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Which Kona for me?

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Michael Nichols
Which Kona for me?
on Oct 18, 2008 at 7:14:08 pm

I have an 8 Core Mac Pro and 2K scans (which are actually 1868 x 780 DPX - 2perf 35mm) I am using Glue Tools to edit the DPX files in FCP.

All I need is the ability to monitor out to an HD monitor. Do I NEED a Kona 3? All I am going to be doing is grading in Color and I need the ability to monitor out in HD at 1080.


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gary adcock
Re: Which Kona for me?
on Oct 18, 2008 at 9:13:17 pm

[Michael Nichols] "I have an 8 Core Mac Pro and 2K scans (which are actually 1868 x 780 DPX - 2perf 35mm) I am using Glue Tools to edit the DPX files in FCP. "

FYI that is technically not a 2K scan, the 2K moniker has been defined by SMPTE to be a scan that is 2048 or larger and your scans are not even 1920x1080.

However the only GT implementation is only on the Kona 3 Card, so yes you would need the K3 card.

gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows

Inside look at the IoHD




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Michael Nichols
Re: Which Kona for me?
on Oct 18, 2008 at 9:43:52 pm

Thanks. I figured the K3 was my only choice.

I know it isn't 2K, but that is the resolution from the 3k to 2k arriscan for my 2 perf 35mm. 2-perf only uses Academy Aperture width since Full Aperture gives you a 2.66 : 1 aspect ratio. Full Aperture 35mm scans at 2K are 2046 pixels across, whereas using only Academy width are 1828 pixels across



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Bob Zelin
Re: Which Kona for me?
on Oct 18, 2008 at 11:09:36 pm

would you have been happier if you could have chosen the AJA Kona LHe, or Blackmagic Decklink HD Extreme ? You ARE working in 2K with DPX files, right ? You are shooting with an Arri in Film, right ?
Isn't quality the only thing you are really concerned with ?

Bob Zelin




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Michael Nichols
Re: Which Kona for me?
on Oct 19, 2008 at 1:08:05 am

Yes, but what does one have to do with the other?? By that token, since I shot on 35mm film, did a 2K scan et al, shouldn't I expect nothing less than Champagne and Caviar? All kidding aside, what does the Kona 3 do for me if i/o isn't in the cards? All I need is 1080p monitoring capabilities. Unless, and I could very well be mistaken, there is the possibility of monitoring via dual link SDI.



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Which Kona for me?
on Oct 19, 2008 at 1:13:20 am

Like Gary said, GlueTools functionality is only operable on the Kona3. it does not exist on the other Kona cards.

Jeremy


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Bob Zelin
Re: Which Kona for me?
on Oct 19, 2008 at 2:11:23 am

Unless, and I could very well be mistaken, there is the possibility of monitoring via dual link SDI.


you just said the last and final word - you need the Kona 3. And YES, you SHOULD expect champagne and caviar - as ALL PROFESSIONALS on this list should demand. ONLY champagne and caviar for ALL OF US - no McDonalds EVER ! Very well put. Anyone that even suggests McDonalds - kill them. (Unless McDonalds is the client - and we use their money to get the champagne and caviar).

Bob Zelin




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Paul Provost
Re: Which Kona for me?
on Oct 19, 2008 at 2:40:57 am

what's going on with the HP dreamcolor monitor and that new nvidia (or is it ati) card that outputs 10 bit over dvi? would that be a monitor only solution. haven't really put the pieces together in my head yet.

"HE'S SUCH A GIRL" HD feature film
grade and finish @ post + beam
http://www.postandbeam.tv


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Ramona Howard
Re: Which Kona for me?
on Oct 19, 2008 at 1:30:06 pm

I would suggest that all get their hands on the DVI spec and read it carefully before jumping into any monitoring.

Cheers,
Ramona



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Ramona Howard
Re: Which Kona for me?
on Oct 19, 2008 at 1:50:45 pm

Should have added 10bit monitoring.

Cheers,
Ramona



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Paul Provost
Re: Which Kona for me?
on Oct 20, 2008 at 5:25:59 am

trying to remember, but now i think it was actually an invidia card with an sdi daughter card which means of course that you would need a sdi to (10 bit) hdmi (1.3) converter to the hp dreamcolor - which comes with a calibration probe i think - and 601, 709 etc precalibrated presets. interesting. and they just dropped the price $1000 to $2499. just interesting i think.
and i just got an email from ecinema touting big price drops, at least for their low end screen. hmm.

"HE'S SUCH A GIRL" HD feature film
grade and finish @ post + beam
http://www.postandbeam.tv


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Ramona Howard
Re: Which Kona for me?
on Oct 20, 2008 at 3:18:07 pm

Yes, 10bit would have to come over SDI or HDMI as DVI is only 8bit, always has been.

All I can say, is don't fall into the hype with any of this stuff, do your homework and know exactly what you are getting as it will effect all of our viewing pleasure down the road.

My .02 cents,
Ramona



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Marijn Eken
Re: Which Kona for me?
on Oct 20, 2008 at 11:31:22 pm

Ramona, maybe you should have read those DVI specs yourself as well. If you read carefully you can find that it DOES support 10-bit signals. Always has :-)

Although I must admit that it's also clear from the specs that no official 'standard' has been developed as to what a 10-bit DVI signal should look like. So it is possible, as long as the video card and monitor play nicely together.
I'm saying all of this from the top of my head, but I think there was also some kind of bandwidth limitation when using 10-bit so I'm not sure up to what resolution you could go.



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Ramona Howard
Re: Which Kona for me?
on Oct 21, 2008 at 12:32:37 am

Marjin,

Hate to stir it up here, but,....

Have poured over them, along with many specs. You say it very clearly, you think but are not sure of several aspects, be sure before you jump in as it makes a big difference as to what others take away from this.. We are talking about HD resolutions or higher (why in earth would you want 10bit in anything lower).

This is all part of the bad information that gets passed around. Hell, we would all like to believe that guy we have known for years, that tells us that something is correct and not have to worry that it isn't, but the reality is we can't because of bad info, or rather clever marketing.....you choose. That is why I say, get the spec and read it yourself and what you don't understand turn to an engineer rather that a sales guy. Oh and good luck with that, not an easy thing to decipher, unless your John Abt :)

I will leave you with a comment that is made by another manufacture that knows DVI very well. You do the internet search on which one :)

I think the answer for now is pretty simple. The Dreamcolor does not accept an SDI input. The NVidia cards do not do anything greater than 8-bit on DVI output.

Tab A does not fit into Slot B.

It would be cool for several applications if DVI would output greater than 8-bit. But it doesn't and probably will not anytime soon. So for right now, HD-SDI is the viable path.

I stand by my comment, along with many engineers at many facilities. FYI this is why we have not rolled a DVI solution into ours and continue to turn to AJA for a true 10bit (or higher) solution. You work in 10bit (or higher), need to view 10 bit (or higher), then you need to make sure that is what your looking at and nothing less..

Cheers,
Ramona



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Ramona Howard
Re: Which Kona for me?
on Oct 21, 2008 at 12:44:04 am

Will add take a look at wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DVI

A single DVI link consists of four twisted pairs of wire (red, green, blue, and clock) to transmit 24 bits per pixel.

That would be 8 bit :)

Cheers,
Ramona



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Paul Provost
Re: Which Kona for me?
on Oct 21, 2008 at 5:22:38 am

ok, but wait. the dreamcolor does have hdmi right? and hdmi 1.3 spec can handle 10bit (i think). so the decklink extreme pro extra super (or whatever they call it now - it has hdmi out - 10 bit? i don't know).
or you could go nvidia daughter card out sdi or kona 3 sdi to a sdi to hdmi (hopefully 1.3 10 bit) into the dreamcolor?
i'm just saying this is an interesting monitor (have never even seen one yet).
fyi i use kona 3 into a sony crt pvm 20L5/1 for hd monitoring, so i got dogs in this race...

"HE'S SUCH A GIRL" HD feature film
grade and finish @ post + beam
http://www.postandbeam.tv


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Ramona Howard
Re: Which Kona for me?
on Oct 21, 2008 at 6:29:36 am

Paul,

Yes the HDMI spec does support 10bit.

Better yet, just go with the SDI to HDMI $400 AJA converter to add to a solution you already own. It would be cool if AJA added this into their Kbox, I would happily pay the extra $. This way one solution gives you assured pass thru, bit for bit for both methods of delivery. I think the Dreamcolor will be a popular monitor and no doubt that many others will go this path also. HDMI makes sense to the monitor (don't expect all the other high-end gear to change) which is why the Kbox solution would be very good all the way around. For portable on-set jobs, less is more. The less hardware and connections to add in the mix the better :)

Cheers,
Ramona



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Ramona Howard
Re: Which Kona for me?
on Oct 21, 2008 at 6:44:34 am

Forgot to add that this is for HDMI 1.3 (2006), sorry anything older doesn't apply.

Also, it support 12 and 16bit :)

Cheers,
Ramona



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Paul Provost
Re: Which Kona for me?
on Oct 21, 2008 at 7:28:39 am

but, does the aja sdi to hdmi box do 1.3 10 bit (i've found it hard to get the specs from either bmd or aja.) as it is we do pass thru from the sony crt hd to the latest panny plasma pro 1080p 50" for client monitor and it is ok - just compared on a sony 4k projector (but still only hd output from kona 3) and levels look good to eye (dp, director and colorist (me) opinion).

"HE'S SUCH A GIRL" HD feature film
grade and finish @ post + beam
http://www.postandbeam.tv


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Which Kona for me?
on Oct 21, 2008 at 1:57:37 pm

Don't forget the dreamcolor has component.

I don't know that many devices that have HDMI 1.3 built in.

Jeremy


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Ramona Howard
Re: Which Kona for me?
on Oct 21, 2008 at 2:28:20 pm

So know everyone knows the right questions to ask and are thinking like engineers :)

Thanks for letting me put it out there.

We take great pride in Rave and the goal has always been to do a product that moves bit for bit and be as open as we can about it. Because of this we are forced to understand every aspect of every component and how it is effecting them. It helps to be surrounded by people who demand the same. AJA has always been one of those companies that understands this importance.

When it comes to your bits don't be suckered in by marketing, dig and get the real truth.

Cheers,
Ramona



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gary adcock
Re: Which Kona for me?
on Oct 21, 2008 at 2:18:53 pm

[Paul Provost] "ok, but wait. the dreamcolor does have hdmi right? and hdmi 1.3 spec can handle 10bit (i think)"

Yes that would be correct,

However
as far as I know-the HDMI 1.3 spec is only on 2- professional products those being the the dream color display and Cine-tal's Davio

AJA uses HDMI 1.2 and BMD use the HDMI 1.1 spec in hardware as there devices predate the release of the HDMI 1.3 specs.


(Ramona, I had dinner with John A. last nite- and he confirmed your DVI comment)


gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows

Inside look at the IoHD




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Ramona Howard
Re: Which Kona for me?
on Oct 21, 2008 at 2:40:22 pm

Gary,

Isn't it funny that the products using DVI never divulged this. I am still amazed at who I run into that still thinks DVI does 10bit. argh....

Talk about the wool over people eyes.

Hey are you in town? GV? I will be up on Thursday.

Bummer on the 1.2, hopefully they will see the importance and jump to 1.3. Hey guys, don't get rid of those CRTs just yet but it looks like things are almost there.

Cheers,
Ramona



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Bob Zelin
Re: Which Kona for me?
on Oct 19, 2008 at 2:41:07 pm

please remember that the HP Dreamcolor monitor is not a video monitor, and has no HD-SDI inputs - only DVI. So if I were a graphics guy, and wanted to do hi end work for Discreet, AE, Maya, etc., I would certainly be jumping to look at this monitor. But for guys like us that are dealing with HD-SDI workflow (that involve products from Sony, Panasonic, JVC, Blackmagic, AJA, and other video manufacturers), this monitor is not even in the running when comparing it to the usual Panasonic, JVC, Sony, CineTal, TV Logic, eCinema, etc. You would be at the mercy of HD-SDI to DVI converters from AJA and Blackmagic (and Gefen and DoReMi).

Bob Zelin




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gary adcock
Re: Which Kona for me?
on Oct 19, 2008 at 12:13:14 pm

[Michael Nichols] "Full Aperture 35mm scans at 2K are 2046 pixels across, whereas using only Academy width are 1828 pixels across
"


2-perf is just now gaining ground on the shooting side and there are other options for the delivery.
I work on scans larger than 1828 because the client insisted for the FULL 3K scans to get a lager final output then scaled them down in post to 1920 x 1080

The current software for the Arriscan allows for multiple res files from 2perf scans, since I was told that your files at the res you are working at were the "offline" version, not the finals.





gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows

Inside look at the IoHD




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Michael Nichols
Re: Which Kona for me?
on Oct 20, 2008 at 3:49:06 pm

I wish I had this info prior to my scan job! The 3K files no longer exist for this project!! That would have been great to scale down as opposed to scale up!



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Michael Nichols
Re: Which Kona for me?
on Oct 20, 2008 at 6:14:25 pm

Hey Gary,

Thanks for the advice! I went and picked up a Kona 3 for my set up. Now my question is this: With my scans at 1868 x 780, what is my best course of action moving forward? I have my cut completed in an 1868 x 780 sequence within FCP/Gluetools. I want to grade this in Color and then output through the Kona to an SR Deck. Should I finish everything working within the 1868 x 780 dimensions and then bring into After Effects, Shake or the like and uprez horizontally to fill the 1920 wide canvas with black pad on the top and bottom?



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