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2K downconvert and crossconvert

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Mathieu Marano
2K downconvert and crossconvert
on Jan 21, 2008 at 8:57:48 pm

Is is possible, with the Kona 3 to:

1-playback a 2K sequence to a NTSC SDI output?
2-output a NTSC DigiBeta master tape from a 2K sequence in realtime?
3-make a NTSC BetaSP master tape from a 1080psf 23.98 sequence?
4-playback a 1080psf 23.98 sequence to a NTSC SDI output?

thanks

Mathieu Marano
online editor - motion graphics - Post-prod director
Directeur technique de post-production
Le Bureau de post production

Administrator of the Montreal Final Cut User Group
http://www.finalcutmtl.org


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gary adcock
Re: 2K downconvert and crossconvert
on Jan 22, 2008 at 3:20:57 pm

[Mathieu Marano] "Is is possible, with the Kona 3 to:
1-playback a 2K sequence to a NTSC SDI output?
2-output a NTSC DigiBeta master tape from a 2K sequence in realtime?
3-make a NTSC BetaSP master tape from a 1080psf 23.98 sequence?
4-playback a 1080psf 23.98 sequence to a NTSC SDI output? "



Yes.
but it takes a little care in the setup.

The Downconversion options are controlled via the Kona Control panel.
you have to have an array fast enough to playback the 2K / 4:4:4 RGB data in realtime
you have to adjust the output of the 1080 23.98 so that it is outputting at 29.97 then do the down convert. to NTSC

there is no timecode transfer from the 2K files ( assuming they are DPX) since that is not supported in FCP.

gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows
Inside look at the IoHD




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Mathieu Marano
Re: 2K downconvert and crossconvert
on Jan 22, 2008 at 3:49:19 pm

Gary said:
you have to adjust the output of the 1080 23.98 so that it is outputting at 29.97 then do the down convert. to NTSC

Mat says:
The Kona will do the pulldown on output and the downconvert to NTSC? Will I then be able to EDIT TO TAPE?

Mathieu Marano
online editor - motion graphics - Post-prod director
Directeur technique de post-production
Le Bureau de post production

Administrator of the Montreal Final Cut User Group
http://www.finalcutmtl.org


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gary adcock
Re: 2K downconvert and crossconvert
on Jan 22, 2008 at 4:38:39 pm

[Mathieu Marano] "Mat says:
The Kona will do the pulldown on output and the downconvert to NTSC? Will I then be able to EDIT TO TAPE? "


yes it will.

but you may have to create a custom setup depending on the tape deck you are outputting to.




gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows
Inside look at the IoHD




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Christopher Tay
Re: 2K downconvert and crossconvert
on Jan 22, 2008 at 5:29:56 pm

Hi Gary,

I suppose you will need to use the DPX to QT utility from AJA to wrap the 2K DPX files into a 2K Quicktime clip before playing it back in FCP ?

-chrispy



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Mathieu Marano
Re: 2K downconvert and crossconvert
on Jan 22, 2008 at 6:59:54 pm

For myself, I will work with a tiff sequence. I won't need the DPXtoQT. I will probably use SilverStack.

Thanks for your time



Mathieu Marano
online editor - motion graphics - Post-prod director
Directeur technique de post-production
Le Bureau de post production

Administrator of the Montreal Final Cut User Group
http://www.finalcutmtl.org


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Chris Seguine
Re: 2K downconvert and crossconvert
on Jan 22, 2008 at 9:29:22 pm

Mathieu,

1-playback a 2K sequence to a NTSC SDI output?
2-output a NTSC DigiBeta master tape from a 2K sequence in realtime?


Yes it will do the the conversion, but NO it will not be correct. Due to problems with the aja codec/vout and quicktime gamma handling - RGB sources are a mess. In your case RGB -> 601, the gamma will be wrong, blacks clipped then boosted, and whites clipped. So if its just a dub to mix to its ok, but if the image is important you would be better to render it.

Also remember, its a 2k crop - not a scale. So your 2k sequence gets cropped to 1920x1080, then scaled to SD.


3-make a NTSC BetaSP master tape from a 1080psf 23.98 sequence?
4-playback a 1080psf 23.98 sequence to a NTSC SDI output?


That will work fine as long as your 1080p sequence is YUV.

but

[Mathieu Marano] "Mat says:
The Kona will do the pulldown on output and the downconvert to NTSC? Will I then be able to EDIT TO TAPE? "
(gary adcock) yes it will.


No, it will not. FCP assumes your VTR is the same time base as your sequence - even if you choose a different frame rate vtr control. You can print to tape, but not edit to tape, your points will be wrong and the edit will abort.



Thanks for the SilverStack mention, I never heard of that before, the HCD version looks promising.





---
Christopher Seguine
Sublime Films, San Francisco


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gary adcock
Re: 2K downconvert and crossconvert
on Jan 22, 2008 at 11:58:14 pm

[Chris Seguine] "
Yes it will do the the conversion, but NO it will not be correct. Due to problems with the aja codec/vout and quicktime gamma handling - RGB sources are a mess. In your case RGB -> 601, the gamma will be wrong, blacks clipped then boosted, and whites clipped."


the YUV YUV is not appearing to be an issue when staying in a fully frame based workflow- a larger issue is the RGB to 601 colorspace conversion that can be more disconcerting.

"[Mathieu Marano] "Mat says:
The Kona will do the pulldown on output and the downconvert to NTSC? Will I then be able to EDIT TO TAPE? "
(gary adcock) yes it will.
[Chris Seguine]No, it will not. FCP assumes your VTR is the same time base as your sequence"


IF you read the post, I said it can be done by adjusting your 23.98 timeline output to be at 29.97, allowing the kona card to add the redundant frames and it will properly spit out baseband video at the correct frame rate.




gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows
Inside look at the IoHD




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gary adcock
Re: 2K downconvert and crossconvert
on Jan 23, 2008 at 12:01:41 am

[Chris Seguine] "Mathieu Marano] "Mat says:
The Kona will do the pulldown on output and the downconvert to NTSC? Will I then be able to EDIT TO TAPE? "
(gary adcock) yes it will. "


From some one else


http://forums.creativecow.net/thread/8/971870



gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows
Inside look at the IoHD




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gary adcock
Re: 2K downconvert and crossconvert
on Jan 22, 2008 at 11:49:05 pm

[Christopher Tay] "I suppose you will need to use the DPX to QT utility from AJA to wrap the 2K DPX files into a 2K Quicktime clip before playing it back in FCP ?
"


yes or that will do it

I use Gluetools for this type of conversion due to the handling of the metadata is better, the AJA app works solely in the QT wrapper - that can leave out the header info from certain formats ( codex and stwo) whereas Gluetools allows me control over the header info.

gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows
Inside look at the IoHD




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Chris Seguine
Re: 2K downconvert and crossconvert
on Jan 23, 2008 at 7:36:06 am

(gary adcock)IF you read the post, I said it can be done by adjusting your 23.98 timeline output to be at 29.97, allowing the kona card to add the redundant frames and it will properly spit out baseband video at the correct frame rate.

IF you attempt to do what you are stating you will learn that the edit will fail just as I described previously. FCP has no idea that the kona card is doing a doing a downconversion and adding 3:2, it just knows a 23.976 timeline must edit to a 23.976 tape. It sees 29.97 timecode over vtr control and doesn't know what to do. Its been this way since cinewave, they have no interest in fixing it. To make sure nothing changed, I have a 1080/23.976 timeline, kona output set to 525/29.97 downconvert, sdi to D5 in 525 mode. Insert edit = edit aborted, Assemble = Edit aborted. no it does not matter if you disable or enable ETT polling and yes vtr xchange has similar trouble.


---
Christopher Seguine
Sublime Films, San Francisco


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gary adcock
Re: 2K downconvert and crossconvert
on Jan 23, 2008 at 2:23:09 pm

[Chris Seguine] "I have a 1080/23.976 timeline, kona output set to 525/29.97 downconvert, sdi to D5 in 525 mode. Insert edit = edit aborted, Assemble = Edit aborted. "

that because you need to change the HD output to be 29.97 first before starting the downconvert.

there are 3 separate posting about this very subject in both the Kona and FCP forums right now and everyone else seems to have it working.

and if you have proper trilevel sync into your D5 it should work directly.






gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows
Inside look at the IoHD




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Jeremy Garchow
Re: 2K downconvert and crossconvert
on Jan 23, 2008 at 4:51:58 pm

[gary adcock] "hat because you need to change the HD output to be 29.97 first before starting the downconvert. "

Do this in the View > VIdeo Playback menu and change it to Kona3 1080i29.97


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Chris Seguine
Re: 2K downconvert and crossconvert
on Jan 24, 2008 at 3:36:31 am


(gary adcock) and if you have proper trilevel sync into your D5 it should work directly.

good luck finding that standard def vtr with tri level sync reference or even a multiformat vtr which syncs to tri-level when in 525 mode. does not work that way.

---
Christopher Seguine
Sublime Films, San Francisco


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gary adcock
Re: 2K downconvert and crossconvert
on Jan 24, 2008 at 3:24:15 pm

[Chris Seguine] "good luck finding that standard def vtr with tri level sync reference or even a multiformat vtr which syncs to tri-level when in 525 mode. does not work that way."

A properly configured D5 deck should and does accept Trilevel sync, thats what is was designed for, to allow for multiple frame rate adjustments across formats.

I thought not seeing Trilevel sync was fixed maybe 3 (?) revs of the deck software back, when HD was unified into to the base D5 setup.




gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows
Inside look at the IoHD




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