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Earle Nichol
Kona Settings
on May 1, 2008 at 4:15:56 pm

Hey gang,

I was wondering if anyone could tell me what the rule is for component analogue output settings on the Kona LH. There are 2 settings 1 - COMPONENT(smpte/EBU N10) and 2- COMPONENT (Beta) The picture (SD) seems to be much noisier when we set it to the beta setting(we digitized at Pro Res 422)
I've a looked into this a little bit online and from what I've read the SMPTE/EBU N10 setting is the standard to go by...so what is the "BETA" setting for?

Thanks

Earle


Communication, Communication, Communication!!!
http://www.whiteiron.tv/demo


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Kona Settings
on May 1, 2008 at 4:32:01 pm

[Earle Nichol] "so what is the "BETA" setting for? "

Uhh...Beta. as in SP.


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Earle Nichol
Re: Kona Settings
on May 1, 2008 at 4:44:28 pm

I've been around to long for it to be that easy...are you serious?, because beta decks I believe are based on the SMPTE setting?...thoughts?

Communication, Communication, Communication!!!
http://www.whiteiron.tv/demo


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Kona Settings
on May 1, 2008 at 4:52:13 pm

Yeah, I am serious.

Sony BetaSP has it's own luma/chroma values that differ from SMPTE. Why? Cool factor, of course. OK, maybe not cool factor. I don't know exactly why. Bob Zelin, I'd wager, is a man that knows exactly why. I now invoke, Bob Zelin.

Anyway. If you are laying off to BetaSP, use the Beta setting and also make sure your monitors are setup for Beta color space and double check your deck is too. If not, stick with SMPTE all the way around. Whatever happens, just make sure to stick with one the other and make sure that your monitors are setup to whichever space you decide to stick with. For the record, I use SMPTE for SD (as it's used in HD too).


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Earle Nichol
Re: Kona Settings
on May 1, 2008 at 4:58:36 pm

Hey Jeremy,

That's exactly what I wanted to hear...thanks for the quick response. Makes sense, I just didn't think it was that simple. Appreciate your time. Awesome! Take care.

pearl

Communication, Communication, Communication!!!
http://www.whiteiron.tv/demo


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Chris Borjis
Re: Kona Settings
on May 1, 2008 at 5:20:19 pm


I have come across that and found that while setting up my equipment with test signal bars the "BETA" option must be used
if you want it to match perfectly.

It's a little off if you don't use it, but I doubt it would be enough to get the dub rejected by a station.

They pass through just about everything these days.



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Earle Nichol
Re: Kona Settings
on May 1, 2008 at 5:28:57 pm

I think I'll go with the SMPTE route. All our masters are SD and stations get beta dubs. We've never had a complaint, so we must be doing ok. I just wanted to see what that setting was meant for. Thanks to you guys.

pearl

Communication, Communication, Communication!!!
http://www.whiteiron.tv/demo


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Bob Zelin
Re: Kona Settings - N10
on May 1, 2008 at 7:17:54 pm

No one uses SMPTE N10, and if you choose SMPTE N10, you will be selecting the wrong levels. Sony Beta VTR's use Sony Beta levels. Sony could not give a crap what the SMPTE committee creates, and never listens to them (I wouldn't either - after the fiasco with SMPTE 259M, and all the incompatibility with analog levels from the SMPTE 170A standard).

SMPTE N10 was an analog component video standard that was created in hopes of creating standardization. The ONLY product you will see SMPTE N10 used on is on the output of waveform monitors from Tektronix, and Leader Instruments - on their PIX MON output. When you put an SDI signal into a Tektronix WFM-601a (or Leader LV5100D), the waveform montior provides a decoded analog component signal that conforms to the SMPTE N10 standard. Back in the stone age (5 years ago),
no one owned SDI monitors, and everyone had analog component monitors (and composite). In products like the Sony PVM-20M4U, there were setup menus, that would allow you to select the input type, and SMPTE N10 was one of the choices (but of course, everyone choose Beta anyway, since everyone used Beta VTR's at the time).

If you google SMPTE N10, you won't even find any information on N10. SMPTE, like AVID Techology, does not give out information freely, and wants you to pay for it. So you can't google to see the SMPTE reports. So everyone does what they think is right, and since Sony defaults to Sony Beta for everything analog component, everyone uses SONY BETA, and not SMPTE N10.

Let me assure you that no one at the TV stations you are dealing with even has any SMPTE reports or journals there. They couldnt' tell you the difference between SMPTE 292M, and SMPTE 259M if their life depended on it. And these are the people that QC your tapes.

Choose Beta in your settings. End of story. Dissolve the SMPTE committee. Look at the current fiasco of HD standards. What purpose does the SMPTE committee even serve in the United States ?????

Bob Zelin




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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Kona Settings - N10
on May 1, 2008 at 7:22:30 pm

:)


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Warren Eig
Re: Kona Settings - N10
on May 1, 2008 at 9:25:45 pm

Don't hold back, Bob.

Tell us how you really feel. : )

Warren

Warren Eig

O 310-470-0905


email: warren@babyboompictures.com

website: http://www.babyboompictures.com


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Eran Hayden
Kona Settings for Component Digitizing
on Jun 6, 2008 at 6:44:22 pm

i had a similar question, but in regards to input settings for capture from a sony beta SP deck with analog component outputs. we have our systems standardized to use the "SMPTE/EBU N10" setting for component capture, however i've noticed that this setting results in higher color saturation levels than the "beta" setting does.

the "beta" setting appears more natural and more closely resembles the picture i see when i view the beta SP composite output signal on my client monitor. footage digitized at the "Beta" setting also matches better when intercut with footage captured from the same Beta SP source tape(s) on a Sony digibeta deck using SDI input to the Kona card.


i guess a little extra color saturation isn't necessarily a bad thing for offline edits (we re-capture via SDI for on-line, anyway) but the skin tones can sometimes look a little orange and i have gotten notes to color correct (lower saturation) when interview bites captured at SDI end up nearby bites captured at the component "SMPTE/EBU N10" setting.


thoughts or suggestions anyone?



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Kona Settings for Component Digitizing
on Jun 9, 2008 at 2:53:47 pm

[Eran Hayden] "thoughts or suggestions anyone?"

If working with BetaSP sources, it's best to capture with BetaSP color. It doesn't mean you have to output BetaSP, but you should at least capture it BetaSP.

When you capture SDI, how do you capture (ie from what deck)?


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Dan Powers
Re: Kona Settings for Component Digitizing
on Feb 24, 2010 at 12:13:02 am

The problem with using SMPTE EBU N10 is that when you calibrate and record with it, you are fine in your world but take that beta dub to the station and your chroma levels are going to be really low. You would be really lucky if you find a master control tape op that actually checks the levels on scope. They leave the deck in preset and dont check a waveform or vector scope and your spot is going to air with low chroma,

Dan Powers
P3 Media
Austin, TX


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