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Apple Pro-Res HQ 1920X1080 as a RECORDING codec ?

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Michael Pierre
Apple Pro-Res HQ 1920X1080 as a RECORDING codec ?
on Jan 24, 2008 at 12:32:08 am

I'm going to shoot a little test this weekend.
My plan is to pipe a signal out of the HD-SDI of a Sony XDCAM EX-1 into my AJA Kona 3.
I spoke to an AJA tech the other day who said I shouldn't have any problem capturing as ProRes HQ.

It'd be great to test some other codecs as well, but I think the limiting factor is my drive array.

Currently I'm suing a Kano Technologies esata 5 bay Raid array which is configured for speed.
I have captured short clips of uncompressed Varicam successfully with this drive... so I think it should be able to handle Apple Pro Res.

Are there any other codecs that I should test? I'm looking for the best possible quality. What about sheer?

Any suggestions or insight would be greatly appreciated.

Michael


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walter biscardi
Re: Apple Pro-Res HQ 1920X1080 as a RECORDING codec ?
on Jan 24, 2008 at 12:38:44 am

ProRes and DVCPro HD are the two codecs to choose from. We have been using DVCPro HD for over three years now and it's a solid codec. We've only used ProRes in SD projects to date, though I'm testing a short movie with 720p ProRes HQ right now.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Biscardi Creative Media
HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions.

STOP STARING AND START GRADING WITH APPLE COLOR
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Michael Pierre
Re: Apple Pro-Res HQ 1920X1080 as a RECORDING codec ?
on Jan 24, 2008 at 12:46:17 am

So I'd be bypassing the 35mbps Sony codec which is good.

I could go with DVCPRO HD (100mbps) which would be just like the HVX-200 correct?

Or I could go with ProResHQ. If I go with ProRes HQ what is the recording bandwidth and would there be any advantages lets say over DVCPRO-HD in contrast ratio, signal to noise ratio ect... ?

thank you.



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Michael Pierre
Re: Apple Pro-Res HQ 1920X1080 as a RECORDING codec ?
on Jan 24, 2008 at 12:46:18 am

So I'd be bypassing the 35mbps Sony codec which is good.

I could go with DVCPRO HD (100mbps) which would be just like the HVX-200 correct?

Or I could go with ProResHQ. If I go with ProRes HQ what is the recording bandwidth and would there be any advantages lets say over DVCPRO-HD in contrast ratio, signal to noise ratio ect... ?

thank you.



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walter biscardi
Re: Apple Pro-Res HQ 1920X1080 as a RECORDING codec ?
on Jan 24, 2008 at 12:50:37 am

[Michael Pierre] "I could go with DVCPRO HD (100mbps) which would be just like the HVX-200 correct?"

Yes.

[Michael Pierre] "Or I could go with ProResHQ. If I go with ProRes HQ what is the recording bandwidth and would there be any advantages lets say over DVCPRO-HD in contrast ratio, signal to noise ratio ect... ?"

The bandwith is a bit higher than DVCPro HD as it's a full raster frame, not anamorphic like DVCPro HD and HDV. Apple claims their ProRes codec is comparable to uncompressed quality. I really saw no discernable difference in our DVCPro HD material whether it was in ProRes or DVCPro HD, even after a color grading pass.

Personally, we're still going DVCPro HD at the moment because it works extremely well. After I complete this short film, we'll see if ProRes made any sort of a difference.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Biscardi Creative Media
HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions.

STOP STARING AND START GRADING WITH APPLE COLOR
The new Color Training DVD now available from the Creative Cow!

Read my Blog!


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Chris Seguine
Re: Apple Pro-Res HQ 1920X1080 as a RECORDING codec ?
on Jan 24, 2008 at 3:24:06 am

DVCPRO HD = 8bit, 1280x1080, 100mbs

ProResHQ = 10bit, 1920x1080, aprox. 220mbs

Your EX1 is 1920x1080, and per this post:

http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/142/856265

Sony claims its 10bit via SDI.

ProResHQ would provide a much higher quality capture than DVCPROHD.

The only advantage of dvcprohd is that it requires less cpu power to decode.


Keep in mind the SDI output is always 1080i even if you shoot 24p, so you will need to remove the pulldown with cinematools if you are shooting 24P.

---
Christopher Seguine
Sublime Films, San Francisco


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Apple Pro-Res HQ 1920X1080 as a RECORDING codec ?
on Jan 24, 2008 at 4:02:46 am

Another vote for ProResHQ here. I have been using the ioHD for onset capture and straight out of the camera to ProResHQ is sweet! I have not used it with your particular camera, but my vote is Prores and avoid DVCPro HD. Your 5 drive array will be plenty to capture ProRes. To capture ProResHQ you will need to be comfortably around 40 MB/sec. That includes 4 channels of audio.

Jeremy




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Michael Pierre
Re: Apple Pro-Res HQ 1920X1080 as a RECORDING codec ?
on Jan 24, 2008 at 1:50:43 pm

Great. Thanks for all the help guys.
Curious about the 1080i (only) capture via sdi.
When I remove the pulldown cinematools to get 24p will this look as if it was done in camera?
Will the quality be the same ? Other than a little extra time are there any other downsides to converting to 24p after ingest?

thank you.
Michael



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Apple Pro-Res HQ 1920X1080 as a RECORDING codec ?
on Jan 24, 2008 at 2:20:50 pm

[Michael Pierre] "Other than a little extra time are there any other downsides to converting to 24p after ingest? "

No, none at all. I have yet to test this, but I am going to soon, Compressor has a reverse telecine option in it now. I think it automatically detects the cadence and removes PD automatically. I think.

I am going to try it today to see if it really works. It will save you some time vs Cinema Tools.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Apple Pro-Res HQ 1920X1080 as a RECORDING codec ?
on Jan 24, 2008 at 5:05:54 pm

Michael, on a small test batch I did just now, it seems to work great. Simply setup a preset and away you go. Set up your codec and frame rate then choose rev telecine in the Frame controls tab > Deinterlace section. It does it all automagically. Pretty sweet and much better than CT as you can do it in a batch and don't have to find the A frames.

Jeremy


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Michael Pierre
Re: Apple Pro-Res HQ 1920X1080 as a RECORDING codec ?
on Jan 24, 2008 at 5:16:04 pm

Jeremy.

So basically final cut pro converted the footage to progressive on the fly as it was ingested?
Curious which camera you used and what codec you captured too? I'm assuming ProResHQ 1920X1080.

What did you think about the quality of the footage?

thank you,
michael



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Apple Pro-Res HQ 1920X1080 as a RECORDING codec ?
on Jan 24, 2008 at 5:20:06 pm

No. This stuff was actually SD that I tested, shot with an SDX900 @ 24p. I then took a few of the raw clips, setup a Compressor preset, let it run and a few minutes later I had 24p clips. It will work the same on 1080 clips


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Michael Pierre
Re: Apple Pro-Res HQ 1920X1080 as a RECORDING codec ?
on Jan 24, 2008 at 5:22:08 pm

got it. cool.

How did the footage compare to regular DVCPRO-50 SD footage directly out of the SDX900 ?



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Apple Pro-Res HQ 1920X1080 as a RECORDING codec ?
on Jan 24, 2008 at 5:41:33 pm

I have never pulled an easier key. I have yet to do an HD shoot that would allow on set capture, but the next time I will definitely be capturing straight out to disk and by passing the camera codec, although we still run tape backup for assurance.

Jeremy


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David Chai
Re: Apple Pro-Res HQ 1920X1080 as a RECORDING codec ?
on Jan 26, 2008 at 3:46:46 am

Definitely go with Prores HQ, we used to use DVCPRO HD but there would be softness introduced from the scaling to 1280 x 1080. The Pro Res is a lot sharper and gradations definitely are smoother.

David Chai.

-----------------
David Chai
Director . Camera . Editor
http://www.davidchai.com
dc@davidchai.com
212 363 0159


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Sean ONeil
Re: Apple Pro-Res HQ 1920X1080 as a RECORDING codec ?
on Feb 7, 2008 at 3:24:09 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "Compressor has a reverse telecine option in it now. I think it automatically detects the cadence and removes PD automatically. I think."

Say what!?! I'm gonna have to check this out.

Sean


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Apple Pro-Res HQ 1920X1080 as a RECORDING codec ?
on Feb 7, 2008 at 3:46:25 am

Yes, it's in the deinterlace drop down in the frame controls tab. All my tests look great so far. You can batch it all without the A frame fiasco.

Jeremy


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Sean ONeil
Re: Apple Pro-Res HQ 1920X1080 as a RECORDING codec ?
on Feb 7, 2008 at 5:10:18 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "Yes, it's in the deinterlace drop down in the frame controls tab. All my tests look great so far. You can batch it all without the A frame fiasco"

Sweet, I'm checking it out tomorrow. I did read here though that it doesn't work with the new Kona drivers for Leopard. But I'm on Tiger still so I'll check it out.

Sean


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Apple Pro-Res HQ 1920X1080 as a RECORDING codec ?
on Feb 7, 2008 at 2:25:08 pm

What doesn't work? Compressor?


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Sean ONeil
Re: Apple Pro-Res HQ 1920X1080 as a RECORDING codec ?
on Feb 7, 2008 at 6:09:54 pm

Ugghhh. You're gonna make me find the link. Hold on...

Here, it was Apple discussions, not the Cow:
http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?messageID=6487028�



Sean


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Apple Pro-Res HQ 1920X1080 as a RECORDING codec ?
on Feb 7, 2008 at 6:40:12 pm

Hmm, sounds suspicious to me. I am still on Tigey too. It works with AJA Kona 3 installed.


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Sean ONeil
Re: Apple Pro-Res HQ 1920X1080 as a RECORDING codec ?
on Feb 7, 2008 at 6:51:28 pm

Quick question. What if there are cadence breaks within the program? Does it handle that?

Sean


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Apple Pro-Res HQ 1920X1080 as a RECORDING codec ?
on Feb 7, 2008 at 8:00:48 pm

Hmm haven't tried that. This footage was from a capture, but captured in separate takes, not as as one. My first reaction would be that it wouldn't do it, but who knows.

Jeremy


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del chapple
Re: Apple Pro-Res HQ 1920X1080 as a RECORDING codec ?
on Feb 8, 2008 at 2:01:23 am

i'd bet it doesnt detect cadence breaks.. try "JES Deinterlacer" it will detect cadance breaks and its freeee..

del

you cant hear my inner voice scream... can you..?


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