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KONA 3 vs. KONA LHi

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Pat McGowan
KONA 3 vs. KONA LHi
on Apr 28, 2009 at 11:17:20 am

I am about to place an order for 3 cards. Anyone care to chime in with Pros and Cons of going with LHi cards instead of KONA 3s? We are working in the compressed HD world for now (Panasonic DVCPROHD with HDX900 and HVX200) but will migrate to 2K in 2010.



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walter biscardi
Re: KONA 3 vs. KONA LHi
on Apr 28, 2009 at 11:45:22 am

2K appears to be the only difference. Kona 3 has it, LHi does not.

However, the LHi does have the 3G input so I'm not sure if that will allow for 2k in the future. But according to the matrix in the brochure, the LHi does not support 2k.

I'm doing consulting work for a Georgia Broadcaster right now and we're changing the order from 8 Kona 3's to 8 Kona LHi's as they have zero need for 2k, the price difference is awesome, and the on-board analog inputs with HDMI are sweet.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Biscardi Creative Media
HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions.

Read my Blog!

STOP STARING AND START GRADING WITH APPLE COLOR Apple Color Training DVD available now!


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gary adcock
Re: KONA 3 vs. KONA LHi
on Apr 28, 2009 at 12:01:24 pm

[Pat McGowan] " Anyone care to chime in with Pros and Cons of going with LHi cards instead of KONA 3s? We are working in the compressed HD world for now (Panasonic DVCPROHD with HDX900 and HVX200) but will migrate to 2K in 2010. "


The LHI cards are the start of the new look for video, 2K, up/down/cross conversion are all passed via single link or 3G SDI standards.
{A more recent interface, 3G-SDI, consisting of a single 2.970 Gbit/s serial link, is standardized in SMPTE 424M that will replace the dual link HD-SDI.}

TheLHI card handles everything the Kona3 does except HSDL connections( high speed data link) from film scanners and the like or anything working with the existing dual link HDSDI connections from really high end cameras and decks.

With v1.3 HDMI spec on the card that makes high quality monitoring simpler by allowing for lower cost but high quality consumer grade displays in your suite rather than using HDSDI or Component.

The LHI cards should work just fine for your needs, and you save a few bucks in the process.




gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows

Inside look at the IoHD
http://library.creativecow.net/articles/adcock_gary/AJAIOHD.php




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walter biscardi
Re: KONA 3 vs. KONA LHi
on Apr 28, 2009 at 12:16:28 pm

[gary adcock] "The LHI cards are the start of the new look for video, 2K, up/down/cross conversion are all passed via single link or 3G SDI standards.
{A more recent interface, 3G-SDI, consisting of a single 2.970 Gbit/s serial link, is standardized in SMPTE 424M that will replace the dual link HD-SDI.} "


I thought so, but since the brochure did not specifically mention 2k for LHi I wasn't sure if it was fully supported on the card. Nice to see the 3G already coming on board at AJA as our new FSI monitors already have the 3G inputs built in.



Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Biscardi Creative Media
HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions.

Read my Blog!

STOP STARING AND START GRADING WITH APPLE COLOR Apple Color Training DVD available now!


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Pat McGowan
Re: KONA 3 vs. KONA LHi
on Apr 28, 2009 at 12:54:20 pm

Thanks Walter and Gary - pressing button to order 3 LHi boards now....



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: KONA 3 vs. KONA LHi
on Apr 28, 2009 at 2:04:08 pm

[walter biscardi] "since the brochure did not specifically mention 2k for LHi I wasn't sure if it was fully supported on the card."

LHi will go up to 1080p60, not beyond. If you are doing 2K beyond 1920x1080, then you will need to go Kona 3.

Jeremy


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Kent Stipp
Re: KONA 3 vs. KONA LHi
on Apr 28, 2009 at 3:28:27 pm

It was my understanding the Lhi was quite simmilar but that NO 2K and no 4.4.4 but other than that we had the speed and the up down and cross convert.
So if you do not need either of those the Lhi would be the hot ticket

Kent Stipp
Life Begins at 155mph
Ki PRO Lens to Post
3am Studios llc.
3amstudios.org
Sharedsummitsfever.com



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gary adcock
Re: KONA 3 vs. KONA LHi
on Apr 28, 2009 at 4:05:34 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "LHi will go up to 1080p60, not beyond."

JG you are correct,

I was quoting the full 3G/ spec, whereas the LHI card specs are for the 3G/a version and the only time the LHI outputs via SDI in 3G mode is for 1080p50, p59.94 and p60 which is only 4:2:2 over baseband.




gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows

Inside look at the IoHD
http://library.creativecow.net/articles/adcock_gary/AJAIOHD.php




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walter biscardi
Re: KONA 3 vs. KONA LHi
on Apr 28, 2009 at 4:10:22 pm

Thanks for clarifying guys. 1080/60p is still sweet for $1,500.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Biscardi Creative Media
HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions.

Read my Blog!

STOP STARING AND START GRADING WITH APPLE COLOR Apple Color Training DVD available now!


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: KONA 3 vs. KONA LHi
on Apr 28, 2009 at 4:18:53 pm

[walter biscardi] "Thanks for clarifying guys. 1080/60p is still sweet for $1,500. "

Oh, no doubt. The LHi is totally sweet. I just wanted to make sure that everyone know it was not beyond the 1920x1080 geometry since Pat said he was going 2K. Up, down, cross, analog, digital, HDMI 1.3a, 3Gb SDI, LTC in and out for $1495? Man. Couldn't really ask for much more.

Jeremy


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Pat McGowan
Re: KONA 3 vs. KONA LHi
on Apr 28, 2009 at 5:26:17 pm

We'll go with the LHi solution for now as I smell a new product launch for 2K workflow from AJA......I will feel much better about it than if i went ahead and ordered 3 KONA 3s......



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Joe Murray
Re: KONA 3 vs. KONA LHi
on Apr 30, 2009 at 7:30:41 pm

Does this mean the LHi would be inappropriate for Red camera project? Or only if you want to export 2K signals to a monitor? For example, could you work in a 2K timeline, but output 720 or 1080 to a monitor realtime with the LHi, or would this require a Kona 2?

Joe Murray
Edit at Joe's
Charlotte, NC


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: KONA 3 vs. KONA LHi
on Apr 30, 2009 at 7:40:07 pm

[Joe Murray] "For example, could you work in a 2K timeline, but output 720 or 1080 to a monitor realtime with the LHi, or would this require a Kona 2?
"


It would rewuire a Kona 3 if you are working in geometries that are over 1920x1080. Depending in your RED workflow, you could transcode the RAW files to 1920x1080 and then you would edit, finish and color correct those files @ 1080 essentially. If you want a more tradiitonal 2K workflow and eventually color the 2 or 4K RAW, you'd need a Kona 3.

Jeremy


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Pat McGowan
Re: KONA 3 vs. KONA LHi
on Apr 30, 2009 at 10:12:30 pm

Exactly, we are predominantly a DVCPRO HD and soon to be XDCAM environment and we intend to migrate to 2K and 4K as things evolve. So, even if we do shoot using a RED we'll finish at 1920 X 1080 for now. Next year's product cycle should bring really interesting advances in 2K aquisition and also hardware options for post production. Therefore we'll use the KONA LHi's. Now going with 4 of these.



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Chris Borjis
RED ROCKET + Kona-LHi
on May 1, 2009 at 12:09:24 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "If you are doing 2K beyond 1920x1080, then you will need to go Kona 3."

suppose you have the Kona-Lhi and the Red Rocket.

then you can do 4k output if you want without the kona3 that can't yet do 4k.

RED is the only time I'll be doing 2k or beyond if I'm going to be doing it so
why not couple an LHi with a Rocket (buy the rocket with the money saved)

this makes perfect sense to the workflow here where I work. We're doing more
RED with lots more in the future when Scarlet debut's



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gary adcock
Re: RED ROCKET + Kona-LHi
on May 1, 2009 at 2:07:59 pm

[Chris Borjis] "suppose you have the Kona-Lhi and the Red Rocket.
then you can do 4k output if you want without the kona3 that can't yet do 4k.
"


nope...
RED Rocket is not shipping yet,
the LHI is limited to a max 1920 x 1080 frame raster.

gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows

Inside look at the IoHD
http://library.creativecow.net/articles/adcock_gary/AJAIOHD.php




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Chris Borjis
Re: RED ROCKET + Kona-LHi
on May 1, 2009 at 4:03:12 pm

[gary adcock] "nope...
RED Rocket is not shipping yet,"


for now.

I'm talking WHEN it ships.



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: RED ROCKET + Kona-LHi
on May 1, 2009 at 3:38:17 pm

[Chris Borjis] "suppose you have the Kona-Lhi and the Red Rocket. "

I'd imagine you'd need two machines. Also, it wholly depends on your Red workflow. Even if you do master beyond 2K, where are you going to play it?

For all itents and purposes, 1920x1080 is damn near 2K, it's just that 2kers don't want to admit they are really shooting HD. ;-D

Jeremy


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Chris Borjis
Re: RED ROCKET + Kona-LHi
on May 1, 2009 at 4:15:34 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Even if you do master beyond 2K, where are you going to play it?"

the client with their Red Ray of course. :) (when IT ships)





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Nigel Thompson
Re: RED ROCKET + Kona-LHi
on May 1, 2009 at 11:02:38 pm

LOL:

i agree. That my only problem with RED Rocket, what exactly are you gonna monitor it on.

unless u have one of those sony 4k projectors or a Barco thingy u wont see 4k, there are no 4k monitors, and wont be for a while. now if it's an accelerator so you can zip through color easier then oh hell yes.

i actually taut they would partner with Aja on this. but what ever

HVX200, RED ONE, FCS and more,
High End, Production & Post Production
in the Caribbean
http://www.bistt.com


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Ramona Howard
Re: RED ROCKET + Kona-LHi
on May 1, 2009 at 11:19:10 pm

If it is being used in a product like the RaveDi that offers real-time scaling :) then you don't have monitoring worries.

Cheers,
Ramona

Play hard today, it may be raining tomorrow!


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Jerry Hofmann
Re: KONA 3 vs. KONA LHi
on May 2, 2009 at 12:44:57 am

I worked in AJA's booth and my station at NAB was showing the Lhi card. If all you need is HD. This card ROCKS. Next gen inside too... It's AJA's latest capture card with the latest chipset from the company. It's also a bargain for what you get. a Hot dang winner IMHO.

Kona 3 has very long legs however. It's the world's most powerful I/O card for FCP I still believe. Certainly the standard. It is still the way to go for RED. Also for the few who need dual link, it has that too.

Maybe do one station with a 3, and buy Lhi's for the others? Won't need all in 2k?

You can down res the RED to HD on the way in as well.

Jerry


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Joe Murray
Re: KONA 3 vs. KONA LHi
on May 2, 2009 at 1:08:33 am

[Jerry Hofmann] "Maybe do one station with a 3, and buy Lhi's for the others? Won't need all in 2k?"

Thought about when I ordered a K3 last week, but with shared storage I really like the flexibility of opening up any project in any room. With Red proxies this is possible (not with 4K obviously...) so I passed on the LHi. Does look like a pretty sweet deal for its target market though.

Joe Murray
Edit at Joe's
Charlotte, NC


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Pat McGowan
Re: KONA 3 vs. KONA LHi
on May 5, 2009 at 3:15:51 pm

Hopefully we'll see a card next product cycle that gives us the 2-4K processing throughput and the analog I/O of an LHi.



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Gary Bettan
Re: KONA 3 vs. KONA LHi
on Apr 28, 2009 at 3:25:38 pm

I think you have to really look at what your real time-frame is for moving to 2K, and if you think you'll be adding more workstations at that time. With the $1,495 MSRP price tag I have no doubt the KonaLHi will get the job done for you today and pay for itself in short order. You just don't want to back yourself into a corner either.

You are looking to put cards into 3 workstations. Sometimes in situations like this we'll suggest perhaps going with one Kona 3 and 2 of the LHi's. This way if a 2K or higher opportunity comes your way, you're not left on the outside looking in.

I'd also make sure that you think about your 2K future when making your storage decisions. Having one of your workstations equipped with Kona 3 and a more substantial storage solution may be a better long term plan. Then again in this economy, every penny counts.

Just some thoughts.

Gary


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gary adcock
Re: KONA 3 vs. KONA LHi
on Apr 28, 2009 at 4:01:01 pm

[Gary Bettan] "Videoguys.com 800 323-2325 | We are the desk top video editing and DVD production experts!"

Gary

the constant sales pitch has gotten annoying, if you want to pitch on Creative Cow buy ad space, as it is not welcome in the forums.



gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows

Inside look at the IoHD
http://library.creativecow.net/articles/adcock_gary/AJAIOHD.php




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Gary Bettan
Re: KONA 3 vs. KONA LHi
on Apr 28, 2009 at 4:31:06 pm

Gary,

Got it. no more links back to the website.

Gary



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Pat McGowan
Re: KONA 3 vs. KONA LHi
on Apr 28, 2009 at 5:36:43 pm

Why not allow folks to post their websites here? I checked the pricing for the LHi and FCP Studio bundle on the Videoguys site and I'm really glad I did.



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gary adcock
Re: KONA 3 vs. KONA LHi
on Apr 28, 2009 at 6:09:17 pm

[Pat McGowan] "Why not allow folks to post their websites here? I checked the pricing for the LHi and FCP Studio bundle on the Videoguys site and I'm really glad I did. "

Pat

the Cow receives its revenue from ad sales, if vendors are going to sell their products here they need to maintain those within the status quo,
ie: Ad's from resellers and vendors are not to be posted as responses in forum messages.

I know I do not really want to wade thru dozens of sales pitches when I am looking for technical assistance, do you? That is why promotion like that is not allowed in the context of the forums and their replies.



gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows

Inside look at the IoHD
http://library.creativecow.net/articles/adcock_gary/AJAIOHD.php




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Pat McGowan
Re: KONA 3 vs. KONA LHi
on Apr 28, 2009 at 7:40:34 pm

Hmmm, I was not aware that this is purely a technical assistance community. I see it just as much of a networking site. I have made many valuable contacts for production support, equipment sourcing etc. here over the years. Personally I don't have a problem with Gary posting his contact info in his signature, it is his corporate identity, I certainly did not think there was any pitching or salemanship going on.

My 2 cents.

Pat McGowan
http://www.inmotion.ca
patm@inmotion.ca



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Shane Ross
Re: KONA 3 vs. KONA LHi
on May 1, 2009 at 2:55:38 am

A other big difference is that the Kona 3 has 12 channels of embedded audio via SDI and the LHi has only 8 channels.

While I really want the LHi, I need to output 10 channels of audio to hdcam SR. So the Kona 3 is what I need

But man that LHi is appealing.

Shane



GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Chris Borjis
Re: KONA 3 vs. KONA LHi
on May 1, 2009 at 7:10:42 am

[Shane Ross] "A other big difference is that the Kona 3 has 12 channels of embedded audio via SDI and the LHi has only 8 channels."

NNNNNOOOOOOO!

dangit. and here I thought I'd be all set with an LHi and a RED Rocket.

Damn.



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Pat McGowan
Re: KONA 3 vs. KONA LHi
on May 1, 2009 at 11:26:30 am

Alright Gary so where do you draw the line? I see in a post right below this thread that you actually directed someone to the B&H website. Please correct me if I'm wrong but I did not get the impression that Gary Bettan was selling anything when you admonished him a few posts back in this thread, all he did was attach his contact info and company slogan to his post. Or is he a chronic thread pitcher? It really makes no difference to me but I thought the tone of you response to him was rather sharp.



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walter biscardi
Re: KONA 3 vs. KONA LHi
on May 1, 2009 at 12:05:39 pm

[Pat McGowan] "Please correct me if I'm wrong but I did not get the impression that Gary Bettan was selling anything when you admonished him a few posts back in this thread, all he did was attach his contact info and company slogan to his post."

Here's the difference.

Resellers trolling the forums for sales leads. This is frowned upon across the entire Cow community and generally these posts are removed. The Cow is free to users thanks to the advertisers who support this Cow. If you want to get sales leads from the Cow, then pay for advertising, don't troll the forums.

Recommendations from users. This is standard because the user is not selling anything. They are passing along information about where to get a product to another user and they get nothing in return for the lead. This is where the Cow is the strongest because you want honest opinions on products and companies based on user experience, not a salesman.

Here's an honest opinion, I do not purchase from and would never recommend B&H to anyone. That's from my own personal experience.



Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Biscardi Creative Media
HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions.

Read my Blog!

STOP STARING AND START GRADING WITH APPLE COLOR Apple Color Training DVD available now!


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Pat McGowan
Re: KONA 3 vs. KONA LHi
on May 1, 2009 at 12:10:53 pm

That's fair enough Walter but end-users are not the only folks in here, nor should they be. Manufacturers, dealers and sales folks are a valuable part of the community so I would hate to think they won't participate. It's a fine line......



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gary adcock
Re: KONA 3 vs. KONA LHi
on May 1, 2009 at 2:37:00 pm

[Pat McGowan] " Manufacturers, dealers and sales folks are a valuable part of the community so I would hate to think they won't participate. It's a fine line...... "

Pat
it was not just one forum, walter and I see all of the posts from dozens or more of the forums- if the same post is popping up across all of them, we say something.

Go back an look at the post list on this thread - many of GaryB's posts have been removed ( looks like 3-5 of them) I do not want to see someone give as much help as he has, then have the many of thier posts removed because of issues like this.



gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows

Inside look at the IoHD
http://library.creativecow.net/articles/adcock_gary/AJAIOHD.php




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Pat McGowan
Re: KONA 3 vs. KONA LHi
on May 1, 2009 at 5:31:29 pm

I hear you Gary. All good.



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gary adcock
K3 vs LHI
on May 1, 2009 at 2:29:26 pm

PAT,

WTF? I have not posted anything that recommended that anyone to B&H.
The only like I have posted was to an FREE Red event that I am speaking at in the RED forum. It was posted in one forum, one time.

I asked GaryB to back off on the pitch, - it is Cow policy to limit sales posts by companies that do not also advertise on the Cow- GaryB was very polite and I let the matter go since he acted as a professional should {IMHO}.

I thought that was the end of the story

It is one thing to have an individual post a link to a site - but another altogether when a person is posting the same sales only info multiple times in multiple forums at once as part of their job descriptions (ie: Why HDExpo is no longer allowed to post info here)






gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows

Inside look at the IoHD
http://library.creativecow.net/articles/adcock_gary/AJAIOHD.php




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Pat McGowan
Re: K3 vs LHI
on May 1, 2009 at 2:36:29 pm

end of story



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Keith Pratt
Re: K3 vs LHI
on May 1, 2009 at 6:59:17 pm

To bring it back on topic, the LHi will output RGB, right? Specs on their site list input/output of SMPTE424M and RGB over HDMI.

It's the latter I'm mainly concerned with. I'm doing mostly file-based stuff, grading on an HP LP2480zx, and need the output over HDMI to be RGB. With this card, Color and DPX files, am I going to get that?


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Ramona Howard
Re: K3 vs LHI
on May 1, 2009 at 9:11:07 pm

Keith,

If you don't want to muss around go with the K3 and an AJA SDI to HDMI converter.This way you get all the features you need, when you need them. Yes it is more $, welcome to the world of professional workflows.

The LHI is a cool board but what is really needed is the K3 with HDMI. So work around it and add two of their great products together :)

I would make a call AJA and confirm the converter supports the higher HDMI spec so that you can shove 8, 10, 12, 16bit down the connection to match what the K3 can give you......

DO NOT TRUST ANYONES MARKETING INFORMATION (many market 10bit plus support. but they use a lower HDMI spec. That is because they support 10plus in only on the SDI side, so they are only telling half the truth, making it all ok....NOT)

Cheers,
Ramona

Play hard today, it may be raining tomorrow!


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: K3 vs LHI
on May 2, 2009 at 3:08:50 pm

[Ramona Howard] "I would make a call AJA and confirm the converter supports the higher HDMI spec so that you can shove 8, 10, 12, 16bit down the connection to match what the K3 can give you...... "

All new AJA converters/PCI boards/KiPros have HDMI 1.3a.

That's the Hi5 3G/Kona LHi/KiPro




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Ramona Howard
Re: K3 vs LHI
on May 2, 2009 at 4:40:24 pm

The SDI to HDMI converter (Hi5) has been out a bit, thus the need for the confirmation. The manual makes no mention of which HDMI spec is being used.

We all must learn to question and research for the facts, even if information is coming from our friends :)

Good information is hard to find BUT bad information spreads like wildfire.

NEVER assume that something is correct because "it should" follow a standard. Ha....we know those rules are being broken left and right!

AJA is fortunately one of the companies you can turn to, to get accurate information with what they are doing.

Cheers,
Ramona

Play hard today, it may be raining tomorrow!


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gary adcock
Re: K3 vs LHI
on May 2, 2009 at 4:51:51 pm

[Ramona Howard] "The SDI to HDMI converter (Hi5) has been out a bit, thus the need for the confirmation. The manual makes no mention of which HDMI spec is being used.
"


good point.

the original Hi5 only supported the HDMI 1.1 spec (as the IoHD does) that does not support the deep color space, hence the reason for the new upgraded model Hi5 3G that now does support the HDMI 1.3 space.

FYI - the vast majority of the HDMI tools on the market currently do not support the HDMI 1.3 specs- like FW - all HDMI is not the same.



gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows

Inside look at the IoHD
http://library.creativecow.net/articles/adcock_gary/AJAIOHD.php




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Keith Pratt
Re: K3 vs LHI
on May 6, 2009 at 10:56:30 pm

Thanks for the replies everyone. AJA are making it pretty clear all their new stuff supports 10-bit and RGB over HDMI. I'm assuming the same is true over SDI, but I'm not certain. They state support for SMPTE424M. I'm not sure whether that could be used solely to denote 4:2:2 50/60p or whether RGB support is necessarily included in it...


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