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Duplicate First Frame on Edit to Tape

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Thomas McNamara
Duplicate First Frame on Edit to Tape
on Aug 3, 2008 at 3:28:12 am

We have a client in who is crossconverting a 90min 720p23.98 show to 1080psf23.98 HDCAMSR using the Kona 3 card and FCP 6.0.3 with Quicktime 7.5 (149).

The issue we are seeing is that when trying to do a frame-accurate insert edit, we get a duplicate first frame. This is not resolved by changing the offset; when we tried this, it just duplicated the first frame we threw down. This happens when doing an assemble edit as well.

We temporarily resolved this by setting the insert to begin on black so that a black frame was duplicated, but next week they need to recapture the first and last 2 minutes of the show (90min in length) to add credits, and layback again through an insert edit.

Obviously we can't be duplicating a frame, as this will cause a frame jerk, and will throw everything else off, including our audio. The clear solution here is to lay back from the start but this would be 90 min to recapture, 90 min to lay back to hdcamsr, instead of just capturing the 2min start and ending, and then frame-accurately re-inserting these.

We've spoken to AJA tech support (who are excellent, by the way) and a few others, and they aren't sure, but apparently this is an issue that may be caused by certain versions of FCP, Quicktime and Kona drivers.

Someone we know said that they had some sort of solution to this in the past, but can't remember how they resolved this.

Has anyone run into this, or found a solution? Does anyone have any ideas? We should be able to do frame-accurate insert edits with the Kona card in theory, but we really need to figure this one out.

Here is my system info.

Mac Pro octocore, 8GB RAM
XSan 2.0 via Fibre channel
FCP 6.0.3
Mac OSX 10.5.2
Quicktime 7.5 (149)
Kona 3 drivers 5.1 NDD

720p23.98 to 1080psf23.98
1080psf23.98 to 1080psf23.98


HDCAM-SR


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gary adcock
Re: Duplicate First Frame on Edit to Tape
on Aug 4, 2008 at 1:45:05 pm

[Thomas McNamara] "We've spoken to AJA tech support (who are excellent, by the way) and a few others, and they aren't sure, but apparently this is an issue that may be caused by certain versions of FCP, Quicktime and Kona drivers. "

so if there support is so good, did you follow their recommendations to correct the problem?

I know of 2 issues with the machine config you list, both of which can be fixed by updating to the latest version of the OS / QT / FCP none of which would be a big jump with the config you are showing.




gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows
Inside look at the IoHD




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Thomas McNamara
Re: Duplicate First Frame on Edit to Tape
on Aug 4, 2008 at 4:20:13 pm

The AJA tech we spoke to told us that our current configuration was fine as far as he knows, that he has clients with our exact configuration laying back to HDCAMSR all the time. I wouldn't have listened to them tell us to update and then not update and then come on here to wonder why it still isn't working.

If you know of 2 issues with this current config, (I am more than willing to do an update at this point.) what are the two issues, and I'm guessing that you mean OSX 10.5.4 with FCP 6.0.4, right?

We do try to follow what AJA recommends. If you know of 2 issues, and can tell me, that'll be a more compelling reason to do the update now because we're technically still in the middle of the project. We have a few days to test, so I can clone the existing drives and run what updates we need to.

Your help is greatly appreciated....as far as I'm concerned, this is the most useful aspect of creative cow - we can see what is actually working out there in the field on a regular basis, because each company can't account for the variables on every end. Thanks.


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gary adcock
Re: Duplicate First Frame on Edit to Tape
on Aug 5, 2008 at 3:49:13 pm

[Thomas McNamara] "If you know of 2 issues with this current config, (I am more than willing to do an update at this point.) what are the two issues, and I'm guessing that you mean OSX 10.5.4 with FCP 6.0.4, right? "

They are not directly related to your problem so why go off on a tangent course, and YES I am talking about getting up to the most current versions of the OS/ QT / FCP.

[Thomas McNamara] "The AJA tech we spoke to told us that our current configuration was fine as far as he knows, that he has clients with our exact configuration laying back to HDCAMSR all the time."

Laying back to tape is not the same as an insert and is not the same as an assemble- not all HDCam decks are the same- Am I to guess that you are on an SRW5000 and not one of the later models?

Have you tried to adjust the Sync point in the deck or FCP software?
Does it only happen with the 720 > 1080 cross conversion?
Which setting are you using for the conversion process.





gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows
Inside look at the IoHD




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Thomas McNamara
Re: Duplicate First Frame on Edit to Tape
on Aug 5, 2008 at 5:24:34 pm

Thanks for getting back. Yes, I should have clarified; AJA said that clients are doing both frame accurate insert edits and assemble edits on the SRW5000, using our settings and configuration, and that updating would likely have no effect on our issue.

It only happens on crossconversion, and is repeatable. The settings are 720p23.98 8bit crossconverted to 1080psf23.98 10bit. This happens on both an insert edit as well as an assemble edit.

I would've thought that changing the offset in FCP or the deck would've alleviated this, but changing offset on either end has had no effect, it just moves where the frames are duplicated. This happens also with different shots, with different in points.

The only reason I'm opening this up to the forum is because we work with someone who told us that there was a specific workaround for this very issue, but that he couldn't recall how they got around it. Otherwise this is just an unfortunate anomaly with the possibility that there isn't a simple fix, that its something with our system setup. Even though we're tackling that aspect, if there is a known workaround that would be useful.

As far as the tangent course, I'm interested because if you know of two specific issues, there are always anomalies in the editing process and knowing these issues might explain some of them...if nothing else, it is to satisfy my curiosity. The only issue I've heard of is with 10.5.2 leaving tiny gaps of time when switching processing over to other cores, opening up the possibility of dropped frames. I'd be happy to open another discussion here if you want to keep this post on topic. Thanks Gary.



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gary adcock
Re: Duplicate First Frame on Edit to Tape
on Aug 8, 2008 at 2:07:53 pm

tom

have not heard anymore from you,

I was wondering which deck protocol you are using- since sony and panny have different triggering methodology. Sony decks need sony device drivers




gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows
Inside look at the IoHD




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Joey Burnham
Re: Duplicate First Frame on Edit to Tape
on Aug 12, 2008 at 4:04:04 pm

Hopping in here. I've had the same problem with both D5 and our HDSR deck going on for almost 2 years now. Luckily all of our content is short form, so no big deal. Usually just dupes first frame of bars, but if I need to insert or assemble edit I always mark in a sec or 2 in black before picture. We tried forever to fix this awhile back but just gave up.
Joey





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Ramona Howard
Re: Duplicate First Frame on Edit to Tape
on Aug 13, 2008 at 6:55:21 am

Rave uses the AJA boards and this is not an issue today (to both D5 and SR). We did have this same problem occurring for a short time (some time ago) but we reworked some deck ballistics code and it is dead on accurate everytime now for both print to tape (assembles and inserts) and inserts and assembles to Rave from other sources.

I make this point only to show that the hardware is excellent and that not all applications are equal. Accuracy is very possible, although quite complicated to get right :)

*Rave is a Linux based product that uses the AJA boards and is written entirely in house (drivers , machine control, the whole shabang).

Cheers,
Ramona



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gary adcock
Re: Duplicate First Frame on Edit to Tape
on Aug 13, 2008 at 1:25:43 pm

[Joey Burnham] "I've had the same problem with both D5 and our HDSR deck going on for almost 2 years now. "

when dubbing across deck formats there always seem to be some issue if the conversion is being done on the fly- my issues with this problem stemmed from not remembering that Sony and Panasonic decks use different RS422 command protocols and they seem to change from model to model ( AJA at one time supplied me with specific D5 setups for the older Kona 2 card)

Usually it is in the user setup where the errors happen. I and hundreds of other users do not see the dupe frame issue you have, but the first place to look is not just the card, but the deck updates, deck setup and how your FCP is setup.

gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows
Inside look at the IoHD




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Piers McDonald
Re: Duplicate First Frame on Edit to Tape
on Aug 14, 2008 at 10:31:18 am

We're experiencing the same problem on two different Mac Pro Quad Cores, one with an LHe, one with a KONA 3. Assembling and inserting to Digibeta is rock solid, but HDCAM is a different story. It is almost impossible to do inserts without duplicating the first frame.

This is with 10.4.11, QT 7.5, FCP 6.0.3, Prores 422 and AJA v5.1

The LHe card has been taken from a G5 Quad that did not have the same problem over it's several years of service. But it was never updated beyond AJA v4.0.





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Thomas McNamara
Re: Duplicate First Frame on Edit to Tape
on Aug 14, 2008 at 5:23:54 pm

I was recently speaking to a tech about this, and he said that it's a well-known quicktime issue that comes and goes with different updates. Thoughts? My system specs are above...


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Thomas McNamara
Re: Duplicate First Frame on Edit to Tape
on Aug 14, 2008 at 5:28:07 pm

(Except I've since updated to 10.5.4 and FCP 6.0.4 per Gary's advice.)


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Todd Dalton
Re: Duplicate First Frame on Edit to Tape
on Nov 17, 2008 at 11:48:14 am

Hi,

This might be a 'dead' thread but here goes: both my system and the other systems I've worked on with Aja Kona 3 cards in HD experience a 2 frame delay on the cross-converted output when going from HD>SD or visa-versa. I've always considered it a fact of life that it takes 2 frames for the Aja to do a conversion - which is fair enough. Almost all (if not all) purpose-built aspect ratio/standards convertors take a frame or two to process the picture.

Consequently it's not possible to drop an individual shot in. You have to drop in the entire sequence from black to black.

Hope this helps and wasn't too late! :)

Todd


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gary adcock
Re: Duplicate First Frame on Edit to Tape
on Nov 17, 2008 at 2:07:17 pm

[Todd Dalton] "'ve worked on with Aja Kona 3 cards in HD experience a 2 frame delay on the cross-converted output when going from HD>SD or visa-versa. I've always considered it a fact of life that it takes 2 frames for the Aja to do a conversion"

Actually it has been a one frame since the Kona 3 came out, and yes it is a fixed period of time that for that or any kind of conversion (and is governed by SMPTE)

gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows

Inside look at the IoHD




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Ramona Howard
Re: Duplicate First Frame on Edit to Tape
on Nov 17, 2008 at 4:07:33 pm

Todd,

Consequently it's not possible to drop an individual shot in. You have to drop in the entire sequence from black to black.

Although the AJA board is a frame delayed for conversion we have made inserts entirely possible for a single frame within Rave (having to lay off the entire sequence is crazy). It boils down to much more than just the I/O device but that of good coding for all other aspects. It is about bringing the entire solution into unison :)

If you have a clear understanding of each components requirements it usually can be worked around. Just thought I would throw that out there.

Cheers,
Ramona



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