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Timecode Drift

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Rob Neilson
Timecode Drift
on Dec 6, 2008 at 8:24:06 am

Hello,

I'm trying to output 1920x1080, 4:4:4, 23.98 HDSR from Final Cut to an SRW-1 via a Kona 3 with a K3-Box, but I'm having major timecode drift issues. I'm striping the first minute or so of the HDSR tape and using edit to tape to lay everything down. I've striped using both the edit to tape method and through the deck, but neither seems to be working? Some reels are 6 frames out, some 2 - one reel even made it through with no drift? I can't figure this out, I've tried everything. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks.

Rn


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gary adcock
Re: Timecode Drift
on Dec 6, 2008 at 5:24:48 pm

[Rob Neilson] "'m trying to output 1920x1080, 4:4:4, 23.98 HDSR from Final Cut to an SRW-1 via a Kona 3 with a K3-Box, but I'm having major timecode drift issues."

Ok the usual we need more info....

hardware and software FCP , QT and Kona versions.

do you have the use QT timecode box checked in the Control panel




gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows

Inside look at the IoHD
http://library.creativecow.net/articles/adcock_gary/AJAIOHD.php




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gary adcock
Re: Timecode Drift
on Dec 6, 2008 at 5:32:23 pm

lets try that image again....

this is in the Kona control panel under timecode.





gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows

Inside look at the IoHD
http://library.creativecow.net/articles/adcock_gary/AJAIOHD.php




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jason levy
Is it supposed to be on or off?
on Dec 10, 2008 at 5:48:00 pm

We're having the same problem but trying to mastser to a Panasonic AJ HD1400..

jason





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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Is it supposed to be on or off?
on Dec 13, 2008 at 7:15:31 pm

[jason levy] "We're having the same problem but trying to mastser to a Panasonic AJ HD1400.. "

What have you tried?


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jason levy
Re: Is it supposed to be on or off?
on Dec 13, 2008 at 9:28:58 pm

Well, we've tried a number of things and now the timecode is no longer drifting but when we assemble from 09:58:40;00 (with a picture start of 10 hours) the 2 pop and picture start is off by 2 frames (though the initial insert is accurate). Also we cannot insert accurately... Sorry not to be more specific. The editor knows the details and I'll ask him Monday.

So it's getting closer.

What I don't get is why the timecode counts 60 frames for each second on the sequence but 30 frames for each second on the deck. Is that normal?

jason



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Is it supposed to be on or off?
on Dec 14, 2008 at 5:49:54 pm

[jason levy] "Is that normal? "

Yep. 60p material is based on 30 fps tc. Its' weird and I don't get it. I believe it probably has to do with dragging that ole NTSC legacy around. Basically, two frames get assigned one tc number.


[jason levy] "Well, we've tried a number of things and now the timecode is no longer drifting but when we assemble from 09:58:40;00 (with a picture start of 10 hours) the 2 pop and picture start is off by 2 frames (though the initial insert is accurate)."

Are you sure your timeline is setup properly? Meaning are you sure that your b&t aren't 2 frames long? Are you sure that you might be accounting or not accounting for df tc in both FCP and the deck?

ALso, have you calibrated the timing of your deck to your Kona? I can tell you how to do this, but actually the FCP manual has a pretty decent description on doing so.


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jason levy
Re: Is it supposed to be on or off?
on Dec 14, 2008 at 8:33:32 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "ALso, have you calibrated the timing of your deck to your Kona? I can tell you how to do this, but actually the FCP manual has a pretty decent description on doing so."

Hmm. Can you refer me to the manual page? Thanks Jeremy.

Jason



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jason levy
solved it...
on Dec 15, 2008 at 5:31:37 pm

We are now able to insert accurately.

When you right click on the timecode display on the sequence it gives you some options including HH:MM:SS:FF and 60@30. We found it set to the latter by default but we changed it to the former and suddenly the inserts are accurate. We must set the in by clicking on the "in" button not entering the numeric inpoint on the keypad.

I don't totally understand why this works but the 60 to 30 conversion definately required the right tweaks to work correctly.

Thanks for your help Jeremy.

jason





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Jeremy Garchow
Re: solved it...
on Dec 15, 2008 at 5:47:08 pm

Of course, that makes sense. FCP allows you to view SPMTE tc or view the frames as 60 discreet fps. You can do this on a clip by clip basis as well. It was probably a matter of FCP not knowing where to insert on the correct frame.

Good sleuthing.

Jeremy


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Rob Neilson
Re: Timecode Drift
on Dec 7, 2008 at 1:27:36 am

Thanks very much for the response Gary!

I'm on a 2x2.8 GHz Quad-Core MacPro with 4 GB of RAM. I'm using FCP 6.0.3 with a Kona 3 card and Box and QT Pro 7.5. I do have the Use QT Timecode box checked.

Rn


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gary adcock
Re: Timecode Drift
on Dec 7, 2008 at 3:10:29 pm

[Rob Neilson] "I'm on a 2x2.8 GHz Quad-Core MacPro with 4 GB of RAM. I'm using FCP 6.0.3 with a Kona 3 card and Box and QT Pro 7.5. I do have the Use QT Timecode box checked. "

I would update to 6.05 and the newest kona driver then make sure to flash the firmware when you update the kona.

I too had issues with the 6.03 fcp update.





gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows

Inside look at the IoHD
http://library.creativecow.net/articles/adcock_gary/AJAIOHD.php




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Rob Neilson
Update Re: Timecode Drift
on Dec 7, 2008 at 5:47:30 am

I've just attempted another output and discovered the drift is inconsistent? Around the three minute mark the edits are actually happening one frame earlier than they should, then they even out and begin to happen late as the reel continues.
I'm obviously missing something here?

I'm using a Kona 3 (6.0), FCP 6.03, QT 7.5 on a Mac Pro 2x2.8 Quad-Core.

Rn



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Kevin Wild
Re: Update Timecode Drift
on Dec 7, 2008 at 8:58:24 am

Your card is in the right slot, right? I just had a bunch of sync issues with a brand new Intel and realized that my Kona card was in the wrong slot. You can no longer use PCI Expansion Utility to tell it how fast it needs to be...it's all set internally. So...Kona in slot 2 is best, I believe.

Good luck.



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gary adcock
Re: Update Timecode Drift
on Dec 7, 2008 at 3:12:59 pm

[Kevin Wild] " So...Kona in slot 2 is best, I believe. "

nope
slot 2 is next to the graphic card-

the farthest slot from the graphics card gets the HBA for storage- (#4)

the 3rd slot from the graphics card is where the kona works best (#3)




gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows

Inside look at the IoHD
http://library.creativecow.net/articles/adcock_gary/AJAIOHD.php




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gary adcock
Re: Update Timecode Drift
on Dec 7, 2008 at 3:16:16 pm

[Rob Neilson] "I've just attempted another output and discovered the drift is inconsistent? "

then there is something in your project that is off.

is it completely rendered? and the audio mixed down?

have you tried using the final as a self-contained movie? usually the issue falls somewhere in the storage's ability to access assorted files that have been rendered across the array.





gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows

Inside look at the IoHD
http://library.creativecow.net/articles/adcock_gary/AJAIOHD.php




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Rob Neilson
Re: Update Timecode Drift
on Dec 8, 2008 at 4:08:02 am

I've tried mixing down the audio (guide track), even deleting it (other than the two-pop), but it didn't do anything. There's nothing to render either - the video is in the same format as the timeline.
I've now exported some of the reels, and found that the exported QT files aren't frame accurate either? They're all too long, which is very odd.
However, when I import them back into the project file and overlay them on the timeline, they go back to being the correct length!



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gary adcock
Re: Update Timecode Drift
on Dec 8, 2008 at 5:57:04 pm

[Rob Neilson] "'ve now exported some of the reels, and found that the exported QT files aren't frame accurate either? They're all too long, which is very odd. "

Rob

dumb question but please tell me you are not working with DF timecode-- 23.98 is always NDF and this sounds somewhat like the problem you are having.

gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows

Inside look at the IoHD
http://library.creativecow.net/articles/adcock_gary/AJAIOHD.php




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Rob Neilson
Re: Update Timecode Drift
on Dec 14, 2008 at 10:17:08 am

Sorry for the delay.
I was working in NDF - it felt like that sort of problem to me too, but unfortunately it wasn't that simple. I never really figured out what the problem was, but I did manage to find a workaround.
Once I realized that the exported movies were out too, I decided that it must have had something to do with the frame rate. So, I exported the reels again using QT conversion, at 24 fps (23.98 wasn't an option). Thankfully, this movie was frame accurate, so I imported it back into FCP, put it on a 23.98 timeline and output to tape via the Kona card. I did several tests on each HDSR reel and they seemed to be frame accurate. I haven't heard anything bad from Technicolor yet, so I'm hoping everything's been resolved.



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