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VTR Xchange Drop Frames

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Alex Varas
VTR Xchange Drop Frames
on Aug 13, 2008 at 7:42:08 am

Hello,

Using Kona3 in MacPro I just installed VTR Xchange to get dpx from our Telecine.

I tried HD 422, 444 and 2K15fps and everytime I got drop frames in both ways (capturing with marks and capture "live")
But in the same computer using FinalCut I can capture HD without any problem.

How can I solve this problem with drop frames?

Thank you all,

Alex


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gary adcock
Re: VTR Xchange Drop Frames
on Aug 13, 2008 at 1:30:32 pm

[Alex Varas] "I tried HD 422, 444 and 2K15fps and everytime I got drop frames in both ways (capturing with marks and capture "live") "

Did you set up VTR exchange to write to the correct scratch disk?
did you turn on " capturing frames"

is your disk drive fast enough? DPX frames at 23.98 requires an array that exceed 300 MBps.

gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows
Inside look at the IoHD




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Alex Varas
Re: VTR Xchange Drop Frames
on Aug 13, 2008 at 1:48:41 pm

Hi Gary,

Where is it "capturing frames" option?? I just checked and I cant find it. I just followed the manual to get HD and 2K when setting up video input, etc... saying I want files (dpx) and not only quicktime.

I agree about 300 MB/sec, but if I can do it in FC in the same computer, why not with VTR Xchange?

I will attach a 2GB FC array disk and make the test to ensure more speed in any case...

Thanks a lot,

Alex



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: VTR Xchange Drop Frames
on Aug 13, 2008 at 2:44:04 pm

In the preferences, there's "save as Numbered Files"

Then in the video compression settings, you have to change the compressor to 10 bit RGB to 10 bit LOG RGB, whatever you're getting from your source.

And as gary mentioned, you need a fast array and make sure that VTR Exchange is recording to that array. This is also located in the preferences.

Jeremy


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gary adcock
Re: VTR Xchange Drop Frames
on Aug 13, 2008 at 3:28:05 pm

[Alex Varas] "I agree about 300 MB/sec, but if I can do it in FC in the same computer, why not with VTR Xchange? "

OK this does not answer the Question. How fast and what kind of array are you capturing to.

FCP cannot capture DPX frames, FCP does not handle content larger than 2048 wide, FCP can capture in compressed formats.

IT does not work for you because it is not configured properly to do what you want.

You have to set Video Settings, Audio Settings and Prefs inside this app correctly to get this to work
I have done this on a variety of TK machines.



gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows
Inside look at the IoHD




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Bob Zelin
Re: VTR Xchange Drop Frames - rant
on Aug 14, 2008 at 2:46:03 am

Alex writes -
I agree about 300 MB/sec, but if I can do it in FC in the same computer, why not with VTR Xchange?

I will attach a 2GB FC array disk and make the test to ensure more speed in any case...

My calm reply -
NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO ! !!!!!! ALEX NO !

You are DREAMING if you think you are going to capture 2K with the internal drives on your MAC Pro - even with 3 internal SATA drives stripped together. And when you say "I will attach a 2GB BC array disk" - THIS MEANS NOTHING. If you attach a loaded Apple XServe RAID with 14 drives (which is a 2 Gig FC array) - THIS IS NOT FAST ENOUGH FOR 2K FILES. WHY DO YOU ASSUME THIS.

To do 2K files, you need a MODERN FAST DISK DRIVE ARRAY that will do 500mb/sec or over. 300mb/sec is BARE MINIMUM and you will not get reliable SUSTAINED PERFORMANCE from this data rate. A loaded 2GB FC array like an Apple XServe RAID with 14 drives stripped RAID 50 is NOT FAST ENOUGH.

SO WHAT DO YOU NEED ? You need a MODERN DISK DRIVE ARRAY - where can you find one ? Right here on Creative Cow - right here on this forum - look to your left, and look to your right. See the ads from Dulce Systems, Cal Digit, Maxx Digital, G-Tech, Sonnet Technology - they ALL MAKE wonderful hi speed drive arrays that all run above 500mb/sec, and will ALL work for 2K files with SUSTAINED performance. IF you are an "Apple Only" guy, then you need the Promise VTrak which is a 4GB FC array that will cost double of any of the products that you see advertised on Creative Cow.

If you do not take my advice YOU WILL FAIL.

Bob Zelin





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Alex Varas
Re: VTR Xchange Drop Frames - rant
on Aug 15, 2008 at 11:38:49 am

Hi all,

Thanks a lot for your answers.

The main goal for me is to get HD, both ways 422 or 444 with Kona3, 2K files is a bonus.

I tried to connect infortrend A24F-G2430 (FC to SATA) to MacPro, but the LSI 7202EP doesnt like it at all... Or anyone has one connected?? I just checked compatibilities and they dont match...

So now the option for HBA is ATTO FC-42ES, 4Gb FC.

So with A24F-G2430 and ATTO FC-42ES, do you think I would get those 300 MB/sec or even more??
Which kind of raid? raid5? how many disk in that array?? I can get up to 24 disk.

Thanks in advance and have a great weekend :)

Alex


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walter biscardi
Re: VTR Xchange Drop Frames - rant
on Aug 15, 2008 at 12:10:34 pm

[Alex Varas] "So now the option for HBA is ATTO FC-42ES, 4Gb FC.

So with A24F-G2430 and ATTO FC-42ES, do you think I would get those 300 MB/sec or even more??
Which kind of raid? raid5? how many disk in that array?? I can get up to 24 disk. "


You still have not answered the question of "which RAID are you running?" The HBA doesn't matter at all without the correct RAID. We run an 8 bay MaxxDigital EVO HD unit that tops out at 500MB/s in RAID 5.

Which array are you running?


Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Biscardi Creative Media
HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions.

STOP STARING AND START GRADING WITH APPLE COLOR Apple Color Training DVD available now!
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Bob Zelin
Re: VTR Xchange Drop Frames - rant
on Aug 15, 2008 at 12:20:27 pm

Hi Alex -
you have this Infortrend drive array, correct ?
http://www.infortrend.com/main/2_product/es_a24f-r(g)2430.asp
This is the Infortrend EonStore.

You will have nothing but grief with the LSI Logic host controller cards on a MAC. I urge you to follow your own advice and only use an ATTO 42ES.

However, as Walter has just mentioned, there are MUCH CHEAPER products on the market, that are simply SAS/SATA, that will do the same job for a lot less money. You can see these products right on these forums, in the banner ads to the left and right of your page right now.

bob Zelin




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Alex Varas
Re: VTR Xchange Drop Frames - rant
on Aug 15, 2008 at 12:33:55 pm

Hi again,

To Walter:

The first tests I was making were on the system disk (200MB/sec) and SAN drive (not full speed channel) also another 218 MB/sec, both reading writing as average.

So thats why I want to implement the infortrend box, with null result due LSI HBA...

To Bob:

Much cheaper?? I guess you mean disk arrays, yes they are more cheap than infortrend ones, but happens I already have one. The thing I want is to use the two channels and split the disks, some for the system actually working (just keeping info) and some for the thing I wanna.
If the system with VTR Xchange + MacPro + Infortrend + WhatEverHBA (I hope ATTO 42ES) are gonna give me the enough speed to get what I want I will buy the ATTO, the only thing left...

My decision to get ATTO is both are verified by SAN provider and Infortrend, also ATTO has been working with Mac during ages.

So... do you think with this mentioned config will I get the bandwidth to get even 2K??

Thanks again :)

Alex


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walter biscardi
Re: VTR Xchange Drop Frames - rant
on Aug 15, 2008 at 12:38:43 pm

[Alex Varas] "To Walter:

The first tests I was making were on the system disk (200MB/sec) and SAN drive (not full speed channel) also another 218 MB/sec, both reading writing as average.

So thats why I want to implement the infortrend box, with null result due LSI HBA... "


Neither is fast enough for reliable uncompressed HD capture and definitely not for 2k.

No clue on the Infotrend box, what does the manufacturer say about the speeds possible with the various HBA's? That's really the only way to know for sure what your box is capable of before you purchase anything.





Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Biscardi Creative Media
HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions.

STOP STARING AND START GRADING WITH APPLE COLOR Apple Color Training DVD available now!
Read my Blog!
View Walter Biscardi's profile on LinkedIn


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Alex Varas
Re: VTR Xchange Drop Frames - rant
on Aug 15, 2008 at 1:11:42 pm

Hi Walter,

I just did a test with the AJA test program in a windows system, it has connected another Infortrend, 24 raid5 disks and the bandwith I get are 350MB/sec writing and 380MB/sec reading.

I hope this is enough, or not? :)

Regards,

Alex



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walter biscardi
Re: VTR Xchange Drop Frames - rant
on Aug 15, 2008 at 1:32:51 pm

[Alex Varas] "I just did a test with the AJA test program in a windows system, it has connected another Infortrend, 24 raid5 disks and the bandwith I get are 350MB/sec writing and 380MB/sec reading.

I hope this is enough, or not? :) "


It's a Windows test so I'm not really sure what that tells us. You're running 24 discs and getting that slow of speed?



Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Biscardi Creative Media
HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions.

STOP STARING AND START GRADING WITH APPLE COLOR Apple Color Training DVD available now!
Read my Blog!
View Walter Biscardi's profile on LinkedIn


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Alex Varas
Re: VTR Xchange Drop Frames - rant
on Aug 15, 2008 at 1:39:11 pm

Hi Walter,

The program is:

AJA XENA System Test Version 1

From AJA, with this program you can make bandwidth tests against your disks with different resolutions and different sizes of info.
Being from AJA I trust on what they say.

I just asked infortrend how much will I get using the ATTO 42ES with their box...

Regards,

Alex



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walter biscardi
Re: VTR Xchange Drop Frames - rant
on Aug 15, 2008 at 1:58:38 pm

[Alex Varas] "Being from AJA I trust on what they say. "

So do I, for a Windows based system. You need to run the same test using the AJA System Test on the MAC system to know for sure.




Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Biscardi Creative Media
HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions.

STOP STARING AND START GRADING WITH APPLE COLOR Apple Color Training DVD available now!
Read my Blog!
View Walter Biscardi's profile on LinkedIn


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gary adcock
Re: VTR Xchange Drop Frames - rant
on Aug 15, 2008 at 2:02:16 pm

[Alex Varas] "AJA XENA System Test Version 1 "

Alex- the default setup on this app is for SD


set the Video Frame size to be 2048 x1566 , file size to 2.0 GB and then let us know how fast it is then.


remember that Windows has a 2GB file limit that is not the same as on the mac- if it is a windows formated array your mac will never be able to get the full bandwidth out of it. it will need to be reformatted to get optimum speed out of it.



gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows
Inside look at the IoHD




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gary adcock
Re: VTR Xchange Drop Frames - rant
on Aug 15, 2008 at 1:39:47 pm

[Alex Varas] "The first tests I was making were on the system disk (200MB/sec) and SAN drive (not full speed channel) also another 218 MB/sec, both reading writing as average."

I have NEVER EVER seen a 200 MBps on a single bootable drive in my life. The theoretical MAX speed limit on a single SATA drive is a little over 100MBps, That is a server class drive that would not work in your mac. Either you are guessing or your math is incorrect.

"So thats why I want to implement the infortrend box, with null result due LSI HBA... "

LSI only ever created the Apple Branded FC cards- why are you trying to hack together an old LSI FC card in your Mac?


"The thing I want is to use the two channels and split the disks, some for the system actually working (just keeping info) and some for the thing I wanna.
So... do you think with this mentioned config will I get the bandwidth to get even 2K??
"


Not with a split array. not DPX. You will not get realtime playback at 23.98 for more than 15-30 sec until the cache throughput maxs out.

You are attempting to muddle thru a very complex and hardware intensive editing process without trying to get the proper support for a hardware config like this- you cannot slop your way thru one of the most complex hardware configurations needed for highend editing. There is a vast amount of info needed to accomplish this task - raid config, raid cache settings, block size, raid levels, hell even the config of the Atto card is important to maximize the bandwidth.



gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows
Inside look at the IoHD




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Alex Varas
Re: VTR Xchange Drop Frames - rant
on Aug 15, 2008 at 1:53:17 pm

Hi Gary,

I have NEVER EVER seen a 200 MBps on a single bootable drive in my life. The theoretical MAX speed limit on a single SATA drive is a little over 100MBps, That is a server class drive that would not work in your mac. Either you are guessing or your math is incorrect.

Forgot to mention the boot drive is stripe... I have to remake the SO, I dont like this kind of config...

LSI only ever created the Apple Branded FC cards- why are you trying to hack together an old LSI FC card in your Mac?

I apologize :) I found it this way when I came working here 4 months ago, so dunno who/why bought it...

Not with a split array. not DPX. You will not get realtime playback at 23.98 for more than 15-30 sec until the cache throughput maxs out.

I get it, dont split, it has sense...

You are attempting to muddle thru a very complex and hardware intensive editing process without trying to get the proper support for a hardware config like this- you cannot slop your way thru one of the most complex hardware configurations needed for highend editing. There is a vast amount of info needed to accomplish this task - raid config, raid cache settings, block size, raid levels, hell even the config of the Atto card is important to maximize the bandwidth.

I never though it was going to be easy, and thats why I started to write in this forum :) coz you all have more experience than me, more knowledge with raids, bandwidths, etc...

And I believe that its possible to get what I want with the minimum costs, this means buying only the ATTO and using what I have.

So do you think this config will work whatever the amount of info needed?

Thanks a lot,

Alex



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walter biscardi
Re: VTR Xchange Drop Frames - rant
on Aug 15, 2008 at 2:02:12 pm

[Alex Varas] "And I believe that its possible to get what I want with the minimum costs, this means buying only the ATTO and using what I have. "

If you believe that, then go ahead and purchase what you think will work. You've asked for our advice. None of us has ever run or testing the configuration you're attempting to build, so none of us can speak from experience on whether what you say will work.

The advice you're getting from myself, Gary and Bob is that you want a reputable, pre-configured array to work in high end HD and 2K editing. You do what you will with that advice.

Personally I would start with a brand new, pre-configured Array and HBA to do this work.

Also, I absolutely don't understand how you can have a striped set up for the Mac HD. I would completely start over with the system first, then the array if you want reliable performance.





Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Biscardi Creative Media
HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions.

STOP STARING AND START GRADING WITH APPLE COLOR Apple Color Training DVD available now!
Read my Blog!
View Walter Biscardi's profile on LinkedIn


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Alex Varas
Re: VTR Xchange Drop Frames - rant
on Aug 15, 2008 at 2:39:19 pm

Have a good weekend!!

I will come with more new test on Monday... and Walter, I know its an advice, and also I would like to take everything brand new and not to build a something with spare parts and its a blame this stripe but it would be fun to see you in my position with the great budget I have.

But its ok, if this config wont work, at least I have the ATTO FC and the MacPro, both usable if I need to get a new array.

Cheers!!

Alex



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walter biscardi
Re: VTR Xchange Drop Frames - rant
on Aug 15, 2008 at 3:02:04 pm

[Alex Varas] "but it would be fun to see you in my position with the great budget I have. "

No offense, but you're trying to set up to do Uncompressed HD and 2K editing. Even $6,000 - $8,000 for a new array and HBA adapter to support this should not be an issue. If it was me, I would purchase the proper array.

This is what I've done since I opened my business. I've used credit cards, loans, lines of credit, whatever I have needed to get the right gear in the shop for the job at hand.



Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Biscardi Creative Media
HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions.

STOP STARING AND START GRADING WITH APPLE COLOR Apple Color Training DVD available now!
Read my Blog!
View Walter Biscardi's profile on LinkedIn


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Bob Zelin
Re: VTR Xchange Drop Frames - rant
on Aug 15, 2008 at 6:58:29 pm

Alex,
I now have a better understanding of the situation. You said "when I came here" - which means that this is not your personal equipment. It's your bosses, and he said "I spent a lot of money on this equipment, and I am paying you a lot of money, so you better make this expensive equipement work for uncompressed HD and 2K".

If you email me your phone # or your bosses phone # at maxavid@cfl.rr.com, I will be happy to set your boss straight as to what his EXPENSIVE equipment can and cannot do.

A MODERN 8 bay SAS/SATA drive array can do over 500mb/sec. A modern 16 bay SAS/SATA drive array (like a Dulce ProRX) can do over 800mb/sec. Let me assure you of something - with a 24 bay array, if you can't do over 218mb/sec, SOMETHING IS WRONG ? Don't know what is wrong - well, YOU BETTER HIRE SOMEONE THAT DOES, because you are not going to get painfully detailed diagnostics on a user forum.

I can tell you one fact, however - you are NEVER EVER going to be able to do 2K at 218 mb/sec - EVER !!!

Now, it's easy for us to say "go out and buy an ATTO 42ES" - but it's not our money, and its not your money - it's your BOSSES money, and he doesn't want to spend a penny of it, because he already spent a lot of money on the Infortrend, and useless LSI Logic host buss FC adaptor. WELL TOUGH S#$% - it ain't gonna work, unless he throws some cash at it.

The Infortrend FC chassis is "industry standard" in LA, but not many other places, but it can certainly be a FAST product (certainly with 24 drives) if you use the right host buss adaptor (like ATTO), and if it is setup correctly.

Bob Zelin




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Christopher Tay
Re: VTR Xchange Drop Frames - rant
on Aug 16, 2008 at 2:50:02 am

Hi Alex,

May I know where I can find info on the incompatibility between the Apple LSI FC HBA and the Infortrend A24F-G2430 RAID storage ?

-chrispy



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Alex Varas
Re: VTR Xchange Drop Frames - rant
on Aug 18, 2008 at 6:49:07 am

Hi Chrispy,

Give me a shout alexin (at) thechimeneypot.ru and I will send you the XLS I got from their support site, you have to be registered to enter there.

Best regards,

Alex



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Alex Varas
Re: VTR Xchange Drop Frames - rant
on Aug 18, 2008 at 6:54:31 am

Hello!!

Thanks again for your posts, its very kind from you all the advices.

Now its time to get the ATTO, install it and make some tests. anyway if the infortrend wont work, ATTO wont be a waste of money.

It will take time to take it, however I will post my tests here to let you know or to ask for help to a proper ATTO config.

All the best,

Alex



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