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Christian Vassallo
Capturing digi
on Oct 6, 2008 at 11:08:41 pm

Hi guys

I've recently set up my new suite and have been having an issue with capturing digi. This might end up being an FCP question rather than a Kona question but please bear with me.

When capturing digi into FCP i was initially using an AJA Io and have since upgraded to a Kona 3. I have been capturing Uncompressed 10 bit PAL and working on a timeline to suit that format - i set it up in easy setup and checked all the settings afterwards in a/v settings.

The thing is that the quality of the captured image isn't as sharp as i know it should be coming from digi and being uncompressed 10 bit.

It's pretty good, but I have noticed a few jagged edges on some high contrast areas like peoples sleeves, if they're wearing a white t shirt for example. It's been driving me crazy because i don't know why it is happening. I know it's not the tape or the deck because i plugged the deck into an avid suite and the picture was perfect on the broadcast monitor.

I thought it might have been the AJA Io but the same has been happening since i upgraded to the Kona 3. I don't even think it's a setting within my version of FCP (6.0.4) becuase when i plugged the firewire from the Io into my MBP and captured i had the same problem as i got on my Mac Pro with both the Io and the K3.

It is most noticable when i view back on a standard flatscreen via composite out - the same footage captured in avid is much higher quality then the footage captured in FCP via Io or Kona 3.

I hope i have explained myself ok and you may be able to shed some light on my problem.

Thanks in advance

Christian


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Bob Zelin
Re: Capturing digi
on Oct 7, 2008 at 12:18:57 am

you ask to "bear with me", but you state -

"It is most noticable when i view back on a standard flatscreen via composite out - the same footage captured in avid is much higher quality then the footage captured in FCP via Io or Kona 3. "

REPLY - the image quality of STANDARD DEF via composite on a "standard flatscreen" - (you mean LCD flat screen) is CRAP !
Take your Digi Beta composite video output, and stick it into your flat screen composite video input - how does it look - pretty crappy I bet !

Most flat screen LCD monitors look like crap with standard def - ESPECIALLY with COMPOSITE video !

Drag that broadcast monitior in from your AVID suite into your room, and do the tests again (and this time, use analog component video, and not composite) - now, how does it look.

Bob Zelin






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Christian Vassallo
Re: Capturing digi
on Oct 7, 2008 at 7:18:56 am

Hi Bob

I should have stated that i have been viewing all the captured media on my own broadcast monitor in my suite as well, via both the SDI and RBG output from the Kona 3.

I know composite out is crappy, but all i meant was that all the problems i can see on my broadcast monitor are more accentuated and easier to point out when viewed via the composite. I have run everything in both the avid suite and my fcp suite and the problem is only there in fcp, so i was wondering if you were aware of a similar sort of jagged edge problem occurring with fcp before, and what i need to do right to avoid it.

Cheers



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Stuart Simpson
Re: Capturing digi
on Oct 7, 2008 at 10:45:28 am

Have you tried capturing to a different codec to see if the problem persists? Prores HQ, or DV50?

-Simmie
4 MacPros - Kona 3 & Kona LH
2 G5s - Kona LH
xbox360, Wii, PSP, PS2
http://www.speak.co.uk


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Christian Vassallo
Re: Capturing digi
on Oct 7, 2008 at 10:59:15 am

Hi - yeah i tried capturing in DV50 and the problem was still there. What other codecs would you recommend i try?

Christian



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Stuart Simpson
Re: Capturing digi
on Oct 7, 2008 at 11:28:28 am

If you still see it on the DV50 and Prores captures then I'm stumped.

I have had a lot of digi material lately with excessive edge enhancement though, mostly when we've used the DVW-970P. Dunno if the default setting is too high... Could it be a problem with your camera?

-Simmie
4 MacPros - Kona 3 & Kona LH
2 G5s - Kona LH
xbox360, Wii, PSP, PS2
http://www.speak.co.uk


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gary adcock
Re: Capturing digi
on Oct 7, 2008 at 1:30:47 pm

[Stuart Simpson] "If you still see it on the DV50 and Prores captures then I'm stumped. "

WHAT are the RT settings? turn them to "safe rt" and look again.

My guess is that this is an issue with the RT engine not delivering full quality outputs on lesser machines.

FYI -ProRes content played back on NON-Intel machines cannot not be viewed at full quality until rendered!


gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows

Inside look at the IoHD




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Christian Vassallo
Re: Capturing digi
on Oct 7, 2008 at 2:38:00 pm

Hi Gary

Thanks for you input - i was hoping that my RT was set to unlimited but alas is it set to safe, and i'm using a Mac Pro 2 x 3 GHz Dual-Core Intel Xeon with 8gb RAM, NVIDIA GeForce 7300 GT graphics card and brand new Kona 3. Could there be something wrong with the signal being sent from my digi deck? A simple switch that's accidentally been flicked perhaps?

Thanks to all for your your continued input



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gary adcock
Re: Capturing digi
on Oct 7, 2008 at 3:42:36 pm

[Christian Vassallo] "and brand new Kona 3. "

Christian,
did you make sure to update the firmware on the card that comes with the new Kona Driver?



gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows

Inside look at the IoHD




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Christian Vassallo
Re: Capturing digi
on Oct 7, 2008 at 4:22:26 pm

Yeah, when i installed it i went to the website and downloaded the most up-to-date drivers as of last week.



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Arnie Schlissel
Re: Capturing digi
on Oct 8, 2008 at 7:14:37 pm

[gary adcock] "did you make sure to update the firmware on the card that comes with the new Kona Driver?"

[Christian Vassallo] "Yeah, when i installed it i went to the website and downloaded the most up-to-date drivers as of last week."

Firmware and drivers are different things. The firmware updates the Kona card itself, the drivers tell your Mac how to talk to the Kona.

Arnie

Post production is not an afterthought!
http://www.arniepix.com/


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walter biscardi
Re: Capturing digi
on Oct 7, 2008 at 11:05:57 am

[Christian Vassallo] "It's pretty good, but I have noticed a few jagged edges on some high contrast areas like peoples sleeves, if they're wearing a white t shirt for example. It's been driving me crazy because i don't know why it is happening. I know it's not the tape or the deck because i plugged the deck into an avid suite and the picture was perfect on the broadcast monitor. "

And you don't see this just on playback from the deck? High contrast areas can be a problem on digibeta because the footage is compressed on the original recording. High contrast areas show compression more than any other area.

Viewing via Composite on an LCD standard def monitor will make the footage look the absolute worst it can look.



Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Biscardi Creative Media
HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions.

Read my Blog!

STOP STARING AND START GRADING WITH APPLE COLOR Apple Color Training DVD available now!


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Christian Vassallo
Re: Capturing digi
on Oct 7, 2008 at 11:19:47 am

Hi Walter

I seem to remember you've been really helpful in the past.

Yeah i wish i had never mentioned the composite now - please ignore that comment - i have captured the same media in avid and fcp and viewed both assets on a broadcast monitor and the footage captured in avid looks how it should, with as clean lines as you would expect from SD digi, and the footage captured in fcp viewed on the same monitor is visibly poorer quality.



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walter biscardi
Re: Capturing digi
on Oct 7, 2008 at 11:29:37 am

Are you using a proper Easy Setup in FCP or did you create your own Custom Setup? Sounds like too much compression is being added in FCP.

If you're working with 10bit PAL SD, then just use the AJA Kona 3 PAL 10bit SD Easy Setup and don't change anything.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Biscardi Creative Media
HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions.

Read my Blog!

STOP STARING AND START GRADING WITH APPLE COLOR Apple Color Training DVD available now!


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Christian Vassallo
Re: Capturing digi
on Oct 7, 2008 at 11:38:55 am

That exactly what i did - ctrl Q - then selected AJA KONA 3 PAL 10 bit Uncompressed. Frame rate @ 25fps



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paul Provost
Re: Capturing digi
on Oct 8, 2008 at 2:23:46 am

how about the kona control panel? it is very easy to have this set incorrectly so that you are converting the output to something else without even knowing it. i would carefully go through all the tabs and settings and make sure those are all ok.

"HE'S SUCH A GIRL" HD feature film
grade and finish @ post + beam


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Christian Vassallo
Re: Capturing digi
on Oct 14, 2008 at 9:42:23 am

Hi Paul

Thanks for your post. I changed a couple of things in my control panel, the main difference being i changed my reference from Freerun to Video In.

Thanks to everyone who shared their time in helping with this thread. In the end i cracked the problem and i must say that although it makes me out to look like a complete fool i still have no idea how it happened - the clips were being captured with a frame size of 767x576, not 720x576 like PAL should be. I have no idea how this happened - as far as i know all my capture settings were fine - it's pretty difficult to get it wrong with Easy Setup! Anyway, that coupled with the fact that i set my field dominance to None instead of Upper was the source of the problem. (I had mixed formats in my original timeline which is why i changed it - i have now applied the shift fields filter to half the clips and kept the sequence dominance to upper)

Once again, thanks to everyone who took the time to help me out.





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Arnie Schlissel
Re: Capturing digi
on Oct 14, 2008 at 3:08:58 pm

[Christian Vassallo] "the main difference being i changed my reference from Freerun to Video In."

Before Bob gets around to it, let me suggest that you pick up an AJA Gen10 sync generator. For around $400 US, it will sync PAL, NTSC and HD. Black Magic makes a similar product for $300 US, BTW.

Arnie

Post production is not an afterthought!
http://www.arniepix.com/


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Christian Vassallo
Re: Capturing digi
on Oct 14, 2008 at 3:41:01 pm

Thanks for the heads up Arnie - i was already looking at the Black Magic one today - i'll order it now.



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