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Backup & Archival Plan--eSATA, SAS, & BOB.

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Robert Broussard
Backup & Archival Plan--eSATA, SAS, & BOB.
on Feb 4, 2008 at 9:49:25 pm

Okay so the title was intended as an attention-getter--Hello! :)

I have a need for a better backup system for the office (1 Mac Pro and 1 MacBook Pro) locally that can also be used to rotate media off-site. At the moment, I am using Retrospect & Time Machine on one of my internal Mac Pro drives and a GTech 500GB FW800 external drive which is sometimes off-site. My immediate need is to backup: pictures, music, databases, virtual machines, AppleTV Movies, and other documents which is about 1TB. I'm slowly ripping my DVD collection for use via AppleTV and I plan to start scanning ALL of my old photographs and negatives.... so my movie, music and photo library (Aperture) will grow rapidly. Also, this backup system could possibly allow me to archive FCP projects and media.

Anyway, I obviously need to backup with greater regularity, redundancy and security and I know I need a better system in place to accomplish that. At the moment, I lack the ability to easily move data off-site and I could use more space that is dedicated for backups. For backups I actually prefer tape (LTO-3 or LTO-4) or backup files that are NOT Finder readable. That way you will never get confused and edit the backup and not the original which would cause you to lose your changes when the backup set is recycled.

Cost Effective Media: I have not done an exhaustive analysis; yet, it seems that tape is about the same as a HD (hard-drive) based solution and that tape seems to be slower performing and relatively low-density native capacity (without compression) which would require handling many tapes.

What HD backup system? Assuming that an HD-based solution is best--what enclosure system? I would like at least two backup HD volumes (if not 4 or 5) to be online at any one time. Call the local drives (or collections of drives) A and B. Every night either BackupSet A or B is used to backup incrementally (where prior versions of files are retained) and weekly Backup Volume C (previously off-site) can be exchanged for Backup A--now A is moved off-site. I guess there should be two off-site volumes to avoid EVER having all backups in one area such as during the drive swap. Also, I like the one cable idea as afforded by port multiplication and some units have FireWire where that single cable can reference ALL of the drives in the external enclosure. For the moment, I would probably just use FW400 or 800 connectivity if the box supported such flexibility and later I would want the option of using eSATA or SAS, etc... If I started using SATA now, I would hope that one interface card could support my backup enclosure and an external RAID. Is that possible now?

Sonnet has a nice enclosure such as the: FusionD400Q http://www.sonnettech.com/product/fusion400quad.html I like that this model has: flexible interface options (FW800/400; USB2l eSATA) that only requires one cable and that it has an internal power supply.... It's pricey and may be over-kill for just a backup or archival enclosure. Also, the trays are expensive compared to others. And of course there are tray-less designs from companies like Wiebetech.

Another Sonnet, the D500P http://www.sonnettech.com/product/fusiond500p.html
This one is eSATA only.

Firmtek has:
SeriTek/2EN2 http://www.firmtek.com/seritek/seritek-2en2/
SeriTek/5PM http://www.firmtek.com/seritek/seritek-5pm/

Wiebetech has:
RTX400 http://www.wiebetech.com/products/RTX400.php
RTX100 http://www.wiebetech.com/products/RTX100.php

So, what are you using for backup or archival?

BTW: this backup plan could also be applied to Archival of projects as well (even though disk drives are not expected to be as reliable as tape during long periods of inactivity which requires periodically mounting the drive). I would make more than one copy and store them in different places if failure is not an option... With all of the tapeless acquisition, this is a big challenge to archive the media reliably. I don't want to have a bunch of cheap FireWire drives all over the place... I would rather use the drive mechanism themselves and store that in box on the shelf, etc. This should also be more cost effective.

Definitions:

Backup: a copy of the original, to be used to restore the original if necessary.
Archival: moving the original to a long-term external storage medium.

So, I'm hoping that your response will help me to make a wise decision about this need so I can stop thinking about it so that I can begin to enjoy benefits of such a system. So, Bob, what do you recommend?

Thanks

Robert



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Bob Zelin
Re: Backup & Archival Plan--eSATA, SAS, & BOB.
on Feb 5, 2008 at 1:53:57 am

what do I recommend - these are all teriffic products. SATA has become generic. Sonnet, Maxx Digital, Cal Digit, Firmtek, Dulce all make great products. All of these products are similar priced, if you look at size and features. How big are your drives, do you get RAID 0 or RAID 5, or are you using individual drives. Remember, no matter who you choose, you are sticking your data on Hitachi or Seagate drives, and this is who is responsible - not these other companies !

If you want to spend as little as possible, a web search will tell you who is the cheapest.

Bob Zelin




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Robert Broussard
Re: Backup & Archival Plan--eSATA, SAS, & BOB.
on Feb 5, 2008 at 5:40:47 am

Bob,

Many of the multi-bay external enclosures are designed for RAID setups; however my desire for a multi-bay enclosure for backup/archive may never be setup for RAID functionality (although the flexibility of different ports and the ability to raid is a plus). Does a particular enclosure standout as a backup archival device? Do you like any of the tray-less enclosures?

If I can afford the time to restore a backup if a single drive failed, is there a need to have a protected (Raid5) raid? I guess you are protected by some failures up to the minute--meaning that last night's backup may be several hours old and that could make a difference. If you are just doing say DV--does it help to have a drive setup that's much faster than it needs to be? For example, Biscardi's favorite RAID system right now is sweet but over-kill for my immediate needs.... but if I had that, would basic things like: Aperture library usage and FCP with uncompressed SD and lighter uses benefit from this extravagance?

I guess I could use independent drives in my Mac Pro (via software or hardware raid) and use removable hard drives (via an external enclosure) for local and off-site backup--but I see the benefits of the external RAID... Okay, now I can see having the external RAID enclosure and the backup/archival enclosure.

Let's suppose that we use eSATA or SAS to connect this enclosure to the MacPro, I assume that we'll want to use a single card that can service both a great RAID solution and the backup/archival enclosure. Let's assume for the moment that FireWire is not available on the backup enclosure or that you wanted the SATA speed. Does a particular pair of enclosures standout where one is the backup for the RAID and other machines and the other is a RAID where all of your most important files are located?

Come to think of it, do you not use a raid protected setup for non-media files...? Not for the performance but for the added protection? Just a thought.

Thanks,

Robert





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Bob Zelin
Re: Backup & Archival Plan--eSATA, SAS, & BOB.
on Feb 5, 2008 at 11:09:33 pm

Robert -
I am not going to answer any more of your questions until you tell me how much money you would like to spend on this product.

Bob Zelin




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Robert Broussard
Re: Backup & Archival Plan--eSATA, SAS, & BOB.
on Feb 6, 2008 at 6:53:44 am

[Bob Zelin] "I am not going to answer any more of your questions until you tell me how much money you would like to spend on this product.
"


Bob, okay, let me think out loud here... On the backup portion, It might be something like this:

$700 External 5-bay PM enclosure w/eSATA card. Something like: <http://firmtek.stores.yahoo.net/sata5pm2se4.html>

$1560 Hitachi 1GB Drives (6). Two backup sets of two drives each with at least one set (2 drives) off-site. Or, I could use my existing 500GB drives from my Mac Pro and replace with 1TB drives... I would have one bay on the enclosure not part of the backup sets... Or, with 500GB drives we could start with $960 (6 * 160) worth of media.

$40 Extra Trays (2)

$40 Padded carrying cases for the off-site drives...

$40 Misc.

So, for the backup alone we are looking at about $2,380 (6TB) or $1,780 with 3TBs of backup storage.

Now, using a hardware RAID-5 capable box like a 2TB Sonnet Fusion (D400RAID) that will be another $3,000 or so. <http://www.sonnettech.com/product/fusiond400raid.html>

Now, these prices include two SATA cards.... I would hope to use just one. Also, if I wanted to get by cheaply, I don't absolutely need the RAID 5 media enclosure... I could use my internal Mac Pro drives. Right now I NEED backup. And, the backup could be cheaper too.... I could get a one or two bay enclosure. I wanted 4 so that I would not have to fool with the backup as much by having two large backup sets online at all times which should allow me to go a full week without having to swap drives.

With this strategy, I will spend roughly $1,700 to $2,300 on backup (which could be much less in a pinch) and another few thousand (say about $2,700) on a protected, RAID-5, SAS (?) media drive... So, I could easily spend $5k with this approach. As you've cautioned, I don't want to over-buy in any one area. Some of what I want is a luxury and some of it--such as it pertains to off-site backups--is not something that can be avoided.

Anyway, I appreciate your taking the time to comment.

Thanks,

Robert





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Bob Zelin
Re: Backup & Archival Plan--eSATA, SAS, & BOB.
on Feb 6, 2008 at 9:56:40 pm

REPLY - I will respond below, but all I can say is GOOD LUCK. An empty port multipler 5 bay box from a good company is around $500, and a good eSATA card is about $289 - this is without drives. And this is either JBOD or RAID 0 (not RAID 5). So if you find some cheapo mail order stuff, I wish you luck with it. The prices I listed are for companies like Sonnet, Cal Digit, Firmtek, Dulce, Maxx Digital, etc.



$700 External 5-bay PM enclosure w/eSATA card. Something like:
$1560 Hitachi 1GB Drives (6). Two backup sets of two drives each with at least one set (2 drives) off-site. Or, I could use my existing 500GB drives from my Mac Pro and replace with 1TB drives... I would have one bay on the enclosure not part of the backup sets... Or, with 500GB drives we could start with $960 (6 * 160) worth of media.
$40 Extra Trays (2)
$40 Padded carrying cases for the off-site drives...
$40 Misc.
So, for the backup alone we are looking at about $2,380 (6TB) or $1,780 with 3TBs of backup storage.
Now, using a hardware RAID-5 capable box like a 2TB Sonnet Fusion (D400RAID) that will be another $3,000 or so.


REPLY - the 2TB Sonnet D400RAID will become about 1.5TB of storage after the RAID 5 group is created. The Sonnet is an excellent product.


Now, these prices include two SATA cards.... I would hope to use just one.

REPLY - what are you talking about, nothing includes 2 SATA cards. And a RAID 5 SAS/SATA card is expensive, from any of the companies.



Also, if I wanted to get by cheaply, I don't absolutely need the RAID 5 media enclosure... I could use my internal Mac Pro drives. Right now I NEED backup. And, the backup could be cheaper too.... I could get a one or two bay enclosure. I wanted 4 so that I would not have to fool with the backup as much by having two large backup sets online at all times which should allow me to go a full week without having to swap drives.

With this strategy, I will spend roughly $1,700 to $2,300 on backup (which could be much less in a pinch) and another few thousand (say about $2,700) on a protected, RAID-5, SAS (?) media drive... So, I could easily spend $5k with this approach. As you've cautioned, I don't want to over-buy in any one area. Some of what I want is a luxury and some of it--such as it pertains to off-site backups--is not something that can be avoided

REPLY -
your decision will be based solely on how much (or how little) you want to spend. I have no suggestions for you. If labor is no big deal to you, buy individual 1TB SATA drives, stick them in your MAC pro, without buying anything else, and yank them out when you fill them up. This is the cheapest solution.

This post reflects most of my "smart ass comments" - as the usual question is (no matter what the actual subject) - WHAT IS THE LEAST AMOUNT OF MONEY I CAN SPEND - do you hear this Ramona ?????

bob Zelin




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Ramona Howard
Re: Backup & Archival Plan--eSATA, SAS, & BOB.
on Feb 6, 2008 at 10:15:18 pm

I'm with you on this Bob. Wow.

Come on, are we talking a professional solution that will insure your data will be protected or some one shopping at Frys here?

Backup and archival usually means you want to keep the stuff for awhile and not take the chance by physically pulling drives out of your Mac Pro. In otherwords you loose this stuff, it usually hurts.

We do provide dual SATA boards in RaveHD and also with the Bravo, but for a single 6/8 bay solution it isn't feasible. Besides we are not talking Apples to Apples with the comparison of the products either.

If you simply want a solution to store data, go with Bobs recommendation if your looking for an all in one, again email me off list and I can give you some details BUT I can guarantee you it won't be at the Frys price point. To do this in a professional manner one can not use $1.99 hard drives and $3.00 controllers, that would be suicide. Some things you just should not cut corners on.

Cheers,
Ramona



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Robert Broussard
Re: Backup & Archival Plan--eSATA, SAS, & BOB.
on Feb 7, 2008 at 2:56:33 am

[Ramona Howard] " I can guarantee you it won't be at the Frys price point. To do this in a professional manner one can not use $1.99 hard drives and $3.00 controllers, that would be suicide. Some things you just should not cut corners on. "

Ramona, where did you get the idea that I wanted "the Frys price point"? If you look at my previous posts, you will understand my position. I think my my desire to spend about $3,000 to backup 1 TB of data is bordering on over-kill; yet, this data is important to me. Why $3k, because of budget or a predetermined desire to spend that amount? NO! It's $3k because one of the high-quality manufacturers seem to have an elegant solution. It's the product with the industry merit that gets my attention and my money.

So, forget about the cheapest solution--I've never taken the cheapest or easiest route.

Thanks,

Robert



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Ramona Howard
Re: Backup & Archival Plan--eSATA, SAS, & BOB.
on Feb 7, 2008 at 3:39:07 am

Robert,

I must be reading the post entirely wrong....

It's not the $3k for just the backup unit, that's reasonable, it's everything else you expect to get out of it for that price.

Just remember if you have 1TB of data that needs backing up, you need more than 1TB to do it in Raid, throw in the fact you want to possibly hot swap these out to double as an archival solution and all with using a cheap controller. Good luck with that. There is a slew of implications you may not be considering with that scenario.

Bob and I share the same passion when someone tackles an important issue (such as this one) with budget first and answers to a real solution second. First ask what solutions do it already and work your way down, you will find it easier to get the answers you need and or find out how difficult it may be to build your own, if you can get the answers to do it.

The Frys comment comes into play because it appears your determined to Frankenstein a solution together because it seems so easy to do with off the shelf components (again I say appears as this may not be your intentions). A mistake many make. Let me tell you, that's one thing it isn't (easy). Be prepared to become a hardware expert if this is a route you take :)

Again, if you simply need a backup solution many manufactures here will work great. Some of our backup units are Medea Arrays, they work great.

Best of luck on whatever you choose,
Ramona



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Robert Broussard
Re: Backup & Archival Plan--eSATA, SAS, & BOB.
on Feb 7, 2008 at 5:14:17 am

[Ramona Howard] "I must be reading the post entirely wrong....
"


Yes, it's now obvious that you have. Gosh, I carefully worded my posts to avoid any confusion; yet, to no avail.... ouch!

[Ramona Howard] "It's not the $3k for just the backup unit, that's reasonable, it's everything else you expect to get out of it for that price.

Just remember if you have 1TB of data that needs backing up, you need more than 1TB to do it in Raid, throw in the fact you want to possibly hot swap these out to double as an archival solution and all with using a cheap controller. Good luck with that. There is a slew of implications you may not be considering with that scenario. "


Ramona, you missed my point entirely. As I mentioned, I plan to use a dedicated multi-drive enclosure (sans RAID) specifically and exclusively for backup/archive. Also, I plan to use up to 6 TB of storage to give me an on-site redundancy and off-site backups. Also, I never intended, implied or, stated that I wanted to use a cheap controller. In fact, I mentioned controllers from two companies that Bob considers "terrific products". Where are you getting this El-Cheapo-Frys-Mentality from?

[Ramona Howard] "Bob and I share the same passion when someone tackles an important issue (such as this one) with budget first and answers to a real solution second. First ask what solutions do it already and work your way down, you will find it easier to get the answers you need and or find out how difficult it may be to build your own, if you can get the answers to do it. "

Ramona, I have never: mentioned, implied, or stated that budget was first. Actually, I started by presenting the situation and asking for a recommended solution--independent of budget. Then, Bob wanted to know "how much money [I] would like to spend... So, I speculated about the possibilities... thought out loud so he could understand my quest for a great solution... I gave some numbers and showed the thought process and the calculations.... clearly this possible solution was just to plug some possible numbers in and to answer Bob's question. Also, this should have clarified (if there had been any doubts) that I wanted to identify a great solution and/or strategy independent of the costs.

[Ramona Howard] "The Frys comment comes into play because it appears your determined to Frankenstein a solution together because it seems so easy to do with off the shelf components...

Ramona, I've articulated my situation and possible solutions very clearly. What did I say that you interpret as my being determined to, "Frankenstein a solution together because it seems so easy to do with off the shelf components..."???

Thanks,

Robert



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Ramona Howard
Re: Backup & Archival Plan--eSATA, SAS, & BOB.
on Feb 7, 2008 at 5:04:25 pm

I guess it was that whole shopping list of parts, prices and the portable cases and such that thru me off.

Best of luck,
Ramona

Bob, will share the Bravo stuff soon, it will make your hair stand up even more :)





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Robert Broussard
Re: Backup & Archival Plan--eSATA, SAS, & BOB.
on Feb 8, 2008 at 6:40:03 am

[Ramona Howard] "I guess it was that whole shopping list of parts, prices and the portable cases and such that thru me off. "

Parts?

:)

R



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Rich Campbell
Re: Backup & Archival Plan--eSATA, SAS, & BOB.
on Feb 8, 2008 at 4:32:53 pm

Hi,
As mentioned, there are many storage solutions for backing up data. As Medea storage arrays had accomodated these needs in the past, the same local storage arrays are available from AVID Technology at the same great price with the same great support.

Rich Campbell
AVID Technology, Inc.
Technical Support
Video/Storage Division
805-584-8743
richard_campbell@avid.com





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Robert Broussard
Re: Backup & Archival Plan--eSATA, SAS, & BOB.
on Feb 7, 2008 at 2:44:29 am

[Bob Zelin] "REPLY - I will respond below, but all I can say is GOOD LUCK. An empty port multipler 5 bay box from a good company is around $500, and a good eSATA card is about $289 - this is without drives."

Good Luck? As it happens my idea for a 5-bay PM enclosure and SATA card are in line with your recommendations--right?

[Bob Zelin] "So if you find some cheapo mail order stuff, I wish you luck with it. The prices I listed are for companies like Sonnet, Cal Digit, Firmtek, Dulce, Maxx Digital, etc. "

Bob, I've never suggested that I was trying to avoid a quality solution--that's why I've sought your advice. As you can see from my previous posts, I'm looking at quality manufacturers like: FirmTek and Sonnet, etc... I don't want the "cheapo mail order stuff". Where did you get that idea?

[Bob Zelin] "REPLY - what are you talking about, nothing includes 2 SATA cards. And a RAID 5 SAS/SATA card is expensive, from any of the companies. "

The Firmtek and the Sonnet hardware mentioned are both bundled with their own PCIe card... I mentioned this only to clarify; yet, this only seemed to have increased the confusion. I would hope that one card could service two external enclosures--yes? Is their a RAID 5 card (or other recommended hardware raid controller) that can also service my backup/archive enclosure? Or, would you use two cards?

[Bob Zelin] "REPLY -
your decision will be based solely on how much (or how little) you want to spend. I have no suggestions for you. If labor is no big deal to you, buy individual 1TB SATA drives, stick them in your MAC pro, without buying anything else, and yank them out when you fill them up. This is the cheapest solution. "


Bob, as you know, I'm seeking the best solution for me which will certainly NOT be the cheapest. Even if I wanted to spend $10,000 the best solution for backup might be implemented for less than $3,000--so, I don't agree with the comment, "your decision will be based solely on how much (or how little) you want to spend"--that's crazy talk. :)

[Bob Zelin] "This post reflects most of my "smart ass comments" - as the usual question is (no matter what the actual subject) - WHAT IS THE LEAST AMOUNT OF MONEY I CAN SPEND - do you hear this Ramona ????? "

Well I knew not to go to you or any other professional, with what's the LEAST I CAN SPEND. Yet, I think it makes perfect sense to identify a solution that is effective and that is not more expensive than it has to be. For example, I need to address my current needs--not those too far into the future-- because all of this stuff will be antiquated in 2-3 years anyway--right?

Bob, you asked my how much I wanted to spend and I took my time giving you a detailed answer. I think I've articulated my needs very clearly. If you have some solid advice on this matter, I would love to hear it.

What do you recommend to satisfy my backup and/or archival need? What are your thoughts about the new tray-less enclosures?

What media drive array? Can SD media (and/or Aperture Libraries) benefit from the speed of a RAID intended for HD? If I don't need the speed, what level of protection do you recommend for important assets such as photos and videos and music, etc? Is RAID 3 okay or do you recommend going with RAID 5? based on my needs as described in this post and the ones before this, does a particular external RAID enclosure come to mind? I need at least 1 TB of useable space for now.

Thanks,

Robert



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Bob Zelin
Re: Backup & Archival Plan--eSATA, SAS, & BOB.
on Feb 7, 2008 at 10:23:53 pm

Robert -
you have received many answers here. There are simple solutions, you simply take your credit card, and buy a solution. There are lots of companies that are advertising right on this forum, that can sell you exactly what you want.
You can go to the http://www.bhphotovideo.com website to get a quick idea of what prices are for these products. RAID 5 will cost you more money than RAID 0. And any RAID 0 product can be used as a JBOD if you want to use single drives. All the port multipler cards can hookup to 4 SATA chassis, for a total of 20 seperate drives. You can do any combination that you like.

All of these products work -
Dulce Systems
Maxx Digital
Cal Digit
Firmtek
Sonnet Technologies
G-Tech
and of course, SpectSoft, but this is out of your price range.

If you simply list your company phone # here on this forum, you will be flooded by companies calling you to sell you their product.

Bob Zelin




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Robert Broussard
Re: Backup & Archival Plan--eSATA, SAS, & BOB.
on Feb 8, 2008 at 3:21:52 am

[Bob Zelin] "you have received many answers here. There are simple solutions, you simply take your credit card, and buy a solution. There are lots of companies that are advertising right on this forum, that can sell you exactly what you want. "

Bob, while I appreciate your response, I'm surprised and disappointed that my direct questions (that were posed more than once) have gone unanswered and that a healthy discussion that involved multiple solutions where one or two are compelling... did not arise. I was hoping to learn something that I did not already know. I was hoping that you would unleash your wisdom in this area to suggest the best solution. Much of what I received was a confusing rant that had nothing to do with what I said..... it was like mistaken identity or something.

Okay, I will try a few simple questions:

1) Have you had any experience with the new tray-less enclosures? Thoughts?

2) Is their a clear benefit for a RAID 5 rig to be capable of HD Uncompressed performance when my current need is: SD video (assume uncompressed), Aperture library, etc...?

3) Can I use a single SATA II/SAS card to support 2 enclosures (1 backup & 1 media)? Assume that the backup drive is a PM SATA enclosure (4-5 bays) and that the media drive is a RAID 5 protected. I assume that I can since the ATTO ExpressSAS R380 seems to state such functionality.

4) What are your clients using for media backup? I know we normally don't have to backup very much media but with the advent of tape-less workflows--what are your P2 clients using for backup/archival? What's the strategy?

Thanks,

Robert





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Joe Murray
Re: Backup & Archival Plan--eSATA, SAS, & BOB.
on Feb 8, 2008 at 4:33:13 am

Robert,

Here's what we do, for whatever it's worth...

Backup: daily backup of projects drive to an external Wiebetech trayless enclosure with a 500 gig drive (projects drive means anything we can not recapture from tape or from a P2 project media backup drive from the shoot). We use Super Duper software which is adequate for this.

Archive: Quantum LTO3A, which is ethernet connectable and can be seen as a network storage device by any computer on the network. An ftp client is used to drag and drop each finished, consolidated project to the drive. The drive's a bit finicky at the moment but its record speeds approach 70 megabytes per second and a 400 gigabyte cartridge is about $50. We store these in a FireKing fire-resistant lateral filing cabinet, but the cartridges could just as easily be moved offsite. Disk Library software is used to create and maintain a searchable database of each cartridge on a central computer in the machine room.

Doesn't sound like you need HD capable storage at the moment, so you might as well wait and let prices continue to get better, and buy when you really need it.

Hope this is helpful in some way-





Joe Murray
Edit at Joe's
Charlotte, NC


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Robert Broussard
Re: Backup & Archival Plan--eSATA, SAS, & BOB.
on Feb 8, 2008 at 6:36:32 am

[Joe Murray] "Backup: daily backup of projects drive to an external Wiebetech trayless enclosure with a 500 gig drive"

Hi Joe! :)

Do you use the singe-bay or the 4-bay? How do you like the tray-less enclosures? What interface connects this RTX box to your Mac? Do you rotate backups or have more than one backup? What are you backing up, I assume it's a RAID o some kind--yes?

When you archive, do you have more than one copy of the media before erasing the RAID? What Disk Library software do you use.

[Joe Murray] "Doesn't sound like you need HD capable storage at the moment, so you might as well wait and let prices continue to get better, and buy when you really need it.
"


Yes, I could do that; but, I think that I could benefit from a media drive that is protected via RAID 3 or RAID 5 or some other RAID. Of course I will still perform daily backups that get rotated off-site. So, are you thinking that I would benefit very little with a fast (much faster than required) drive setup--such as HD capable with an SD workflow?

Sorry for so many questions. Yes, your comments are very helpful.

Thanks,

Robert





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Joe Murray
Re: Backup & Archival Plan--eSATA, SAS, & BOB.
on Feb 9, 2008 at 3:13:41 am

[Robert Broussard] "Do you use the singe-bay or the 4-bay? How do you like the tray-less enclosures? What interface connects this RTX box to your Mac? Do you rotate backups or have more than one backup? What are you backing up, I assume it's a RAID o some kind--yes?

ANSWER: I have a Caldigit HDPro RAID 5 4 Terabyte unit that serves as the main media drive. I do not back this up, trusting that if a drive fails I will be able to rebuild data by replacing the drive. The Wiebetech unit I use is the single-bay model and I connect with firewire (USB on our PCs) and use this only to back up the Projects drive on each computer, which houses project files like Final Cut Pro and After Effects project files, Photoshop & Illustrator files, basically anything that can not either be recaptured from tape or rerendered from a graphics projoect file. I figure that with any Final Cut project, the project file itself will give me all the information to recapture a project from tape, which is another reason why I do not back up the Caldigit RAID. I use Super Duper to back up the Projects drive (an internal drive but not the one I boot from) and run this backup every evening.

Q: When you archive, do you have more than one copy of the media before erasing the RAID? What Disk Library software do you use.

ANSWER: I only keep one archive of the project. I do recommend to all clients that they have two final masters, one kept at my office and one at theirs. Many of the projects we do are commercials or short form communication pieces and have a fairly short shelf life of a year or so - and they expect that over time formats will change and older projects may eventually become less than useful for future updates.

Q: So, are you thinking that I would benefit very little with a fast (much faster than required) drive setup--such as HD capable with an SD workflow?"


ANSWER: The amount of benefit you derive from a faster array depends on the kinds of work you do. Fast drives speed up everything...searching the Caldigit RAID for a wayward file is lightning fast compared to searching one of the internal drives. And if you use Final Cut Pro it will create a realtime profile of your system that will allow you to have more realtime layers the faster your drives are. Of course FCP's version of multiple layers can look really bad sometimes, but that's a different subject.

It sounds like you require a much more robust backup process than I do. Good luck with your solution.



Joe Murray
Edit at Joe's
Charlotte, NC


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Robert Broussard
Re: Backup & Archival Plan--eSATA, SAS, & BOB.
on Feb 9, 2008 at 3:43:33 am

[Joe Murray] "It sounds like you require a much more robust backup process than I do. Good luck with your solution. "

Joe & Bob & Ramona, thanks for the replies. Bob, I will email you privately--thanks for the offer.

Regards,

Robert





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Bob Zelin
Re: Backup & Archival Plan--eSATA, SAS, & BOB.
on Feb 9, 2008 at 12:29:49 am

here are my answers to your questions.
You can contact me privately at maxavid@cfl.rr.com, and give me your phone #, and I will be happy to explain everything to you. You will wind up buying something from someone - anyone, or you will be punished -


1) Have you had any experience with the new tray-less enclosures? Thoughts?

REPLY - stop it. Just stop it. Enough nonsense questions.

2) Is their a clear benefit for a RAID 5 rig to be capable of HD Uncompressed performance when my current need is: SD video (assume uncompressed), Aperture library, etc...?

REPLY - is there a clear benefit of RAID 5 (or RAID 3 or RAID 6) - of COURSE there is - if you use a JBOD or RAID 0, and the drive dies, you lose all your media. RAID 5 will protect you from a failed drive (so will RAID 3 and RAID 6, and if you want to know the differences, you will email me privately). There are no CHEAPER RAID 5 arrays for SD video only. All the SATA RAID 5 arrays are fast enough to do anything, and you won't save money (nor can you find a cheaper RAID 5 solution) if you "only" need SD backup.


3) Can I use a single SATA II/SAS card to support 2 enclosures (1 backup & 1 media)? Assume that the backup drive is a PM SATA enclosure (4-5 bays) and that the media drive is a RAID 5 protected. I assume that I can since the ATTO ExpressSAS R380 seems to state such functionality.

REPLY - YES YES YES. Products from Sonnet, ATTO, Maxx Digital, Dulce Systems have TWO ports on them, so you can hook up 2 4 bay chassis, and get RAID 5 protection on both of them. If you want to spend LESS MONEY, you can get conventional port multipler cards from Sonnet, Cal Digit, Firmtek, Dulce, etc. and have up to FOUR 5 bay chassis (for a total of 20 drives). These are NOT RAID 5 protected. The only port multipler card that does RAID 5 is the Highpoint Technology RocketRAID 2314 card. This card is MUCH more complicated to use than the newer RAID 5 SAS SATA cards, but it costs less money. Email me for for info.


4) What are your clients using for media backup? I know we normally don't have to backup very much media but with the advent of tape-less workflows--what are your P2 clients using for backup/archival? What's the strategy?

REPLY - P2 clients backup to FW800 in the field (typically), and then transfer to SATA to actually work. I try to encourage new clients to get SATA for the field, but most want to use cheaper FW800 drives with no Slot 34 adaptors for their MacBook Pros.

The bottom line here is that RAID 0 will be cheaper, and RAID 5 will be better and safer (but more expensive). If you are willing to suffer (education wise), you can use the RocketRAID 2314 card and get RAID 5 in a port multipler chassis, but most people want things to be VERY EASY, and this solution is not very easy. If you want mindless "just plug it in and go" - you will use a conventional port multipler card for JBOD or RAID 0, or the newer RAID 5 SAS/SATA soltuions from Dulce, Cal Digit, Sonnet, etc.

I know the CHEAPEST way to do all of these. Simply email me.

Bob Zelin




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Ramona Howard
Re: Backup & Archival Plan--eSATA, SAS, & BOB.
on Feb 5, 2008 at 6:15:44 pm

Robert,

We have a new product emerging at NAB called the Bravo, it may be worth taking a look at as it tackles both of these needs.

Here is the little bit of info we have put out but we really are not putting any real details out yet. Please fell free to email me off list and I will give you what you need as there is much more to the product than what we show here.

http://www.spectsoft.com/RaveManual-Products-RaveHD-Bravo.html

Cheers,
Ramona
ramona@spectsoft.com




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