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drift / sync issue with ProRes playback

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Miska Draskoczy
drift / sync issue with ProRes playback
on May 3, 2008 at 9:58:11 pm

Hi,

Getting a weird drift / sync issue with ProRes sequences on an early 2008 mac pro 2.8ghz in FCP 6.0.3, running leopard and kona drivers 5.1 NDD with a kona LHe. If I try to output a ProRes or ProRes HQ sequence to tape (in this case 1080i HD to HDCAM via sdi) the audio and video start off in sync but quickly drift apart to where the video lags the audio by a good 2-3 seconds. If I play back the tape, the audio and video is vastly out of sync and whats more, the video will stutter and hiccup on any slow movements - long crossfades and slow pans/scales on pictures will not be smooth, they will stutter.

Now the strange thing is if I change my sequence settings to dvcpro hd or uncompressed 8-bit, it works fine. Frame accurate sync, no stuttering.

I'm not even trying video at this point, I put some bars and tone in a sequence, 1 sec bars, 4 secs black, repeated 10 times so I can quickly see if audio and video are drifting out of sync as I layoff by monitoring the audio coming from the deck/kona card. all sequences are 1080i 29.97. I'm using the aja fcp sequence presets to make each of these sequences. ProRes still out of sync, 8-bit and dvcpro work fine.

So whats up with ProRes, any ideas why this would only be happening with a certain codec? I'd say maybe its a speed thing, but I have an 8-core 2.8ghz macpro with 12gb of ram and a 1.5tb raid 5 esata external g-raid that can do upwards of 150mb/s. In fact I'm dropping frames on the uncompressed 8-bit sequence at a certain point because the drive can't keep up, but it still stays in sync and never drifts.

would love to figure this out so that I can use ProRes. thanks.

-miska


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: drift / sync issue with ProRes playback
on May 4, 2008 at 7:37:15 pm

is everything fully rendered and do you have the option of dropping frames on ETT turned on in your prefs?

Are you using ETT or are you just crash recording?

Have you mixed down your audio?

Are ALL of your media files (pictures, audio, etc) on your scratch drive or do you have stuff fragmented around your other hard drives on your computer?


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Miska Draskoczy
Re: drift / sync issue with ProRes playback
on May 5, 2008 at 5:03:40 pm

yes everything is rendered and on the same 4-drive raid 5 (can do over 150mb/s). abort on drop frames is ON in prefs (otherwise I can't make a tape master if its going to skip frames) in any case, I'm not getting dropped frame errors, its just falling massively out of sync with no error messages. I'm also at this point not even using media files to do tests, just bars and tone, which should take very little bandwidth to play in ProRes since there is no intraframe movement.

the plot thickens - I did more tests, fiddling with the view->video playback setting:

AJA Kona 1080i29.97 10-bit (1920x1080)
- playing from the timeline (not ETT), external monitor/SDI quickly falls approx 2-3 secs out of sync.
-Using ETT, same thing, quickly goes out of sync by 2-3 secs.

AJA Kona 1080i29.97 8-bit (1920x1080)
- playing from timeline (not ETT), external monitor/SDI DOES stay in sync! (and this isn't even supposed to be the setting for ProRes HQ, right?).
-Using ETT, same thing, quickly goes out of sync, but by a lesser amount, 1-2 secs.

gotta be a setting or driver/config issue somewhere, but can't seem to see what that could be.

-m





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Jeremy Garchow
Re: drift / sync issue with ProRes playback
on May 5, 2008 at 5:59:48 pm

I'd try uninstalling and reinstalling the drivers.

Jeremy


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Miska Draskoczy
Re: drift / sync issue with ProRes playback
on May 5, 2008 at 7:29:54 pm

thanks, tried it again with both the 5.1 NDD drivers and 5.1, still doesn't work.
-m



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: drift / sync issue with ProRes playback
on May 5, 2008 at 7:36:21 pm

Are you sure that your timeline is setup for 10bit rendering and not 8bit? It's curious that 10 bit is busted an 8bit will work. It seems to me that your timeline is not matching your output settings.

Jeremy


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Miska Draskoczy
Re: drift / sync issue with ProRes playback
on May 5, 2008 at 7:42:06 pm

yep, 'render 10-bit material in high-precision YUV' radio button is selected in the video processing tab of the sequence settings. i'm loading the AJA ProRes HQ 1080i29.97 preset to make these sequences, so unless they're misconfigured somehow to begin with, they should match.

-m



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: drift / sync issue with ProRes playback
on May 5, 2008 at 8:01:02 pm

Is it an older 8Core or new one?

Are your PCIe slots configured properly?

It seems to me something is set up wrong. Perhaps try hitting up AJA support and see if they can send you in the right direction.

support at aja dot com.

Jeremy


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Miska Draskoczy
Re: drift / sync issue with ProRes playback
on May 5, 2008 at 8:33:49 pm

its a new mac pro, early 2008, so it doesn't have the PCI slot configuration utility. thats the weird thing, from tracking down what seems the be the same problem that other people were having, they had the older 8-cores and using the PCI slot config util solved it a/v sync issues. But the new macs don't have that util (apparently pci 2.0 doesn't need it) so what to do...

I've been talking to AJA as well, they haven't figured it out yet either. They suggested I exchange cards, which I will do eventually if nothing else works but it seems like since its only happening with one codec that it must be a configuration error.

thanks,
-m



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Andrew Freiband
Re: drift / sync issue with ProRes playback
on May 15, 2008 at 3:54:02 pm

I'm tempted to start a new thread on this, but our similarities are striking enough I wanted to weigh in here - we are also having sync and drift problems playing out through a Kona LHe from a Mac Pro 4GB dual 500 GB SATA RAID. But we have the problem not only within Final Cut, but in any playout through the Kona, including our playlisting/broadcasting software from Softron. We've trouble-shot that software to death, and it seems solid, in addition to other tesimony about Kona drift problems, that's where everything is pointing. We also experience occasional video breakup, with lost frames

We are playing out uniform 1280x720 59.94, and have seen the same issue with ProRes, None, and 8-bit Uncompressed codecs.

Drivers are updated, PCI slot utility (2007 Mac Pro) has been run and optimized, everything else we can think of. We have even attached a blackburst generator to the Kona, with no effect (unfortunately we don't have a Tri Sync genny handy; though in a limited test the same problem was observed playing out NTSC with the blackburst attached). Unfortunately I put a request in with Aja support a week ago and haven't heard anything, and their phone line just cuts off without so much as an answering service.

Any and all help is much much appreciated, this has been a stumper, and frustrating as anything


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Andrew Freiband
Re: drift / sync issue with ProRes playback
on May 15, 2008 at 4:11:49 pm

Just to be fair, I have gotten through to Aja support and we are working on it - I didn't fully take into account the time-zone thing, though I didn't ever hear back on the email front... Still, anyone here with some input on this question will be welcomed with open arms-


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Miska Draskoczy
Re: drift / sync issue with ProRes playback
on May 15, 2008 at 5:55:26 pm

Is it only ProRes thats losing sync, or all codecs? The super weird thing for me is that its only ProRes - uncompressed or dvcprohd work fine. I had to put off troubleshooting with AJA tech support for now because I had to actually, you know, edit :) Unfortunately in dvcprohd until this gets solved. Hopefully I'll have some downtime soon to tear my system apart again. If you find a fix in the meantime, please post here. thanks.

-miska



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Andrew Freiband
Re: drift / sync issue with ProRes playback
on May 15, 2008 at 6:00:41 pm

We've definitely seen it with multiple codecs, not just ProRes. Though there may be a data rate issue involved which might exempt something like DVCPro HD; I would expect to see it with Uncompressed and None, as we have. We're working on it with Aja presently, will definitely report.


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Patrick Troy
Re: drift / sync issue with ProRes playback
on Jun 11, 2008 at 11:44:15 am

we are having the same issue
ProRes drifting out of sync
extremely frustrating its been about 8 hrs of 12 so far trying fixes and workarounds.
Costly with deck and monitor over $500 for the day and still no result
having to make a dvd so client has something at least for tomorrow screener
It seems you guys have had this problem for the last 6 weeks at least and noone's got any relief
how have you been playing out?
unable to at all?
The only difference here is we are on PAL so its 1080i25.
How can Kona let us dangle like this?

heres hoping there's some movement at the station.

cheers
Patrick






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Rich Rubasch
Re: drift / sync issue with ProRes playback
on Jun 12, 2008 at 8:10:19 pm

Hi guys....We discovered the same issue today. Ours has more than sync drift, we are also seeing a sort of judder on playback. We tested the crap out of it with all kinds of source tapes, setting the deck differently internally, easy setups, sequence settings, control panel etc. Here's our findings. DVCProHD worked perfectly. ProRes422 HQ worked just fine. ProRes422 DID NOT KEEP SYNC.

This was ALL 1080i 24p footage.

DVCProHD runs at 14mbps, ProRes HQ runs at about 28 mbps and ProRes runs at about 18 mbps.

2008 Quad Core MacPro
Leopard
QT 7.4.5
Either Kona 5.1 or Kona 5.1 NDD
Kona 3 card with breakout
Panasonic 1200A deck


Only DVCProHD and ProRes HQ got the job done.

Rich Rubasch
Tilt Media



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Patrick Troy
Re: drift / sync issue with ProRes playback
on Jun 13, 2008 at 12:32:48 am

Frustrating as all getup!

We are stuck with a feature on ProRes that we cant playout through the card we have.

Im taking the quicktime to a lab for an emergency playout (hopefully) as we want the highest possible quality to show distributors etc.

As I didnt do any sync tests when we set up the system almost 12 months ago Im wondering if it is endemic to the system or something I have done upgrading FCP, QT, and Kona drivers along the way.

MacPro Dual Quad 5gb RAM
3Tb Sanman RAID
OSX10.4.11 FCP 6.0.3 QT7.4
KONA 3 w 5.1 driver







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Patrick Troy
Re: drift / sync issue with ProRes playback - QUERY
on Jun 13, 2008 at 1:16:49 am

Is it essential to have a sync generator in the chain?
and if so why only with ProRes?



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gary adcock
Re: drift / sync issue with ProRes playback
on Jun 13, 2008 at 2:10:31 pm

[Patrick Troy] "or something I have done upgrading FCP, QT, and Kona drivers along the way. "

that would be my guess.

latest and greatest on the mac usually means that you should have the OS version as updated as the QT and Apps you are using, from your note the QT is not even current for FCP 6.0.3



gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows
Inside look at the IoHD




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Patrick Troy
Re: drift / sync issue with ProRes playback
on Jun 17, 2008 at 11:54:28 pm

Gary

thanks for your post
we still have the issue.
the AJA people are loaning us a Gen 10 to see what effect that has.
Someone suggested trying an IO as it is made specifically for ProRes.
We took the 75gb Quicktime to a bureau to get a playout for the screener.
They had an LHe which worked fine.

Mystery with our quicktime - the player is QT 7.5 but the pref pane says 7.4.
Just followed the software update so not sure ow that occurred or what it means.
regards
Patrick





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Patrick Troy
Re: drift / sync issue with ProRes playback - Solved for us!
on Jun 18, 2008 at 2:04:57 am

Hi there

just got off the phone with Elijah at Digistor in Melbourne Australia
who pinpointed the problem. Thank You.
Kona card in wrong slot
reseated it - ran the Expansion Slot Utility -bingo! - back in sync

I had seen the Expansion Slot Utility mentioned on other threads but as the system was set up by Mac techs I thought it couldnt be set up wrongly. And it seemed to refer to newer Macs.
Lesson - Mac Tech does not equal AJA tech

regards
patrick



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gary adcock
Re: drift / sync issue with ProRes playback
on Jun 13, 2008 at 2:04:30 pm

[Rich Rubasch] "Here's our findings. DVCProHD worked perfectly. ProRes422 HQ worked just fine. ProRes422 DID NOT KEEP SYNC. "

how was the material converted -

I am finding that the Base version of ProRes is best for software conversions- it drops the 8 bit material into the 10bit space without trying to up-sample the content to fill 1024 levels. ( HDMI was the exception here, as the cameras I tested only had 8Bit HDMI signals)

Whereas the HQ version of ProRes is best used for direct capture via Baseband (HDSDI, Component)

gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows
Inside look at the IoHD




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