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Ace Cruz
outputting to HDcam SR
on Aug 31, 2008 at 11:32:21 pm

Can anyone help me the systematic way mastering out a feature film on 5.1 surround sound. I just bought a Kona 3 card for my Intel Duel Core Mac running Leapord, 8 gigs of RAM, 2.66 processor.

I am using FCP 6. I cut a whole feature film and need to put it on a master tape. (HDcam SR). I have 5.1 surround sound.

I want to make sure I do this right, because I have to rent the deck which is very expensive, so I don't want to screw up.

How do I set my setting in FCP and what are the proper way to plug the kona 3 cables into the deck. Also, what should the deck settings be on.

help.



ace


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Paul Provost
Re: outputting to HDcam SR
on Aug 31, 2008 at 11:49:45 pm

wow. maybe you might want to take the project to a post house to lay this off for you. there is so much to know on this and many potential pitfalls (framerates, deck settings, sync, kona settings, etc, etc). or at least rent from a house that can provide a tech to help you get setup for output.
just out of curiosity, what format did you cut this in, and how have you been monitoring?

Paul Provost
http://www.postandbeam.tv


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Ramona Howard
Re: outputting to HDcam SR
on Sep 1, 2008 at 5:21:24 pm

Ace,

Paul is correct. Being in LA you have a huge list of places you can go to on this. This will insure you get it done right as these shops do this everyday (pretty much all of the networks have gone to a 4:4:4 workflow).

Your hardware will work (as long as you have the disk speed behind it, which you do not mention) but there is soooo much more to this.

Is your time more valuable trying to figure this out? or spent elsewhere? and can you afford the time it will take to go thru the learning curve and the mistakes you will make? or the money out of your pocket to do so? those are the questions to ask yourself.

I can figure out how to change the oil in my car, but I choose to take it to someone who can do it much faster. My time is very valuable to me. Costs me a bit more but I get to make more elsewhere....and without getting my hands dirty or breaking a nail (joking)

The trick. Establish a friendship with a studio, you may be surprised what you can get on a budget when you do so :)

*this is what filmaking is really about - friendships

If you need contacts email me off list
ramona@spectsoft.com

Cheers,
Ramona



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Ace Cruz
Re: outputting to HDcam SR
on Sep 1, 2008 at 10:33:57 pm

I have the time to learn the process and I am really interested in learning the layback process. That's why i want to ask a lot of questions to get this information.

I shot the feature on the panasonic HVX 200 with the P2 card. I used the 16 x 9 24p settings and transfered the files to FCP which converted it to quicktime movies (960 x 720).

I also shot some footage during the pick up shots with a vari cam.

I then imported the cut to Apple Color. Did the color correction and rendered it out with the settings to

aja kona 10 bit rgb 4:2:2.

any suggestions on what I should do now.

ace


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Ramona Howard
Re: outputting to HDcam SR
on Sep 2, 2008 at 12:32:20 am

Are you only going out to SR because that is what is specified for delivery? If this is going to a film-out will they take a file? This way you don't add to the degradation (be it slight, it is there. Remember this isn't the best quality to start with)

aja kona 10 bit rgb 4:2:2.

1920x1080 I presume?

You can do two things.

render out a QT or render out to DPX, put the files on a portable firewire and take it to one of the places I sent you. They have products that can support taking the files off the firewire drive and spitting out to tape.

No your 7200rpm 1TB firewire drives will not play out an uncompressed 10bit RGB file, even if it's in only 4:2:2 (nice try). The only thing they will be good for is portability or playing out a highly compressed file that requires less thruput.

You should be able to render to them directly. Just keep in mind they will be slow. from there just take them to someone else.

My only suggestion in the future with this set-up is to use the higher capabilities of both the camera and FCP. The HVX200's resolution is recorded at 960x720 for 720p mode, and 1280x1080 for 1080i mode in 60 Hz territories; in 50 Hz (PAL) regions it is recorded at 1440x1080. If your doing feature film work that may go to the screen you want as much resolution as possible to start.

I am by means no expert on the camera (try Adam Wilt on what he suggests to shot in for the best results).

Old computer saying "GIGO" - Garbage in, Garbage out. Start with the best you can get, because unless you have the right tools you are going to degrade this every step of the way.

*This is why uncompressed is still the only viable workflow solution for feature work. Even at a lesser resolution, if you bring in uncompressed and stay uncompressed you don't add to the degradation.

Hope that helps you out a bit in the future and although I admire the creativity side, take the real work to the professionals who do this day in and day out.

Cheers,
Ramona








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Ace Cruz
Re: outputting to HDcam SR
on Sep 1, 2008 at 10:36:55 pm

I forgot to tell you I am using firewire drives at 7200 rpms. 1 terabite.
what drive will be good for this job?



ace


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Paul Provost
Re: outputting to HDcam SR
on Sep 2, 2008 at 12:01:22 am

10 bit hd on a firewire drive and you want to layoff to SR. I think you might be a little over your head on this one. again, how did you monitor your color session? on an HD monitor out of your kona3? a color critical monitor?
so you are basically asking this forum to hold your hand and teach you what has taken us our entire careers to learn - how we make a living and pay our mortgage and feed our kids. you don't want to pay one of us (who know how to do this), but only teach you how to do it for free? right?

this forum used to be about professionals helping professionals (ie. "i have and hdcamsr deck here and can't figure out the sync error I'm getting - I thought looping ref would be ok". reply "YOU IDIOT! YOU NEED TRI-SYNC FOR 23.98 signed Bob Z.) and that would be that.

now it has become: Hi! I've never done anything before - can you guys take time out of your day and teach me everything you know?
I have actually had people call me at work and say "I just bought finalcut and need to cut a commercial here at home because I don't want to pay you to do it. can you teach me how to do it now over the phone? i am not kidding - word for word.

Paul Provost
http://www.postandbeam.tv


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Ramona Howard
Re: outputting to HDcam SR
on Sep 2, 2008 at 12:43:42 am

My guess is thru a graphics board because he stated he just got his Kona3. I will refrain from commenting.....

Hey Paul, you hold classes don't you, I could use some help. They are free, right?


Cheers,
Ramona



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Mike Cohen
Re: outputting to HDcam SR
on Sep 8, 2008 at 8:34:51 pm

I see this as one of the challenges of low budget filmmaking. I won't call this independent filmmaking, because indy films often have decent budgets. Low budget filmmaking on the other hand seems to entail one person trying to shoot, direct, edit and not ask for help. Thus, people seem to not think things through.
There have been countless posts on the COW entitled "What camera should I buy?" whereas the better posts read "Does this workflow make sense?"

The original post of this thread is somewhere between these two - workflow not quite thought out, guy wants to do everything himself.

That being said, he did come to the right place for advice, however I agree that aside from specific questions, the "what do I do now, i'm clueless" approach is bound to get responses like those in this thread.

To the original post writer, take the advice and get some professional help. If you are aiming to make a HD master for film-out, you must have some budget available for this process. Spend the money and learn what you can from the people you hire. While it is satisfying to have the skills yourself, it is an expensive effort to learn by trial and error at this high level of technical work.
Good luck.

Mike Cohen


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Ramona Howard
Re: outputting to HDcam SR
on Sep 1, 2008 at 5:42:38 pm

Can anyone help me the systematic way mastering out a feature film on 5.1 surround sound. I just bought a Kona 3 card for my Intel Duel Core Mac running Leapord, 8 gigs of RAM, 2.66 processor.

I am using FCP 6. I cut a whole feature film and need to put it on a master tape. (HDcam SR). I have 5.1 surround sound.


I wanted to add to Aces post or rather bring up some questions/issues. Food for thought.

He states here he cut a whole feature BUT he does not state in what format (codec) he has used. Also no mention of what the original material was. He also wants to go out to SR for the master.

my .02 cents

If your cutting in a proxie format (at this point anything less than the quality of the master) what is it going to gain you to output to a higher format? You do it because the studio requires that deliverable. Well guess what, so much of what we are seeing that looks like crap (visually) is because a real workflow is not be followed. (Ace not saying your not, your post just opened the discussion)

The best workflow is to cut with a proxie, conform to the master and output that. In the case of the master material, anything captured in that is not in an uncompressed format is going to result in compressing down an already compressed format. Now you wish to output that to possibly a higher format than what you started with?

Generation loss happens regardless if your going tape to tape or format to format, I think something most forget because the picture looks great on my 30". If you follow a true to form workflow you can be assured that no generation loss can happen from ingest to master. Yes it is more work but the tools are all there to do it.

You want to play in HD with the big boys, then start thinking like them.

Cheers,
Ramona






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Bob Zelin
Re: outputting to HDcam SR
on Sep 2, 2008 at 9:23:43 pm

Ace -
I have not read all the replies, so I apologize if I am repeating what others have told you. The SRW-5500 is like no other VTR that has ever come out. It's true Rocket Science. It took me 3 hours to figure out just how to play a tape back on this VTR (and I've been doing this since 1978). When I got the rental deck from VER, I called their local tech for support, and he had no clue, and I had to wait until I got someone from their LA office on the phone to help me thru the menus.

If you think that someone here will say "just push this menu, and everything will start to work", you are dreaming. This is NOTHING like a HDW-M2000 or HDW-1800. It's insanely complicated. Since you have no background in this, I urge you to not do this by yourself.

Bob Zelin




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Stephen Panning
Re: outputting to HDcam SR
on Sep 3, 2008 at 9:24:55 pm

Hi Ace,

My company, Chicago HD, specializes in HD post production services including mastering. If you'd like us to lay your quicktime movie off to HDCAM-SR for you, I'd be happy to talk with you about that.

Steve
Chicago HD


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