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Kona LHe downconvert 1080 to 720 ??

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Christopher S. Johnson
Kona LHe downconvert 1080 to 720 ??
on Jan 12, 2008 at 9:59:43 pm

Howdy,

Looked all over for this:

Can the Kona LHe downconvert an incoming analog 1080i 29.97 signal to 720p 59.94 upon capture? I am beginning to think that the only kind of downconversion this card does is to Standard Def. Rats.

Thanks.

-Christopher S. Johnson


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walter biscardi
Re: Kona LHe downconvert 1080 to 720 ??
on Jan 12, 2008 at 10:09:29 pm

[Christopher S. Johnson] "Can the Kona LHe downconvert an incoming analog 1080i 29.97 signal to 720p 59.94 upon capture?"

No, only the Kona 3 and IoHD can perform this. And this is not a downconvert, it's an HD Cross-Convert.


[Christopher S. Johnson] "I am beginning to think that the only kind of downconversion this card does is to Standard Def. Rats."

That is absolutely correct and clearly described as such on the AJA website.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Biscardi Creative Media
HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions.

STOP STARING AND START GRADING WITH APPLE COLOR
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Christopher S. Johnson
Re: Kona LHe downconvert 1080 to 720 ??
on Jan 12, 2008 at 10:39:34 pm

Thanks for the reply. There is a sort of illogical-ness to it though. I wasnt expecting a "cross-conversion" from 720 to 1080, for example. And the "work" involved in downconverting from HD to SD seems to be equal or greater than that of 1080 to 720.

I'm not asking for a defense of the company and I actually love the card, but there is a smell of disabling of utility so that marketing can do its thing.

I needed the analog inputs and that takes priority. C'est La Vie.

- Christopher S. Johnson


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Christopher S. Johnson
Re: Kona LHe downconvert 1080 to 720 ??
on Jan 12, 2008 at 10:40:14 pm

Thanks for the reply. There is a sort of illogical-ness to it though. I wasnt expecting a "cross-conversion" from 720 to 1080, for example. And the "work" involved in downconverting from HD to SD seems to be equal or greater than that of 1080 to 720.

I'm not asking for a defense of the company and I actually love the card, but there is a smell of disabling of utility so that marketing can do its thing.

I needed the analog inputs and that takes priority. C'est La Vie.

- Christopher S. Johnson


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walter biscardi
Re: Kona LHe downconvert 1080 to 720 ??
on Jan 12, 2008 at 11:55:05 pm



[Christopher S. Johnson] "There is a sort of illogical-ness to it though."

I really don't follow. AJA clearly advertises what their cards do and don't do. The LHe (and LH) clearly offer HD to SD downconversion only.

[Christopher S. Johnson] "I needed the analog inputs and that takes priority. C'est La Vie."

Then you add the AJA HD10AVA for your analog inputs if you require HD Component analog into the card. Or your add an AJA Io LA if you require SD Analog input. We have both here to feed our Kona 3's and Kona 2.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Biscardi Creative Media
HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions.

STOP STARING AND START GRADING WITH APPLE COLOR
The new Color Training DVD now available from the Creative Cow!

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Christopher S. Johnson
Re: Kona LHe downconvert 1080 to 720 ??
on Jan 13, 2008 at 1:08:56 am

Walter said, "I really don't follow. AJA clearly advertises what their cards do and don't do. The LHe (and LH) clearly offer HD to SD downconversion only. "

Right. You and the website are technically right. But in casual conversation this card is discussed just as "not having up-conversion abilities". This is one of the two major things one says in a conversation about the difference between the two cards. Its just the way it gets discussed in groups -- often. My bad for misinterpreting that.

Thats not the kind of logic I'm talking about. I'm not discussing a legal complaint at all. I'm not even bitching too much. I'm not even saying that I feel that an injustice has been done.

I'm talking about the engineering perspective and what the technology is capable of. There is a logic that goes like this: " because the card can down-convert from 1080p all the way down to SD in perfect 10 bit, it would seem like less of a stretch to down-convert from 1080 to 720 and would not require the serious up-converting hardware of the Kona3"

I think that has a line of logic to it.

Thanks for the input.

-Christopher



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Christopher S. Johnson
Oh and $4000
on Jan 13, 2008 at 1:12:53 am


Oh, and $4000 for a capture card (Kona 3 plus component converter) is not possible now, but its nice to know what 4G's can buy these days.

-Christopher


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walter biscardi
Re: Oh and $4000
on Jan 13, 2008 at 1:20:28 am

[Christopher S. Johnson] "Oh, and $4000 for a capture card (Kona 3 plus component converter) is not possible now, but its nice to know what 4G's can buy these days."

Don't forget the $25,000 for a Panasonic 1400 for DVCPro HD.

$32,000 for the Sony HDW-1800 for HDCAM Playback. ($60k if you want the recorder)

$8,000 for the 24" TV-Logic 1080p display.

Maybe $4,000 - $6,000 for a high speed array.

High Def ain't cheap but it's a heckuva lot cheaper these days thanks to companies like AJA giving us incredible hardware for a very low cost.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Biscardi Creative Media
HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions.

STOP STARING AND START GRADING WITH APPLE COLOR
The new Color Training DVD now available from the Creative Cow!

Read my Blog!


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Christopher S. Johnson
Re: Oh and $4000
on Jan 13, 2008 at 1:28:25 am

Walter: "High Def ain't cheap but it's a heckuva lot cheaper these days thanks to companies like AJA giving us incredible hardware for a very low cost."

Agreed. And I would have paid $2000 even for LHe, instead of $1600 if it "cross-converted" 1080 to 720.

Oh, and I rent decks.

-Christopher


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walter biscardi
Re: Kona LHe downconvert 1080 to 720 ??
on Jan 13, 2008 at 1:16:40 am

[Christopher S. Johnson] "I'm talking about the engineering perspective and what the technology is capable of. There is a logic that goes like this: " because the card can down-convert from 1080p all the way down to SD in perfect 10 bit, it would seem like less of a stretch to down-convert from 1080 to 720 and would not require the serious up-converting hardware of the Kona3""

Those are NOT the same thing at all. HD to SD Down-Conversion is something different altogether.

1080 to 720 or 720 to 1080 is an HD Cross Conversion. It is a high definition to high definition conversion of one format to the other. There is no "down" conversion whatsoever.

These are completely different procedures. Down-converts to SD are much easier to perform than Cross Conversion from one HD format to another.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Biscardi Creative Media
HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions.

STOP STARING AND START GRADING WITH APPLE COLOR
The new Color Training DVD now available from the Creative Cow!

Read my Blog!


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Christopher S. Johnson
Re: Kona LHe downconvert 1080 to 720 ??
on Jan 13, 2008 at 1:39:17 am

Walter: "1080 to 720 or 720 to 1080 is an HD Cross Conversion. It is a high definition to high definition conversion of one format to the other. There is no "down" conversion whatsoever.
These are completely different procedures. Down-converts to SD are much easier to perform than Cross Conversion from one HD format to another."

I hear you, and respect that you share an opinion with the company, but I remain skeptical of the 1080 to 720 claim.

Actually the point is moot now for me. I'm recording HD broadcast stuff from an HD-DVR (for temp footage) and the consumer HD-DVR does a brilliant conversion from the 1080 to 720. Looks very clean, even upon close inspection. It appears the hardware to do this is not very expensive.

-Christopher


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gary adcock
Re: Kona LHe downconvert 1080 to 720 ??
on Jan 13, 2008 at 3:33:12 pm

[Christopher S. Johnson] "because the card can down-convert from 1080p all the way down to SD in perfect 10 bit, it would seem like less of a stretch to down-convert from 1080 to 720 and would not require the serious up-converting hardware of the Kona3""

if a cross conversion were truly a downconversion you might be partially correct.
What about the conversion from interlace to progressive? ( you do realize that 1080 is not P but Psf)

There is only so much programing chips can hold, without increasing the cost of the product.







gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows
Inside look at the IoHD




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Christopher S. Johnson
Re: Kona LHe downconvert 1080 to 720 ??
on Jan 13, 2008 at 5:43:21 pm

Gary said, "( you do realize that 1080 is not P but Psf) "

Actually, I know of the name, and I used it to capture HDCAM footage the other day, but no, I do not know the meaning of Psf. Enlighten me.

So, for another project of mine, using a Kona LHe, a documentary, I have captured

- About 40 reels of Varicam as native DVCPRO-HD 720p 23.98

- About 20 reels of F900 HDCAM to standard ProRes 1080 23.98Psf

Right now, for the edit, I am using the DVCPRO-HD 720p 23.98 Easy Set-Up and Sequence. This allows the Kona control Panel to put up with displaying both formats from the Viewer.

If I was in the ProRes 1080Psf world, the 720 stuff would play in a Sequence because of FCP 6.0.2 Open Timeline, but then the viewer would NOT display the 720 stuff.

Rendering each footage in each other's timeline/sequence looks OK, but there is some fine aliasing. I haven't tried the high quality scaling settings in the 720p Sequence yet.

What would you do with those two formats already captured and a Kona LHe? What are the strengths in Final Cut Studio with this card that would make the 1080 or the 720 Sequence a better meeting ground for these two formats? Oh and we may very well do a film-out.

Thanks for any info. I've been using FCP since version 1.0 in 1999 and its always good to glean new perspectives. Its a been a long strange trip.

-Christopher S. Johnson


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