FCP's "Safe" mode does not force the same restrictions on bit depth with renders that the RT Extreme engine does with your files.When you have processing set to float or "high precision YUV" it should maintain the quality you desire. "

So in an RGB timeline, should my realtime setting be set to "Safe" or "Unlimited RT?"


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gary adcock
Re: 444 RGB in FCP for output to SR
on Jun 10, 2010 at 9:30:56 pm

[Uli Kunkel] "So in an RGB timeline, should my realtime setting be set to "Safe" or "Unlimited RT?""

again-
All FCP renders done under the RT Extreme engine are done in 8bit and the overwhelming majority are processed as YUV. Using the "SAFE MODE" is the only way to force correct rendering in FCP.


I would be surprised if RT would be even available in a properly configured RGB timeline. It is not available when capturing to the AJA RGB and RGB Log versions by default.





gary adcock
Studio37

Post and Production Workflow Consultant
Production and Post Stereographer
Technology Development
Quality Assurance Assistance

Chicago, IL

http://blogs.creativecow.net/24640



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