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Robert Hutchings
Direct to disk capture of SD material
on Jul 10, 2008 at 6:27:21 pm

I know this subject has come up before but we are in a bit of a time crunch. So I apologize.

We have a studio shoot that we want to record the live master cut direct to disk– with time code that matches timecode being laid down on the iso tapes. Using the Kona 3 and we thought the AJA VTR Xchange application was our solution.

Planning to use RP-188 timecode embedded in SDI to accomplish this but this is a standard definition show and RP-188 isn't working. Am I right in assuming that RP-188 is HD-SDI only and this won't work for standard definition?

Can anyone suggest another solution that allows for capture of live SD material directly to disk with timecode using the Kona 3? Thanks.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Direct to disk capture of SD material
on Jul 10, 2008 at 7:52:25 pm

YOU mean timecode, not rp188, right?

rp188 is variable frame rate flag info.

What do you mean it's not working? What version of VTR Exchange do you have? Have you set up the prefs accordingly? With the currently released version, the tc will say --:--:--:-- in the capture window but if you notice after you capture it, the correct tc will be in the file.

Jeremy


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Ramona Howard
Re: Direct to disk capture of SD material
on Jul 10, 2008 at 11:59:38 pm

Boys,

Technically, RP188 is a SMPTE transmission standard

timecode can come via RP188 (embedded), you are correct. Most SD decks don't support this, which is why I think the confusion is that it is just a HD thing.

Flagged frames are also passed via RP188, so yes it supports variable frame rates.

You both win a ribbon :)

Cheers,
Ramona



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Direct to disk capture of SD material
on Jul 11, 2008 at 12:51:39 am

See I first thought the rp188 was embedded tc along with the flagged frame info, then I learned that Rp188 is it's own tc of sorts and SMPTE timecode are two separate entities. Now I am confused.

Glad I have a ribbon though ;)




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Ramona Howard
Re: Direct to disk capture of SD material
on Jul 11, 2008 at 1:10:02 am

If it were easy, everyone would do it :)

Try giving the SMPTE RP188 doc a read, then you will surely be confused. After that tackle the RP215.....

Here is the tag line:
Transmission of Time Code and Control Code in the Ancillary Data Space of a Digital Television Data Stream

By the way there are numerous was to pass timecode and ancillary data or more than one way to skin a cat.


Cheers,
Ramona



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Direct to disk capture of SD material
on Jul 11, 2008 at 3:37:38 am

I'll take a look for it. Thanks, Ramona.

At any rate, Robert, it is possible to capture embedded tc via SD SDI. It works I've done it, but it was straight out of camera, not a deck.

Jeremy




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Robert Hutchings
Re: Direct to disk capture of SD material
on Jul 11, 2008 at 4:00:54 am

I tested directly out of our Varicam via HD-SDI and the AJA utility read the embedded timecode like a champ.

But no dice on an SDI delivered SD signal looped thru a digibeta deck.

Thanks to both of you for the education and suggested reading materials.


Robert Hutchings
Director/editor
Twin Cities Public Television


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Ramona Howard
Re: Direct to disk capture of SD material
on Jul 11, 2008 at 4:51:50 am

That is because more than likely the digibeta doesn't support it.

I am sure there is information out there somewhere that states if it does/doesn't.

Anytime on the help.

Cheers,
Ramona



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Direct to disk capture of SD material
on Jul 11, 2008 at 4:55:46 am

I think Ramona's got it.

What deck? A500?


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Robert Hutchings
Re: Direct to disk capture of SD material
on Jul 11, 2008 at 11:52:09 am

Yes. A500.

Our HDCam decks do recognize RP188 embedded timecode.


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gary adcock
Re: Direct to disk capture of SD material
on Jul 11, 2008 at 2:10:07 pm

[Ramona Howard] "Try giving the SMPTE RP188 doc a read, then you will surely be confused. After that tackle the RP215..... Here is the tag line: Transmission of Time Code and Control Code in the Ancillary Data Space of a Digital Television Data Stream"

LOL....
Ramona- you bait the hook too well.

Remember that TC info in a modern world is not necessarily meant to be a string of sequential numbers and that ancillary data tracks also handle in the same space Ubit and metadata.

" There are drop-frame and color framing flags and three extra 'binary group flag' bits used for defining the use of the user bits."

Where as RP188 in an FCP world is not usually meant for the" house TC signal" but more the Ubit info. In the Real world outside of FCP where Ramona lives -this data stream carries the vastly larger array of information not accessible to the Apple platform called Metadata.

Most people here on the Cow understand RP188 as the frame flagging info mainly used in 720p HD to attend to the Variable Frame Rate Data- in actuality other companies -Sony with the Ex1 and Xdcam lines, Thompson with the LDK and JVC's 200 too. However now we are seeing this info from the Sony f23, panasonic 3700 and even prosumer camera coming out later this year will start supporting the RP188 flagging in the 1080 stream over HDSDI or fibre.

With Rave ( and correct me if I am wrong here) the use of RP188 tracks allow the cameras to add any myriad of data into the pipe during image acquisition, lens settings, aperture,focal length, even other things like programed crane data can be inserted in the data stream and then extracted by the RAVE tools- This is all about the future of film making.




gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows
Inside look at the IoHD




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Ramona Howard
Re: Direct to disk capture of SD material
on Jul 11, 2008 at 2:53:21 pm

Gary,

I was trying to keep it as simple as possible and only explain what the standard was. See no marketing garb.....but since you asked, yes RP188 and RP215 allow us to do a variety of very tricky things that others may not. It is all about understanding the standard and pushing it to the limit, I think that it is what the guys in Hollywood (not all physically in LA) intendend :) Tricky bunch, down there......

Add in (sorry can't remember the standard number) also being able to pass metadata down an audio channel and this stuff gets even more confusing yet very interesting. Timecode. keyframes, lens info, etc...it's all metadata and these standards are designed to push more than one.

It is about trying to understand it step by step and to not confuse what the applications can/cannot do, versus what the standards mean. Puts a bad taste in everyones mouth while adding to this crazy confusion (honestly, once you understand all the pieces it really isn't that confusing).

Bottom line guys, FCP is a great editing program but there are lots of other tools in the box that use these standards fully. We are no exception. Like I said tricky bunch.

The HDCAM does support RP188 as I can't think of an HD deck that does not but I have seen many SD decks that don't.

Thanks Gary for the plug. Ha, off to Hollywood today.

Cheers,
Ramona






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