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Dual HD-SDI in to a Kona 3, from two XDCAM EX1's, for on set capture/playback/edit

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Michael Pierre
Dual HD-SDI in to a Kona 3, from two XDCAM EX1's, for on set capture/playback/edit
on Jan 27, 2008 at 8:09:25 pm

Curious, has anyone done something similar to the below scenario. Will this work ?

I've got a shoot coming up and I'm considering the XDCAM EX1.

The director has asked if it's possible to do a quick assembly on set.

Is it possible to bring two simultaneous streams of XDCAM EX1 HD-SD1 into Final Cut Pro via a Kona 3 card (capturing as DVCPRO-HD ) ? I've got a 5 bay esata raid by KONA (fast enough)?

The director wants:

1. Instant playback (We should be able to get this directly from FCP bin after capture, right?)

2. Rough assembly of two cameras within a couple minutes of the footage being shot.

Also, a little off subject... but I'm wondering if I can record media to the EX1's express cards WHILE recording to disk?

thanks : )

Michael


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Dual HD-SDI in to a Kona 3, from two XDCAM EX1's, for on set capture/playback/edit
on Jan 27, 2008 at 10:36:34 pm

[Michael Pierre] "Is it possible to bring two simultaneous streams of XDCAM EX1 HD-SD1 into Final Cut Pro via a Kona 3 card (capturing as DVCPRO-HD ) ? I've got a 5 bay esata raid by KONA (fast enough)?"

Not in its current iteration, no.

[Michael Pierre] "1. Instant playback (We should be able to get this directly from FCP bin after capture, right?) "

From one camera, yes.

[Michael Pierre] ". Rough assembly of two cameras within a couple minutes of the footage being shot. "

You could record one of them via FCP and transfer the card of the other and assemble that way.

[Michael Pierre] "Also, a little off subject... but I'm wondering if I can record media to the EX1's express cards WHILE recording to disk? "

Yes.


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Mathieu Marano
Re: Dual HD-SDI in to a Kona 3, from two XDCAM EX1's, for on set capture/playback/edit
on Jan 27, 2008 at 11:52:23 pm

But is it possible to capture a Dual Stream from the SRW1 with a Kona 3?

Mathieu Marano
online editor - motion graphics - Post-prod director
Directeur technique de post-production
Le Bureau de post production

Administrator of the Montreal Final Cut User Group
http://www.finalcutmtl.org


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Michael Pierre
Re: Dual HD-SDI in to a Kona 3, from two XDCAM EX1's, for on set capture/playback/edit
on Jan 28, 2008 at 12:05:08 am

Matthew wrote: "But is it possible to capture a Dual Stream from the SRW1 with a Kona 3? "


Yes this confuses me... I thought "dual hd-sdi" was possible with the Kona card 3. If possible from a SR-1 deck than why not in other ways?

Is there a work around for this?

Taking the card out of the camera, transferring it and unwrapping it takes to much time and defeats the idea of having "instant playback & edit".

How is this possible? A wafian ?



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Dual HD-SDI in to a Kona 3, from two XDCAM EX1's, for on set capture/playback/edit
on Jan 28, 2008 at 12:08:26 am

Dual link HD SDI is totally different than recording two separate streams of video.

Dual link HD SDI is combined from one source and creates one video file, you want to take two sources and record two separate video streams.


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Mathieu Marano
Re: Dual HD-SDI in to a Kona 3, from two XDCAM EX1's, for on set capture/playback/edit
on Jan 28, 2008 at 1:24:39 am

I was talking about Dual Stream HD and not dual link. DUal Stream is the possibility to record 1080i 4:2:2 to the HDCAM SR recorder SRW1. It it used to record stereoscopic images for 3D but it can be used tu record two completly different camera.

I'll start another thread for that...

Mathieu Marano
online editor - motion graphics - Post-prod director
Directeur technique de post-production
Le Bureau de post production

Administrator of the Montreal Final Cut User Group
http://www.finalcutmtl.org


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Dual HD-SDI in to a Kona 3, from two XDCAM EX1's, for on set capture/playback/edit
on Jan 28, 2008 at 3:48:10 am

[Mathieu Marano] "I was talking about Dual Stream HD and not dual link. DUal Stream is the possibility to record 1080i 4:2:2 to the HDCAM SR recorder SRW1. It it used to record stereoscopic images for 3D but it can be used tu record two completly different camera. "

Nope, sorry man. That's the same thing. Two separate video streams.

The Kona will record dual link in it's "downloadable" out of the box configuration, it will not record dual stream in it's out of the box config.

Jeremy

PS Nevermind, Bob said it better.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Dual HD-SDI in to a Kona 3, from two XDCAM EX1's, for on set capture/playback/edit
on Jan 28, 2008 at 12:05:31 am

Dual link from one camera, yes. Two separate streams of video, no. Not with the 'stock' AJA software.


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Michael Pierre
Re: Dual HD-SDI in to a Kona 3, from two XDCAM EX1's, for on set capture/playback/edit
on Jan 28, 2008 at 12:07:41 am

Do you have knowledge of "non-stock" AJA software that makes capture from two HD-SDI sources possible?



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Dual HD-SDI in to a Kona 3, from two XDCAM EX1's, for on set capture/playback/edit
on Jan 28, 2008 at 12:28:45 am

You'd have to talk to a company that writes their own drivers, like the RaveHD folks.

http://www.spectsoft.com/

It is far from cheap.



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Michael Pierre
Re: Dual HD-SDI in to a Kona 3, from two XDCAM EX1's, for on set capture/playback/edit
on Jan 28, 2008 at 12:36:41 am

This is totally crazy and I'm sure it wouldn't work... but, what if I had two separate Kona 3 cards installed into the same computer?

Would the computer recognize the two separate cards?

Even if I could do this I guess final cut pro is only capable of capturing 1 stream at a time... but it can play back several at the same time. Seems like these two things (capture and playback) are very similar... at least in terms of data rate.

I guess it's a software limitation... as you said.



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Bob Zelin
Re: Dual HD-SDI in to a Kona 3, from two XDCAM EX1's, for on set capture/playback/edit
on Jan 28, 2008 at 2:40:09 am

Michael,
this is the answer to your question, since you are so persistant ("but it has to work, there must be a way") -

this is the answer -
NO
NO
NO
NO
NO
NO, and in case I am not clear about this -
NO you CANNOT RECORD TWO DIFFENT SIGNALS ON THE SAME COMPUTER AT THE SAME TIME from ANY CAPTURE CARD for FCP or PREMIER.

Talk to SpectSoft (Ramona).

Bob Zelin




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gary adcock
Re: Dual HD-SDI in to a Kona 3, from two XDCAM EX1's, for on set capture/playback/edit
on Jan 28, 2008 at 1:26:01 pm

[Michael Pierre] " but, what if I had two separate Kona 3 cards installed into the same computer?
Would the computer recognize the two separate cards? "



NO.
This is an OS level issue and not something that can be controlled by the aja software.

gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows
Inside look at the IoHD




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Ramona Howard
Re: Dual HD-SDI in to a Kona 3, from two XDCAM EX1's, for on set capture/playback/edit
on Jan 28, 2008 at 5:07:31 pm

Inexpensive :)

When you consider your getting 2 SR's on steroids in one box, 36K is a drop in the bucket....in fact that's less that most cheap decks on the market.


Seriously.

There are many things possible with this hardware but it takes the synergy of the Hardware, OS and the app to make it all work and to work well , we are lucky enough to get to write for all of the above, getting us far more than the next guy. Not writing for the masses helps (every joe who owns a video camera). RaveHD is written for professionals and to address the workflow needs of that environment.

Dual SDI as in Dual Link is not the same as (Dual independent streams of SDI) in regards to how the AJA boards handle them or how the info is passed down the SDI wire. Our app and driver was written to handle dual streams in a manner that we can do both. We wrote the RaveHD app to adjust for these type of changes. The industry never sits still so we wrote our app to adapt.

Watch for info on our Quad, HD system, now that's a hard one to wrap your head around :)

Cheers,
Ramona





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gary adcock
Re: Dual HD-SDI in to a Kona 3, from two XDCAM EX1's, for on set capture/playback/edit
on Jan 28, 2008 at 1:23:51 pm

[Mathieu Marano] "But is it possible to capture a Dual Stream from the SRW1 with a Kona 3? "

Dual Link HDSDI and Dual Stream are 2 completely different things

Dual Link Video requires that the video be distributed as 4:2:2 and 0:2:2 signals over a bonded HDSDI pair.

Dual Stream is a Mode available on very few SRW1 decks that have been enabled for Stereo (3D) acquisition.

mac based editing platform do not currently have the capability to acquire as Dual Steam.

gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows
Inside look at the IoHD




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walter biscardi
Re: Dual HD-SDI in to a Kona 3, from two XDCAM EX1's, for on set capture/playback/edit
on Jan 28, 2008 at 12:48:03 am

[Michael Pierre] "Is it possible to bring two simultaneous streams of XDCAM EX1 HD-SD1 into Final Cut Pro via a Kona 3 card (capturing as DVCPRO-HD ) ? I've got a 5 bay esata raid by KONA (fast enough)?"

Nope. FCP can only accept one video input at any one time for capture.

Also, Dual Link HD-SDI is the combining of both HD-SDI inputs into one video signal such as 4:4:4 HD.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Biscardi Creative Media
HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions.

STOP STARING AND START GRADING WITH APPLE COLOR
The new Color Training DVD now available from the Creative Cow!

Read my Blog!


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Michael Pierre
Re: Dual HD-SDI in to a Kona 3, from two XDCAM EX1's, for on set capture/playback/edit
on Jan 28, 2008 at 3:33:03 am

Great, thanks for the help everyone.





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Nick Righton
Re: Dual HD-SDI in to a Kona 3, from two XDCAM EX1's, for on set capture/playback/edit
on Jan 28, 2008 at 4:58:23 am

You could do a live mix with something like the panasonic AV-HS400N HD-SDI mixer. Run HDSDI out of both cameras into the mixer and out into the Kona. Another option would be to run HDV out of both camera's via firewire and use Big Mugs Capture HD http://www.bigmugsoftware.com/capture/ software that will allow you to capture multiple HDV / DVCPROHD sources at once. I have not used either so I can not vouch for either one.

I wish I was good at one thing rather than average at many, but oh well.


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Michael Pierre
Re: Dual HD-SDI in to a Kona 3, from two XDCAM EX1's, for on set capture/playback/edit
on Jan 28, 2008 at 5:22:39 pm

Nick.

That Big Mug Software is a great idea. I don't know why Apple doesn't make it possible to capture more than one stream at a time. Seems like is would be relatively easy to do... I mean if you can get multiple streams of DVCPROHD through firewire via "big mug" than why can't apple do it with Kona/HD-SDI.



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gary adcock
Re: Dual HD-SDI in to a Kona 3, from two XDCAM EX1's, for on set capture/playback/edit
on Jan 28, 2008 at 6:12:38 pm

[Michael Pierre] "Seems like is would be relatively easy to do... I mean if you can get multiple streams of DVCPROHD through firewire via "big mug" than why can't apple do it with Kona/HD-SDI."

your kidding right?

handling 2 streams of DATA ( thats all FW is) is a simple issue for any computer compared to handling 2 HD steams of baseband video.




gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows
Inside look at the IoHD




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Michael Pierre
Re: Dual HD-SDI in to a Kona 3, from two XDCAM EX1's, for on set capture/playback/edit
on Jan 28, 2008 at 6:26:16 pm

sorry, I'm not kidding. Just curious and I guess I don't fully understand what the difference is. I'm learning, and admit that I'm not always aware of what I don't even know.
Please go easy.

DVCPROHD is DVCPROHD, 100 mbps. data right?

I don't understand why it would be any different to capture two streams of DVCPRO-HD (or what ever flavor) direct to disk via firewire vs. HD-SDI. If this software http://www.bigmugsoftware.com/capture/ can do it with firewire (small bandwidth capability in comparison to HD-SDI) than why can't Final Cut with Kona/HDSDI ?

There is something I'm missing.

Thanks : )



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gary adcock
Re: Dual HD-SDI vs Dual Stream into a Kona 3,
on Jan 28, 2008 at 6:59:46 pm

[Michael Pierre] "DVCPROHD is DVCPROHD, 100 mbps. data right? "

that is like saying a car is a car- they all have 4 tires don't they?

You are comparing apples to elephants


DVCPROHD is a codec - or COmpression DECompression engine- it is not video- you cannot plug in FW and have it show up on a monitor, but you can plug a BNC in a monitor to see video on it.

Baseband video is video, not data, and the video would need to be converted to data to be stored.


[Michael Pierre] "can do it with firewire (small bandwidth capability in comparison to HD-SDI) than why can't Final Cut with Kona/HDSDI ? "

because transferring data over FW is very very small in comparison to moving Baseband video over HDSDI -that pipe needs around 165MBPS is more than 10x what DVCPROHD (@ 14MBPS) uses for its compressed transfers.

handling data is NOT Handling VIDEO.



gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows
Inside look at the IoHD




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Michael Pierre
Re: Dual HD-SDI in to a Kona 3, from two XDCAM EX1's, for on set capture/playback/edit
on Jan 28, 2008 at 7:12:19 pm

Ok I think I got it.

Firewire = Data (small pipe)

vs.

HD-SDI = Video (large pipe)

How then, does "Big Mug" do it ? Because unless I'm reading it wrong they're claiming that they can capture and monitor DVCProHD via firewire... and more than one stream at that.





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gary adcock
Re: Dual HD-SDI in to a Kona 3, from two XDCAM EX1's, for on set capture/playback/edit
on Jan 28, 2008 at 7:21:08 pm

[Michael Pierre] "Ok I think I got it.
Firewire = Data (small pipe)
vs.
HD-SDI = Video (large pipe) "


if you got it why are you asking for an answer to your own question?




read your answer ( copied above) then apply it to your the question you followed with.





gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows
Inside look at the IoHD




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Ramona Howard
Re: Dual HD-SDI in to a Kona 3, from two XDCAM EX1's, for on set capture/playback/edit
on Jan 28, 2008 at 9:38:00 pm

Michael,

sorry, I'm not kidding. Just curious and I guess I don't fully understand what the difference is. I'm learning, and admit that I'm not always aware of what I don't even know. Please go easy.

Will guarantee that I will be a bit gentlier on you than Bob but not much :)

Difference is about 200mbs sustained, per stream:) (given we're talking 4:4:4 here)

The other factors are bus/lanes, not every motherboard is created equal. You try piping that down one bus/lane and see what you get (dual streams). A handful of hair because you get frustrated.

OS plays a huge role. You got overhead in your OS, good luck in getting your machine to perform without hickups...and this is about doing it flawless 24/7, right?

Can any Joe build a system and get it to work, sure just like they can make a movie with a digital H8. Talent and expertise does go along way with this stuff and the secrets of getting it done right are not easily shared, hey we got make a living too :)

The goal is to put solid performing tools into the hands of serious people. Ever tried using a screwdriver to hammer in a nail, why would this be any different.

Thanks for letting me bring my tools to the party. Cheers,
Ramona



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Michael Pierre
Re: Dual HD-SDI in to a Kona 3, from two XDCAM EX1's, for on set capture/playback/edit
on Jan 28, 2008 at 9:59:43 pm

Thanks Ramona.

I appreciate the levity and your explanation.

The first time Bob Zelin bit my head off I must admit it threw me a little, now I just get a good laugh out of it. He's warm underneath his hard armor (I think) ; ).

I wish I had a tee-shirt with a picture of bob and his crazy hair with those two birds perched on either finger.... the caption would read:

"Zelin for president".

you seen the picture? - It's on his creative cow bio page. He looks a little like Roger Daltery

: )



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David Smith
Re: Dual HD-SDI in to a Kona 3, from two XDCAM EX1's, for on set capture/playback/edit
on Jan 29, 2008 at 8:24:15 pm

Michael,

Allow me to make an alternative suggestion.

Two laptops or towers (I use Powerbook G4 1.67 machines which are pretty cheap these days, but DON'T use the last "HR" version)

Two MOTU V3HD Firewire converters.

Two eSATA to PCMCIA cards (If you go with Powerbooks. The Firmtek models are a good choice, and of course you'd need Expresscards instead if you go with Macbook Pros)

Two eSATA hard drive cases, or a dual bay case with separate inputs

I use this setup to record two HD-SDI sources as DVCPro-HD. You could use AJA io HD boxes instead of the V3HD, but you'll need intel macs and more drive space for the Pro Res files.

You'll have "instant" playback capability, but of course for your assembly you'd need to move one of the drives to the other machine. The V3HD (or io HD) will allow you to connect to SD or HD monitors. I'd be happy to talk with you about the workflow, and if you're anywhere near New York City you can come see how it works if you'd like.

Regards,
David



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Michael Pierre
Re: Dual HD-SDI in to a Kona 3, from two XDCAM EX1's, for on set capture/playback/edit
on Jan 29, 2008 at 8:36:02 pm

David,

this sounds great.

I wonder... is it possible to "network" the esata drives together somehow ?
Or perhaps have a third drive that is shared by both esata drives so that once the footage is captured it can be copied over to the drive which will be used as the capture scratch in FCP for editing. does that make sense ?



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David Smith
Re: Dual HD-SDI in to a Kona 3, from two XDCAM EX1's, for on set capture/playback/edit
on Jan 29, 2008 at 9:33:04 pm

[Michael Pierre] "I wonder... is it possible to "network" the esata drives together somehow ? "

I suppose you could network the computers together as they have Gigabit ethernet.... but I'm not sure the transfer times would be fast enough. The workflow is going to depend on how often the director wants to see a rough cut. You wouldn't be able to record and transfer at the same time.

You could use hot swappable drive cases, and possibly a third computer to edit and play back from. Then you could sneakernet the drives around as needed.



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Ramona Howard
Re: Dual HD-SDI in to a Kona 3, from two XDCAM EX1's, for on set capture/playback/edit
on Jan 29, 2008 at 9:45:17 pm

OK you guys just segwayed into our new Bravo product emerging at NAB. Portability of uncompressed content with absolutely no transfer times. This means huge savings! For anyone who has had to transfer HD frames, especially 4:4:4 frames over a network or on/off external units you will understand and appreciate.

Instantly access to every frame as full uncompressed material and yes network mountable to those editing and compositing packages and or a direct connect to some solutions where the hardware allows. All standard, inexpensive, straight forward stuff :)

Look forward to sharing as the days tick away towards April.

Cheers,
Ramona







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