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Flanders Scientific Monitor and Kona 3

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Bob Zelin
Flanders Scientific Monitor and Kona 3
on Jun 18, 2009 at 10:54:31 pm

Well, Walter Biscardi was right. I saw the Flanders Scientific 17" and 24" LCD monitor at an AJA Kona 3 client today. They had a LOT of standard def media, and they had an old Sony PVM-20M4U in the room, so we hooked it up, right next to the PVM CRT monitor. I was floored. The standard def image looks as good or better on the Flanders LCD monitor as it did on the old CRT monitor. And the off axis issues usually associated with LCD monitors is minimal (compared to Panasonic, etc.). For hi def, the image quality is stunning. This monitor is in the same league as Cinetal and TV Logic, for thousands less. It has full very very good quality waveform/vectorscope/audio meters as well.

I never heard of Flanders Scientific, other than Walter, and ads on Creative Cow. But I was truly impressed.

Bob Zelin




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Aaron Neitz
Re: Flanders Scientific Monitor and Kona 3
on Jun 18, 2009 at 11:28:10 pm

Coming from Walter and now Bob, that's impressive kudos!

Thanks for the 411 boys



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walter biscardi
Re: Flanders Scientific Monitor and Kona 3
on Jun 18, 2009 at 11:45:22 pm

[Bob Zelin] "I never heard of Flanders Scientific, other than Walter, and ads on Creative Cow. But I was truly impressed. "

Glad you finally got a chance to see them. I was wondering what you would think on a first hand analysis.

Yep, it's the SD replication that floors me, especially at 2:1 looking almost identical in quality to 1:1.



Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Biscardi Creative Media
HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions.

Read my Blog!

STOP STARING AND START GRADING WITH APPLE COLOR Apple Color Training DVD available now!


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Shane Ross
Re: Flanders Scientific Monitor and Kona 3
on Jun 19, 2009 at 5:21:13 pm

I was VERY impressed with the Flanders monitors and was very VERY reluctant to return it (after borrowing it for a week). And the fact that SD looked great on it was very surprising. I wish I could afford one, or the COMPANY could, but alas...they bought the WRONG monitor (Sony LMD) and we are stuck with it. And they won't rent it from me if I bought it.

I want one.



Shane



GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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walter biscardi
Re: Flanders Scientific Monitor and Kona 3
on Jun 19, 2009 at 5:27:39 pm

Their new video manual went live today. The thing has so many features, who wants to READ a manual? So they launched the video manual now.

http://www.flandersscientific.com/index/videomanual

Mighty darn handy!

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Biscardi Creative Media
HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions.

Read my Blog!

STOP STARING AND START GRADING WITH APPLE COLOR Apple Color Training DVD available now!


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Joseph Owens
Re: Flanders Scientific Monitor and Kona 3
on Jun 22, 2009 at 4:10:07 pm

Anything that has imbedded scopes makes me reluctant -- and punching graphics into what you're supposed to be grading makes me even more skeptical. Its the equivalent of dropping wasabi paste (or ketchup) onto your filet. Or maybe it just wasn't Alberta Grade A to start with.... ;-)

Glad to see that an LCD is at least perceptually starting to draw even with an old industrial-grade CRT.

Or is this "faint praise"?

I still can't see a reason to replace my e-Cinema.

jPo



This IS my blog!


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Bob Zelin
Re: Flanders Scientific Monitor and Kona 3
on Jun 24, 2009 at 1:43:40 am

the eCinema is a fine monitor. However, if you were one of the "old guys" that was still insisting that you could not work without a CRT (like a Sony BVM series), well, I would have to kill you.

Never tell me about the "good old days". I lived thru them - the entire linear period. All the hi end GVG and Tektronix equipment. The good old days were not that good. Today, things are cool.

If IVC Helical was better than Quad, and Quad was better than 1", and 1" was better than Beta, etc, etc, etc. we would still be using IVC Helical. And to that one guy that says "IVC Helical looks better than Sony SRW" - well, he needs to be killed as well.

bob Zelin




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walter biscardi
Re: Flanders Scientific Monitor and Kona 3
on Jun 24, 2009 at 2:27:10 am

[Joseph Owens] "Glad to see that an LCD is at least perceptually starting to draw even with an old industrial-grade CRT."

It's beyond "draw even" with CRT. It's full replacement for CRT.

If you don't want scopes on screen, don't turn them on. Pretty simple.



Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Biscardi Creative Media
HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions.

Read my Blog!

STOP STARING AND START GRADING WITH APPLE COLOR Apple Color Training DVD available now!


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Craig Sommerer
Re: Flanders Scientific Monitor and Kona 3
on Jun 24, 2009 at 8:43:44 pm

As a general observation to Bob's first comment, I would never put TV Logic and Cine-tal in the same sentence other than to compare polar opposites when it comes to the quality of the image.

I hate it when I have to agree with you, Walter, and this time I do agree with you, but not completely. The FSI monitors are good for the money but not as a complete and total CRT replacement.

I think for a CRT replacement, we'll have to shift our monitoring paradigm of what is good and what isn't, perhaps when I don't have too look through a monitor's ND screen to see decent gamma and black. Perhaps the paradigm of quality imaging in broadcast/cable tv has changed completely and in that rodeo quality doesn't matter anymore?

I recently saw the Sony PVM lcd monitors and quite honestly, much better than the FSI, but true to Sony form, these monitors come with big dollar signs and then if you actually want to use them, you have to shell out more big dollars for the input cards.

I recently had to work with 3 TV Logic monitors again, shading 7 Thomson LDK6000 Worldcams. The only lcd monitor WORSE on the market is a Sony LMD. I hate the TV Logic line of monitors.



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walter biscardi
Re: Flanders Scientific Monitor and Kona 3
on Jun 24, 2009 at 9:11:39 pm

[Craig Sommerer] "I hate it when I have to agree with you, Walter, and this time I do agree with you, but not completely. The FSI monitors are good for the money but not as a complete and total CRT replacement.
"


That's funny Craig. There's a lot of people who don't agree with me. That's why we all have opinions.

Since we all have to replace CRTs now anyway, for all intents and purposes, anything you purchase now will be a CRT replacement. It's the quality of the product you're buying and how good it stacks up to an old broadcast CRT that will be the standard for now. In a few years some folks won't even know what a CRT was.

So we have to judge the monitors as the best for the environment being used and how they are going to be used. We're doing almost 100% broadcast HD and independent feature Post work here in our three suites and needed very accurate color monitors for all our color enhancement work. In my opinion and spending my own money, FSI is the best monitor you can purchase for under $10,000 and it is the best LCD monitor I have personally used and tested.

Of course the main reason why I feel so comfortable recommending them to folks is the unconditional 30 day money back guarantee. So if they don't serve your needs for your particular situation, you're not out any money or hard feelings. Take the money and go purchase something else to truly suit your needs. That might be a CineTAL or other higher priced monitor, but at least you have the opportunity to test drive the FSI in your own viewing situation. That's a pretty cool concept and one I wish more manufacturers would consider.





Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Biscardi Creative Media
HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions.

Read my Blog!

STOP STARING AND START GRADING WITH APPLE COLOR Apple Color Training DVD available now!


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Bob Zelin
Re: Flanders Scientific Monitor and Kona 3
on Jun 30, 2009 at 12:19:39 pm

Craig writes -
I recently saw the Sony PVM lcd monitors and quite honestly, much better than the FSI, but true to Sony form, these monitors come with big dollar signs and then if you actually want to use them, you have to shell out more big dollars for the input cards.

I recently had to work with 3 TV Logic monitors again, shading 7 Thomson LDK6000 Worldcams. The only lcd monitor WORSE on the market is a Sony LMD. I hate the TV Logic line of monitors.


REPLY -
hi Craig. I want to bash you, but you seem to contradict your self in your above statements. First you say "I recently saw the Sony PVM LCD monitors and quite honestly, much better than the FSI". This is where I was going to tell you want an idiot you were. But then you say "the only lcd monitor WORSE on the market is a Sony LMD". So in one sentence you say the Sony's are great, but in the next, you berate the Sony LMD.

I am no monitor expert. I started my career with Conrac, then Barco, then Asaca/Shibasoku, then Ikegami, and for the bulk of it - Sony BVM and PVM CRT monitors. It is an outrage that the company that was the standard for me for the bulk of my career (Sony) makes the WORST PIECE OF @#$% LCD monitor. The entire LMD series is an embarassment to the Sony Broadcast division, and has allowed historically inferior companies like Panasonic and JVC to blow the doors off of them. If you feel that the Sony LMD series is a superior monitor (maybe you don't - your response is very confusing to me) - then I do not value your opinions here. The LMD series is widely considered a joke, and even the most novice user can see it's complete inability to handle signals properly - most well known is it's inablility to handle a SD-SDI signal. A post like this is appropriate for an AJA forum, because the local cable company called me in to complain about their new AJA Kona LHe card (last year), and the only problem was the LMD-2450. Their was a sony PVM-20M4U in the same room, and by simply looping the signal from the LMD into the PVM, the client instantly saw that the problem was the LMD monitor and not the AJA product.

So, you are welcome to your opinions of FSI, TV Logic, CineTal, eCinema and other fine hi end monitors (of what you like and don't like) and are certainly welcome to make comparisons to the wonderful, now antequted Sony BVM CRT series. But don't you dare compare any of these monitors to the Sony LMD line, because it shows your inability to make judgements about these products. (Perhaps I have misinterpreted what you said).

BobZelin




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Tom Meegan
Re: Flanders Scientific Monitor and Kona 3
on Jun 30, 2009 at 4:28:16 pm

Bob,

I think Craig was saying:

Sony LCDs branded LMD – truly awful.

FSI – good value for price, but not full CRT replacement.

Sony LCDs branded PVM – good, but much more expensive than FSI, and therefore an unfair comparison.

Craig works in environments (live broadcast television trucks, the 53' expando kind, not a SAT truck) where there are dozens of monitors in his work space, and he is responsible for color matching multiple cameras in real time.

His standards are different and generally higher for monitoring than most of us, as his work environment requires it.

Tom

Best,

Tom Meegan
Woven Pixels, LLC


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Bob Zelin
Re: Flanders Scientific Monitor and Kona 3
on Jun 30, 2009 at 6:43:11 pm

Hi Tom -
I am not in NY or LA anymore. With that said, I understand that places like Nice Shoes in NY (the # 1 transfer house) is doing color grading on Panasonic Plasmas. And with that said, I see cable shows being done here in Florida with the Pana BT-LH1700W as the "final color grading" monitor. I personally do not know one person that owns a CineTal or eCinema. And believe me, at $5000 for the Flanders 2450, it's still too rich for the blood of most of my clients.

Since the advent of the AVID Media Composer, I could not understand how anyone could get thru a session without a professional waveform monitor/vectorscope. Well, it's been a LONG TIME now, and there are countless shows that go out with the use of the horrible built in scopes that are these software programs (AVID, FCP, etc). And of course, the new Blackmagic Ultrascope may change this.

I drag all this crap into the conversation because I know exactly what SHOULD be happening. I know that "we" should be using the best equipment, and not make excuses with inferior equipment. But this is real life, and it's a MIRACLE for someone to have a TV Logic, CineTal, or eCinema monitor in todays economy. This includes full shows on TV. This ain't LA. And even if it was, it's still not the most predominant monitors.

bobZelin




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Tom Meegan
Re: Flanders Scientific Monitor and Kona 3
on Jun 30, 2009 at 7:29:37 pm

Hi Bob,

Point taken regarding the proliferation of LCD monitors and the use of inferior scopes, or no scopes at all.

That said, I like that Craig is beating the drum for quality, even if it is quality my business doesn't need to satisfy my clients.

In Craig's world, he really does need that quality to do his best work, and more and more often he is not getting it, as the owners of the mobile units he works on choose to compromise in this area.

I suspect he is not alone in this.

Best,

Tom Meegan
Woven Pixels, LLC


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Craig Sommerer
Re: Flanders Scientific Monitor and Kona 3
on Jul 1, 2009 at 2:23:47 am

Bob,

Please reread my post. The Sony PVM and LMD are 2 different lines of monitors. In one instance I made casual mention that at this year's NAB I saw the new PVM monitors and was quite pleased and surprised with the product considering the debacle of their LMD and BVM lcd products. The PVM is a superior product to the FSI monitors but it also has a much superior price point.

I mentioned the LMD only because I compared it to the TV Logic line of products, which you had put on par with a Cine-tal in your first post. It's my belief that the only line of critical monitoring worse than the TV Logic line is indeed the Sony LMD. This is what I said as I thought it was widely known that the LMD line was a horrible, cynical joke of a product. Perhaps I'm wrong?

Back to Flanders Scientific; I am cynical by nature, doubly so by a meaningless career spent in live tv so I read reviews and hold them at arms length until I can make my own decisions of a product. I saw the Flander's monitors at NAB and even with the pitiful viewing experience of their booth, I have to admit that I while I wasn't floored, I also wouldn't discount them. I said they are a good product for the price point and until such time comes around that I can work with one, hopefully this fall, that is all the endorsement I will offer.

My very poor opinions of the TV Logic and Sony LMD products mentioned in this thread do come from previous work experience. I should also mentioned that I have had great fortune to do some very minor work on a daVinci Resolve with Cine-tal monitoring: it ain't nothing to sneeze at all.



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Helmut Kobler
Another vote for the FSI
on Jul 7, 2009 at 5:24:22 am

Another vote here for FSI. I have a 2450 and love it. I originally considered the 2430 (the lower end 24"), but the panel's viewing angle was a little more narrow than I wanted. When I saw the 2430 next to the 2450, it settled the matter. The 2450's viewing angle is wide, the blacks deep, and the panel seems to show better details in the highlights than the 2430.

I've had mine for a couple of weeks now and love sitting in front of it. It's also been great to be able to talk directly to the company's ownership...




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Jason Boucher
Re: Another vote for the FSI
on Oct 10, 2009 at 4:30:31 am

Helmut wrote: It's also been great to be able to talk directly to the company's ownership...


This is one of the main reasons I'm about to buy the 2450. Their rep came to our office with all four of their monitors to compare to our Panny LCDs... We were all blown away. Maybe it's because I run my shop right down the road from their HQ, but I actually feel like my $5K will be spent wisely and with the confidence that they will stand behind their product, and if I have an issue, I can pick up the phone, talk to a person and have my problem addressed.

My 2 cents... But I am confident that my Panny LCD will make quite a nice client desk monitor by next month!

greydogcreative.com


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Leonardo Hallal
Re: Another vote for the FSI
on Jan 9, 2010 at 1:51:16 pm

Hello there.

I just got a 1760w and I think it's an amazing monitor!

But I have a question you might be able to answer... What is the correct gamma setting for color grading HD and SD material (not to print to film)? There's a gamma select (film or uncorrected) and then a Film Gamma option that came set as 2.2

I know I want color temperature to be 6500K and that is the color temperature of the my ambient light as well.

Thanks for all

Leo Hallal
Brazilian colorist


Leonardo Hallal
Brazilian colorist


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