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Ray Tragesser
59.94 Question
on Jul 28, 2009 at 5:35:12 pm

Hello Gang,

A director recently shot in a Sony EX-3 camera 720/60p. He was going for a filmic 24p look that was overcranked. He brought the footage to me and after some tests, we started to run into some problems.
I am on a PC using Adobe Premiere Pro CS-3. The files are .mp4 files which import natively in Premiere. The clips imported as 59.94 as reported by the info panel. I drop them on the timeline and they play as expected. The issue is they look like video and not like film.

In Premiere Pro CS-3 I have three choices for project format:
720p / 59.94
720p / 29.97
720p/ 23.976

In each of these projects, I can "interpret footage" to play back at a different frame rate. For example, If I am in a 720p /59.94 project I can interpret the clip to play back at 29.97 so it plays half speed. The motion looks great, nice and smooth. But it looks like a ESPN video replay, versus a NFL films highlight. I have talked to all sorts of people and have all sorts of answers. Two main ideas keep coming up
1) The camera was in the wrong mode. It should have been in the 720p 23.976 mode, overcranked to 60fps not in the 720/60p mode (59.94)
2) All the final cut guys say its an easy conversion with Compressor to go from 59.94 to 23.976

Since this is 59.94 progressive, every frame is unique, I do not see or detect any pulldown. So I need to get some closure from a Final Cut expert. Another variable is that watching on a CRT monitor really shows the Hyper Video feel, on a LCD panel, you certainly get a little help from the progressive display.

Can you offer any advice on this topic?

Thanks in advance,


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walter biscardi
Re: 59.94 Question
on Jul 28, 2009 at 7:02:35 pm

[Ray Tragesser] "The issue is they look like video and not like film. "

That's correct. 59.94 will look like live video and not a film look.

If he wanted that 24p look, he needed to shoot 24.

People shoot 59.94 for 24 when they want to achieve smooth slo mo in 24. When you bring the 59.94 material in at 24 you get beautiful slo-mo, but you won't get that filmic 24p look in real speed.





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Ray Tragesser
Re: 59.94 Question
on Jul 28, 2009 at 7:05:53 pm

So in your opinion, the camera mode was to blame for the non-filmic look? He shot in 720/60p and should have shot 720 23.976 overcranked to 60 frames per second?

Is there any Final Cut / Compressor mojo that can correct this?

Thanks very much
Ray T


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: 59.94 Question
on Jul 28, 2009 at 7:12:19 pm

What's the rest of your prject shot in? Are you editing in a 23.976 timeline?


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Ray Tragesser
Re: 59.94 Question
on Jul 28, 2009 at 7:39:07 pm

Everything was shot EX-3 720p 60p (59.94)

Premiere Pro - CS-3
When the footage is imported it is listed as 59.94. I can import this footage into a 59.94, 29.97 or 23.976 project and from there I can interpret the footage to play at any frame rate. But the footage never looks like 24p it looks like great video slo-mo.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: 59.94 Question
on Jul 28, 2009 at 7:47:26 pm

[Ray Tragesser] "But the footage never looks like 24p it looks like great video slo-mo."

If you play it back @ 24p, it should look 24p-ish. This is usually how all slomo works (especially film). You record at a higher frame rate (such as 60, or 120, or 10,000 fps) and then play it back @ 24 to make it slow.

If you wanted a more filmic look, he should have messed with the shutter speed (angle) to give you more or less motion blur.

Jeremy


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Ray Tragesser
Re: 59.94 Question
on Jul 28, 2009 at 7:52:04 pm

I agree....and have worked on many different projects with slo-mo. But in the case of these files from The Sony EX-3 it is not working that way. For the reasons I mentioned in the first post.

So..back to orginal question...was the Sony EX-3 in the wrong mode to accomplish a film look? 720 60p vs 720 23.976 overcranked to 60fps

Thanks


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: 59.94 Question
on Jul 28, 2009 at 7:59:13 pm

If you have a 720p60 file, you can confrom it through Cinema Tools to 23.98. All this does is basically rewrite the header so that the file plays back @ 23.98 and is a lossless process that take less than a second. If you can do this in premiere, then go for it, I just don't know enough about Premiere.

If he would have shot 720p24 over cranked to 60, this process would already be done. I am sure when he switched modes, the shutter angle or speed had changed too.

Jeremy


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Ray Tragesser
Re: 59.94 Question
on Jul 28, 2009 at 8:30:51 pm

I can change the playback frame rate for sure in Premiere, but what is not changing is the look. I can slo-mo the shots but there is a real difference between a ESPN video slo-mo look and a NFL Films / 24p look.

Is there any definitive answer to the shooting mode here? I am trying to find out if the camera mode made a difference or not. I suspect there is a difference between 720 60p and 720 23.976 Overcranked to 60fps

Ray T


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: 59.94 Question
on Jul 28, 2009 at 8:34:14 pm

[Ray Tragesser] "I suspect there is a difference between 720 60p and 720 23.976 Overcranked to 60"

I explained it a bit earlier. When he swtiched to 720p60, his shutter speed changed giving you less motion blur which looks like a more videoy motion. If he would have shot 720p60 over 24, his shutter speed probably would have remained the same, therefore giving you more motion blur.

You can achieve the same results both ways, it's all about the shutter angle.

Jeremy


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Chris Tompkins
Re: 59.94 Question
on Jul 29, 2009 at 2:52:47 pm

Is the goal to have the entire show play back slo-mo?
60p is what it was shot @.
You put it in a 24 timeline u get slowed footage.

You want real time film-like?
Shoot 24p
Then, to have a certain shot in slo-mo, you record it @ 59.94 and edit in your 24p project.

Chris Tompkins
Video Atlanta


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Ray Tragesser
Re: 59.94 Question
on Jul 29, 2009 at 3:18:54 pm

Thanks Everyone!

I think its time to close the book on this one.

Ray



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John Fishback
Re: 59.94 Question
on Aug 2, 2009 at 8:21:14 pm

Look for filmlook plugins. Boris Continuum (which works with Premiere) has one http://www.borisfx.com/units/film_look.php. I'm sure there are others.

John

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