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Paul Harb
Sync all over the place
on Mar 22, 2010 at 4:20:23 pm

Forgive me as this is my first RED project, so I am still learning this workflow.

I shot a music video on RED at 4k/ 23.98, and transcoded those R3D files to Apple Pro Res 422HQ 23.98 1080x1920 to edit. For some reason I am having all sorts of sync issues. Its out of sync, I stop it....its back in sync...then goes out again....nothing consistent either...its totally random which is maddening. Its in sync on my output monitor, but out of sync in my timeline, or vice versa....all over the place....Am I doing something wrong here? Anyone else have this issue, Im sure its something Im not doing but I cant figure it out. THks.

Paul

Mac Pro 2x 3.2 Quad
8Gig RAM
OSX 10.5.8
FCP 7.0.1
QT 7.6.4
Digital Maxx E-Sata RAID


Paul Harb-Producer/Director
Wrong Beach Multimedia
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Paul Harb
Nobody?
on Mar 22, 2010 at 9:44:17 pm

Hoping someone else could chime in here, Ive been reading that others have had this issue as well, but those were dated back in 08 soooo....not really current info that I can find. I did notice that my timeline settings were set to 24bit I think, I changed that to 16bit as the track is an AIFF not camera audio. Its a music video.


Paul

Paul Harb-Producer/Director
Wrong Beach Multimedia
Dual 3.2 GHz Quad/10.5.5/8GIG RAM/FCP 6.0.4/QT 7.5.5



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gary adcock
Re: Nobody?
on Mar 22, 2010 at 11:25:48 pm

[Paul Harb] "Hoping someone else could chime in here, "


I did not respond because there is so much info missing to answer your question.


There is NO mention what kind of audio you are using and where did it come from?

what is your workflow, from camera into FCP
If you did, which app did you transcode with and which OS version is the camera on?



gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows for the Digitally Inclined
Chicago, IL

http://blogs.creativecow.net/24640



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Paul Harb
Re: Nobody?
on Mar 23, 2010 at 12:12:18 am

Sorry, I thought I did. The audio is a track NOT from camera, it is an AIFF that is 48k 16bit audio. This is a music video. We shot the RED cams at 4k 23.98...the track was used as playback. I used REDRUSHES to transcode the R3D files to ProRes 422 HQ 23.98 1080x1920.

Now, this is a random thing. Sometimes its out, Ill stop it play again and then it will go back in sync at the same spot that was just out....so Im not sure how it could be some drift due to frame rate/ audio sample rate even though thats the only thing I can think of unless its something with the Kona..I dont know.

THks,

Paul

Paul Harb-Producer/Director
Wrong Beach Multimedia
Dual 3.2 GHz Quad/10.5.5/8GIG RAM/FCP 6.0.4/QT 7.5.5



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gary adcock
Re: Nobody?
on Mar 23, 2010 at 12:14:28 pm

[Paul Harb] " I thought I did. The audio is a track NOT from camera, it is an AIFF that is 48k 16bit audio. "

Have you bothered to check to see that FCP wants 48K 24bit audio and that might have something to do with your problem?

that along with any gaps or empty spaces in your timeline can cause the audio drift you describe-

it's a settings problem so try rendering a "mix down" for your audio, that will fix it until you edit the timeline.


gary adcock
Studio37
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Post and Production Workflows for the Digitally Inclined
Chicago, IL

http://blogs.creativecow.net/24640



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Paul Harb
Re: Nobody?
on Mar 23, 2010 at 4:28:24 pm

HEy Gary,

Whats with all the hostility???? The timeline WAS originally set to 24bit 48k and it was drifting all over the place. Why would gaps in the timeline create a drift randomly that is there one minute and then if I play the same spot again its in sync? I will trying mixing down my the AIFF file to 24bit as you say and see if that makes a difference. This is a new workflow for me, so you might cut me a little slack...or not.

Paul

Paul Harb-Producer/Director
Wrong Beach Multimedia
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gary adcock
Re: Nobody?
on Mar 23, 2010 at 5:11:33 pm

[Paul Harb] "Whats with all the hostility????"

the hostility started with the "Nobody" response to your own request.

"This is a new workflow for me, so you might cut me a little slack...or not. "

The needs for FCP do not change because you choose to not follow them. FCP always wants 48k 24bit audio regardless of where the audio ( and or video) came from.


the Mixdown I was talking about is a render inside of FCP.

you are working with audio that is not in spec for real time playback. That means that it needs rendering to playout, gaps in the timeline mean that the render jumps to the next clip to begin rendering whether you have video or not. so the blank areas of your timeline are exacerbating the issue of your audio not being correct.







gary adcock
Studio37
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Paul Harb
Re: Nobody?
on Mar 23, 2010 at 6:14:02 pm

So your mad that I asked if anyone has run into something similar? Maybe you need to take a deep breathe.

I have always used 48k 16bit audio....not sure Ive ever used 24bit audio....your telling me you always use 24bit audio on your video projects? I have not.

Paul



Paul Harb-Producer/Director
Wrong Beach Multimedia
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walter biscardi
Re: Nobody?
on Mar 23, 2010 at 6:18:04 pm

[Paul Harb] "
I have always used 48k 16bit audio....not sure Ive ever used 24bit audio....your telling me you always use 24bit audio on your video projects? I have not."


FCP defaults to 24bit audio. This is what you should be using at all times, as Gary says. In order to run 16bit audio you have to manually change the FCP default.

Digital audio is 24bit. If you're running 16bit audio, you can run into the very issues you have described and which Gary has already addressed in his answers.

Look at any Sequence Preset in FCP. They're all 24 bit audio for a reason.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
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Mark Spano
Re: Nobody?
on Mar 23, 2010 at 4:40:53 pm

Sounds similar to a problem I had a long time ago with a KONA 3 card. It would start playing with video and audio in sync and slowly drift out. Turned out that the card was not in the correct slot in the Mac Pro. Figure out which cards you have and what slots they belong in - AJA has a primer on their site to tell you where the KONA belongs. It might be in a lower performing slot than necessary and therefore unable to handle the throughput of an HQ sequence.



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Paul Harb
Re: Nobody?
on Mar 23, 2010 at 6:15:39 pm

Hey Mark,

This to me makes more sense than Gary's 24bit statement. He is saying that my setting are screwed up and I should be using 24bit audio? Im not sure I understand this. Like I said the sync issue is random and fixes itself when I stop and replay the same section, I will call AJA and see if they can help me, thks for the response.

Paul

Paul Harb-Producer/Director
Wrong Beach Multimedia
Dual 3.2 GHz Quad/10.5.5/8GIG RAM/FCP 6.0.4/QT 7.5.5



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Mark Spano
Re: Nobody?
on Mar 24, 2010 at 3:03:58 pm

[Gary] "FCP always wants 48k 24bit audio regardless of where the audio ( and or video) came from."

A note of clarification: FCP can handle 32kHz, 44.1kHz, 48kHz, 88.2kHz, 96kHz audio at 8, 16, or 24 bits - both as imported files and as sequence settings. The sequence setting should, however, be largely dependent on the output hardware - most third-party cards like KONA support 48kHz ONLY at either 16-bit or 24-bit (which is probably what your stance is referring to). You can choose this in the Audio MIDI Setup utility if you want to configure KONA for 16-bit I/O.

When using audio in an FCP sequence, FCP can render it to whatever the sequence setting is, but does an audibly less good job than Compressor or DAWs like Pro Tools. But you can absolutely use any of the above combinations of bit rate and sample rate source files in FCP. In Paul's case, 16-bit/48kHz audio rendered to a sequence setting of 24-bit/48kHz would not noticeably affect the sonics, as all FCP would be doing is adding bits at the bottom of the signal.

There's a lot to be said about how FCP handles audio in the FCP manual. This section copied below might enlighten:

Choosing Audio File Sample Rate and Bit Depth
Final Cut Pro can import audio with any bit depth and sample rate supported by QuickTime and Mac OS X Core Audio. Final Cut Pro performs real-time bit depth conversion and sample rate conversion when your audio file settings don’t match your sequence settings. However, less processor power is required when your audio file settings and sequence settings match.

Choosing Sequence Bit Depth
The bit depth setting in the Sequence Settings window determines the bit depth whenever you output or export your sequence. However, sequence audio is always mixed using 32-bit floating-point values.






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gary adcock
Re: Nobody?
on Mar 24, 2010 at 3:57:45 pm

[Mark Spano] "A note of clarification: FCP can handle 32kHz, 44.1kHz, 48kHz, 88.2kHz, 96kHz audio at 8, 16, or 24 bits - both as imported files and as sequence settings."


FCP claims it can handle HDV, AVC Intra and R3D files, but they will not play at all if the timeline settings are not correct. That is the problem here, a settings mismatch that is only affecting the audio

What FCP can do and what it does are often 2 different things.

I got $20 USD that Mixing Audio bit rates is the cause.

gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows for the Digitally Inclined
Chicago, IL

http://blogs.creativecow.net/24640



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Sam Tollitt
Re: Nobody?
on Mar 24, 2010 at 3:15:06 pm

the sync issue is one thing but...

I am also a bit confused re 24 bit audio.... I was approached about an audio issue the other day and I recommended that it be 16bit 48Khz for best compatibility with FCP, are you saying this is incorrect?

I have just loaded a ton of sequence presets in fcp 7 as I was a bit worried & they all read 16bit 48Khz as expected, if it is the case that I am wrong could somebody please explain why?

back to the point > I have also experienced the sync issue on a vast number of systems, it has been boiled the problem appearing to be something to do with FCP 7 & kona cards.

multiple drivers have been tryed and konas have been swapped out in place for BM cards.

anyone experiencing the same problems? I'm sure there is as it does appear to be a solid issue which we cannot rid of!


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gary adcock
Re: Nobody?
on Mar 24, 2010 at 3:52:09 pm

[Sam Tollitt] "I have just loaded a ton of sequence presets in fcp 7 as I was a bit worried & they all read 16bit 48Khz as expected, if it is the case that I am wrong could somebody please explain why? "


Ok this issue has been in FCP since it was KeyGrip, it is a rendering mismatch.

While FCP can and does read mixed frame and audio rates there is a catch- the master audio and your timeline settings need to match bit depth.

If you digitize into FCP using hardware all of the defaults go with 24bit audio.
If you use the default easy setup presets for ProRes it wants to SEE 24bit audio.

If you load something else in that timeline, like files with 16bit audio, the RT extreme engine keeps on rendering that audio content whether there is content in the timeline or not - because you chose a 24bit audio setting in the preset and you are using 16bit audio that was converted from something else.

So every time you hit a gap the renderer jumps ahead to the next clip to render, even though you are not to that point in the timeline yet.

if you Mixdown your audio or if you set the SAFE RT you should not be seeing these issues.

Try rendering out the file completely to a self contained QT with a Audio Mixdown- this should all go away.

gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows for the Digitally Inclined
Chicago, IL

http://blogs.creativecow.net/24640



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Paul Harb
Re: Nobody?
on Mar 24, 2010 at 5:33:26 pm

Hi Gary,

So I did what you said and exported the audio file at 24bit 48k and brought it back in.....still out of sync AND if I lay that MASTER audio down that I will be cutting to, with my camera scratch track it drifts, also I tried turning off all RT to safe and changed my timelinesettings to 24bit 48k.... it didnt fix it. Here is something that has been brought to my attention today. The audio playback that was used for the band to lip sync to was a 44.1k file 16bit. We ran that camera at 23.98fps. Is there no way that this is the issue? And just to be clear I do appreciate your help.

Paul Harb

Paul Harb-Producer/Director
Wrong Beach Multimedia
Dual 3.2 GHz Quad/10.5.5/8GIG RAM/FCP 6.0.4/QT 7.5.5



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gary adcock
Re: Nobody?
on Mar 24, 2010 at 6:41:41 pm

[Paul Harb] "So I did what you said and exported the audio file at 24bit 48k and brought it back in"

I have never said you needed export your audio timeline as 24bit.

"still out of sync AND if I lay that MASTER audio down that I will be cutting to,"
if it was out of sync when you exported it will still be out of sync, changing to 24 bit will not fix that.

NOTE that FCP / Media Mangler / Compressor all do really lousy Audio Conversions -- do this in STP or better yet Protools to have this handled properly.


You need to fix the issue in the timeline FIRST before trying an export. -did you try an audio mixdown inside of FCP?

Does your ALL of your audio match the timeline settings? that would mean EVERY piece of Music, VO's, SOT and Foley audio.

Where did you get the audio and how was it converted to Aiff?



gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows for the Digitally Inclined
Chicago, IL

http://blogs.creativecow.net/24640



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Paul Harb
Re: Nobody?
on Mar 24, 2010 at 8:25:07 pm

To be clear again.....there is no different sources of audio, it is a music video......I have scratch tracks on the camera from a playback AIFF file that was played on set for the band to lip sync to. I am cutting the picture to the same audio AIFF track that was played on set. A mixdown will not help as there is ONE source of audio in my timeline, the master AIFF that was played on set and that is also heard as a scratch track by the cameras. That said I tried a mixdown and it didnt fix it.

If i lay down the scratch camera audio on the timeline and sync it with the AIFF master that was played to the band and heard in the camera scratch track, it drifts slowly throughout the song and by the end is out of sync.

Paul



Paul Harb-Producer/Director
Wrong Beach Multimedia
Dual 3.2 GHz Quad/10.5.5/8GIG RAM/FCP 6.0.4/QT 7.5.5



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gary adcock
Re: Nobody?
on Mar 24, 2010 at 6:44:08 pm

[Paul Harb] "Here is something that has been brought to my attention today. The audio playback that was used for the band to lip sync to was a 44.1k file 16bit. We ran that camera at 23.98fps. Is there no way that this is the issue?"

Nope that should not be an issue, that is standard CD quality.

and Stop thinking that changing the timeline will do anything for this issue.

MIXDOWN THE AUDIO within FCP- if that does not show promise- then something else is screwed up.


gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows for the Digitally Inclined
Chicago, IL

http://blogs.creativecow.net/24640



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Paul Harb
Re: Nobody?
on Mar 24, 2010 at 8:27:18 pm

There is nothing to mixdown, it is ONE source of audio....that said I did a mixdown and it did not fix the issue. It is something else. The telling sign to me is that if I lay down the scratch audio track from camera with the AIFF master track that Im cutting to and that is being heard in the camera scratch track it should stay in sync throughout however it drifts....isnt this a pulldown thing?

Paul

Paul Harb-Producer/Director
Wrong Beach Multimedia
Dual 3.2 GHz Quad/10.5.5/8GIG RAM/FCP 6.0.4/QT 7.5.5



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Mark Spano
Re: Nobody?
on Mar 24, 2010 at 8:33:17 pm

[Paul Harb] "isnt this a pulldown thing?"

Can you check the RED files again? Was that actually shot at 23.976 or maybe it was shot at 24fps?

I don't think it's a pulldown issue though because you said this:

[Paul Harb] "Its out of sync, I stop it....its back in sync...then goes out again...."

which led me to my initial comparison to the slot/bandwidth issue on the card. Try this: set your external video to OFF. Play your sequence. Does it still drift? If so, it's NOT the card. If not, then it's the card.



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Paul Harb
Re: Nobody?
on Mar 24, 2010 at 8:54:31 pm

Im not sure to see the frame rate on a R3D file? But when I look at the QT that it creates with the RED files, they are 23.98...not 23.976 or 24fps. I did move the card to another slot yesterday, I cant really tell yet honestly if the sync is random anymore. It doesnt seem to be, now it seems to be a constant drift between my master audio, which was also used as playback and is whats being heard on my camera scratch audio and was a 44.1k 16bit file. The camera was being run at 23.98 fps. when I line these up in the timeline,, there is a drift....and it seems constant now. I swear its driving me nuts cause it was a moving target but now maybe moving the card solved one issue but I was actually dealing with two issues.

Paul

Paul Harb-Producer/Director
Wrong Beach Multimedia
Dual 3.2 GHz Quad/10.5.5/8GIG RAM/FCP 6.0.4/QT 7.5.5



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Mark Spano
Re: Nobody?
on Mar 25, 2010 at 5:12:17 am

[Paul Harb] "Im not sure to see the frame rate on a R3D file?"

Wait - didn't you say you transcoded the R3D files to ProRes? What did you use to do that? RedCine-X would probably show you the metadata of the R3D files and you could see the shot frame rate. Also - what device played back your music on set? This whole thing could point to that device playing back at the wrong speed.

Other than those things (and what we've already discussed in this thread), I can't think of what would cause the drift. You might have to start at the beginning. Try stuff like doing it on another machine (if you have one) - transcode a clip, slide your audio in sync and see what happens. Uninstall/reinstall KONA drivers. Trash prefs for FCP. Log in as another administrator level user. I don't know - gotta start somewhere. Sorry it's not easily apparent, but that's sometimes how it is with problems like this. Good luck.



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Paul Harb
Re: Nobody?
on Mar 25, 2010 at 5:42:03 pm

Hey Mark,

We figured it out.....I was getting wrong information....my playback guy did play a 48k 24bit file on set, which is what the camera recorded as scratch. They sent me the file they used and it all syncs up. I did try exporting the file myself and transcoding to 48k but that didnt fix it. But good news is its better now :)

Thks again for all your help! Coming on here and exhausting everything we could come up with made me really go back to the playback guy and thats when it all came together. thks again.


Paul

Paul Harb-Producer/Director
Wrong Beach Multimedia
Dual 3.2 GHz Quad/10.5.5/8GIG RAM/FCP 6.0.4/QT 7.5.5



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Ken Glaza
Re: Sync all over the place
on Mar 31, 2010 at 5:30:58 pm

I am not sure about what RED is but I have had problems like that when the audio files were separated from the corresponding video files in some programs. They could read at different timings. See if the audio is interlaced or not. Just a guess.


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gary adcock
Re: Sync all over the place
on Mar 31, 2010 at 11:19:23 pm

[Ken Glaza] "See if the audio is interlaced or not. Just a guess."

What is interlaced audio?

gary adcock
Studio37
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Post and Production Workflows for the Digitally Inclined
Chicago, IL

http://blogs.creativecow.net/24640



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Ken Glaza
Re: Sync all over the place
on Apr 1, 2010 at 10:35:05 am

Interlaced means that the audio is broken into pieces and put with each frame of picture. Some softwares separate them into two files. Pictures only and sound only. The only common point is that they both start at the same time. Kinda like the way film and sound start at the movie set. The slate is the only sync point in common (click visual with click in sound to match the frame at the beginning) Then the sproket holes keep them together in time as long as they turn at the same rate. Look at where you store your intermediate workfiles. If they are separated then you may be having an issue with the sample rates of the audio. Your video frame rates may match but,the audio recorded time values (sample and bit depth)may not match the playback values so that it is reading audio at different rates then when first recorded or sampled. Kinda like you got extra or are missing sprocket holes in the audio. Check for drop frame option too. I still don't know what you are using as software and hardware. Call me for a free consultation 2485578276EST I do forensic audio and video and this is interesting to me for archival reasons.


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gary adcock
Re: Sync all over the place
on Apr 1, 2010 at 2:36:29 pm

"Interlaced means that the audio is broken into pieces and put with each frame of picture"

I believe that to be an inaccurate use of the term and technically incorrect.

Audio is not stored at the frame level in any video formats that I know of that exists in either the video world or the courtroom. (I do forensic and evidentiary work on a regular basis)

" Some softwares separate them into two files. Pictures only and sound only."
Actually you have that backwards- it is reversed - some software actually marries the 2 file types together during capture.
Audio is a separate entity than video or film, does not technically carry time code, does not have or support "frames" and can exist separate from each other. But the history lesson was good for some.

"the audio recorded time values (sample and bit depth)may not match the playback values so that it is reading audio at different rates then when first recorded or sampled."

This can also happen as in this case that the audio compression internal to the recording is at a different sample rate than the editing software was expecting/ demanding. This is a very common mistake for many users when attempting new workflows.

"Check for drop frame option too."
there is no such thing as drop frame audio- it does not exist.

[Ken Glaza] "Call me for a free consultationI do forensic audio and video"

No thank you.

gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows for the Digitally Inclined
Chicago, IL

http://blogs.creativecow.net/24640



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Ken Glaza
Re: Sync all over the place
on Apr 2, 2010 at 12:40:14 am

I really didn’t want to get into this level of complexities. There is no room to teach here. I like a brisk conversation but can we dispense with the slams Mr. Moderator?

Audio- A single file example!
“MP3 files are segmented into zillions of frames, each containing a fraction of a second's worth of audio data, ready to be reconstructed by the decoder.” Left and right audio are interlaced (“to unite, interwoven, interlocked, intermixture”; Websters’ Third c1966); according to the codec to create a single file. Look at this simple example.

http://www.mp3-converter.com/mp3codec/mp3_anatomy.htm

Video and Audio in one file!
A bit more complex because they are described as being a container type of file used to provide a single file of audio and video to the user.
“A container or wrapper format is a meta-file format whose specification describes how data and meta-data are stored (not coded). By definition, a container format could wrap any kind of data. Most container formats are specialized for the specific requirements of the data. For example, a popular family of containers is found among multimedia file formats. Since audio and video streams can be coded and decoded with many different algorithms, a container format can be used to provide a single file to the user.”
http://www.answers.com/topic/container-format-digital
I have provided a link so that you can see a graphic of the single file structure that a popular type of AV file is made of.
http://graphcomp.com/info/specs/ms/editmpeg.htm
In this container format, it is almost always with out exception that audio is interwoven with picture as the single file is created. Some do it similar to the MP3 frame by frame method and others use big groups of pictures (GOP) with different compression schemes. Some codecs break the sound into a frame by frame timed piece so that editing would be the easiest. But it is up to the secret sometimes pricy codecs used to encode and decode the interwoven audio with video files.
Once again maybe the encoder or decoder is missing “Container” and Coding information and the settings need to be looked at. Or if they are separate audio and video files it might be the choice of a few settings that are not matched as well. I am suggesting the checking of drop v non drop frame for the video compatibility, sample rates, even bit depth, audio and video and who knows what else may be an option. Granted I could have said that "Some softwares keep audio and video in separate files". Nothing lost or gained here, nothing reversed.
Truly Your Forensic Expert Ken Glaza


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gary adcock
Re: Sync all over the place
on Apr 2, 2010 at 1:25:55 pm

[Ken Glaza] " I like a brisk conversation but can we dispense with the slams Mr. Moderator? "

I did not slam anything but your statements, which still I believe to be inaccurate here in a Manufacturers forum on professional video hardware editing tools and the formats used therein.

They have little to do with the issue the original user was referring to and have now become a obtuse discussion without regard to solving someone's editing problems with a specific piece of hardware.

There is no way I know of to incorporate audio into a SINGLE frame of video, be it 1/24 of a second or 1/60 of a second, as then it would no longer be a frame.-

Now a muxed (multiplexed) signal can be have a length of a single frame and incorporate video and audio, but then it would no longer be a 'Frame' in the video since.

The term "Interlaced" in this space is more commonly used regarding the alternate line by line playout of Video based on the decay of phosphors when the specifications for Color TV were established for by the National Television Standards Committee in 1953.
I can find no mention of anything such as interlacing of audio in the current NTSC specs, nor any I can find any listing whatsoever in either the EBU or the SMPTE standards manuals, the 2 organizations that govern video and audio transmission for broadcast.




gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows for the Digitally Inclined
Chicago, IL

http://blogs.creativecow.net/24640



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