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DPX 10-bit Log vs. AJA Kona 10-bit Log RGB Codec

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Russell Lasson
DPX 10-bit Log vs. AJA Kona 10-bit Log RGB Codec
on Nov 7, 2007 at 9:05:41 pm

I'm working with a Red camera and I'm trying to figure out a post workflow.

It might make things a lot easier for me if I could stay in QuickTime. So what's the difference between DPX and the Kona AJA 10-bit Log RGB codec?

Also, Color givse me an option to render in the AJA Kona 10-bit RGB Codec. But this isn't the Log codec right? It's the Linear codec....?

Let me know what you think. Thanks!

-Russ


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Russell Lasson
Re: DPX 10-bit Log vs. AJA Kona 10-bit Log RGB Codec
on Nov 7, 2007 at 9:22:17 pm

Another question...

With the Kona 3 installed, can I use Glue Tools to import a DPX sequence and play it back without having to render using the AJA Kona 10-bit RGB codec? (lin or log?)

Or would I have to use the AJA DPXtoQuickTime converter?

Thanks!

-Russ


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Alan Okey
Re: DPX 10-bit Log vs. AJA Kona 10-bit Log RGB Codec
on Nov 7, 2007 at 11:16:49 pm

Russ,

You might want to try contacting Mike Curtis at hdforindies.com:

mike@hdforindies.com



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Tcurren
Re: DPX 10-bit Log vs. AJA Kona 10-bit Log RGB Codec
on Nov 8, 2007 at 2:44:44 pm

The Red camera is linear. Don't go to Log until you need to for a film LUT.

Terence Curren
http://www.alphadogs.tv
http://www.digitalservicestation.com
Burbank,Ca


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gary adcock
Re: DPX 10-bit Log vs. AJA Kona 10-bit Log RGB Codec
on Nov 8, 2007 at 8:15:07 pm

[Tcurren] "The Red camera is linear. Don't go to Log until you need to for a film LUT."

Hey Terry good to finally meet yesterday


OK
the DPX format requires very very fastdrives for playback, and in the workflow for you are not working with the actual files - Glue tools and the AJA DPX converter both are just putting a reference movie wrapper around the DPX files.

in all honesty Russell - if you are only going to work in HD ProRes is just fine.
I agree with TC that Log in only for film, and if you are not used to looking at log files
you will not properly color correct the footage.





gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows

http://library.creativecow.net/articles/adcock_gary/AJAIOHD.php


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Russell Lasson
Re: DPX 10-bit Log vs. AJA Kona 10-bit Log RGB Codec
on Nov 8, 2007 at 11:58:09 pm

Thanks for your input guys.

I completely agree that for any video output at 1080P, ProRes is a great option.

I'm currently working with a RED owner to help figure out a film out workflow (hence the want to use Log.)

What I'm wondering is if I can use the AJA 10-bit LOG RGB codec to confrom in FCP. Then with a Kona 3, play it out to HDCAM SR over dual-link. Then with the EDL, we could really take it anywhere for color.

The other option is to export DPX 10-bit Log files, use glue tools or DPXtoQuickTime Translator to conform in FCP. Then the output to HDCAM SR.

If I do this, then when I render effects/transitions, will they render at 10-bit LOG or just 8-bit RGB Lin?

Thanks!

By the way, having played with a REDONE and the footage coming off of it, I can tell you now, the future has arrived. NOW WE JUST NEED A WAY TO EDIT IT!!!!!!!!!

-Russ


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Tcurren
Re: DPX 10-bit Log vs. AJA Kona 10-bit Log RGB Codec
on Nov 9, 2007 at 12:15:00 am

[Russell Lasson] "By the way, having played with a REDONE and the footage coming off of it, I can tell you now, the future has arrived. NOW WE JUST NEED A WAY TO EDIT IT!!!!!!!!!
"


Here's what you want to do. Offline in FCP, finish in Scratch. You can do this by:

Using Redcine, make 2K DPX sequences from your Red footage. Use the AJA DPX to QT translator. Cut your movie. When you are done, take the EDL and the 2K sequences to Scratch. You could actually even use the 4K originals in Scratch, though I haven't seen this work yet.

FCP and Scratch are THE ONLY supported workflows for Red at this point. This means they can natively support the RED codec. Unfortunately, that version of FCP isn't out yet.

Terence Curren
http://www.alphadogs.tv
http://www.digitalservicestation.com
Burbank,Ca


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Russell Lasson
Re: DPX 10-bit Log vs. AJA Kona 10-bit Log RGB Codec
on Nov 9, 2007 at 12:58:19 am

[Tcurren] "Using Redcine, make 2K DPX sequences from your Red footage."

Are you saying that I would end up with all of the footage in 2K DPX files and then edit them in FCP at 2K. That would be like 42TB of footage. (if the film had 60 hours of footage). I'm familiar with the "supported AKA Scatch" workflow currently. The production company that I'll be working with is shooting in Mexico for a spanish release and I"m not sure if they have access to a Scratch system. (Tax incentives might prevent them from taking work outside of Mexico)

As far as using FCP to edit Redcode, it currently works, but you can't render in a Redcode timeline. But it does playback natively without rendering. So if you only need to make straight cuts, then you're fine.

anyways,

I appreciate people's interest in the Red workflow, but my real question isn't about Red. It's about the AJA 10-bit LOG RGB codec and how it differs from DPX and the AJA 10-bit RGB codec. Does anyone have any information about this? I've emailed AJA support and haven't heard back yet.

Thanks,

-Russ




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Tcurren
Re: DPX 10-bit Log vs. AJA Kona 10-bit Log RGB Codec
on Nov 9, 2007 at 6:22:07 am

It was good to finally meet you to Gary. :-)

[Russell Lasson] "I appreciate people's interest in the Red workflow, but my real question isn't about Red. It's about the AJA 10-bit LOG RGB codec and how it differs from DPX and the AJA 10-bit RGB codec. Does anyone have any information about this? I've emailed AJA support and haven't heard back yet.
"


Your question is confusing. Do you mean how does DPX differ from AJA? The way it's written above I'm not following.

My understanding of AJAs handling of DPX is that it doesn't really change anything. It wraps them into a reference QT movie, but it hasn't altered them. If you are expecting to work and render in FCP in 10 bit RGB LOG you are out of luck unless you know some trick I don't.

Terence Curren
http://www.alphadogs.tv
http://www.digitalservicestation.com
Burbank,Ca


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Russell Lasson
Re: DPX 10-bit Log vs. AJA Kona 10-bit Log RGB Codec
on Nov 9, 2007 at 6:59:19 pm

[Tcurren] "My understanding of AJAs handling of DPX is that it doesn't really change anything. It wraps them into a reference QT movie, but it hasn't altered them."

That's right.

[Tcurren] "If you are expecting to work and render in FCP in 10 bit RGB LOG you are out of luck unless you know some trick I don't."

So with AJA 10-bit RGB LOG codec and DPX files loaded in with QT wrappers, if I render a title or dissolve or something, does it render at 8-bit RGB or 10-bit RGB LOG? (sequence is set to 10-bit RGB LOG.)

-Russ


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Wolf Austad
Re: DPX 10-bit Log vs. AJA Kona 10-bit Log RGB Codec
on Nov 9, 2007 at 7:25:28 pm

All RGB is rendered to 8-bit in FCP. One can apparently assemble in FCS2 Color with a float renderer, BUT as far as I know, there is still a bug in Final Cut Studio 2 and/or AJA Kona 3 drivers preventing the use of 4:4:4. That was the case last time I had a project needing this workflow. I have not seen nor heard of AJA posting a fix.

To work in 4:4:4 you have to revert back to FCP 5.1, but then you are stuck with 8-bit rendering which I think is clearly unacceptable for a film out...

Oh, and I am not really a post guy. Just a DP who care about my images... I know this because I had a few projects that we tried to put through this pipeline, and it didn't work.

P.S. IF there is a fix from AJA, I would love to know about it!

Wolf Austad
DP
Los Angeles based


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Russell Lasson
Re: DPX 10-bit Log vs. AJA Kona 10-bit Log RGB Codec
on Nov 9, 2007 at 7:34:04 pm

[Wolf Austad] "Oh, and I am not really a post guy. Just a DP who care about my images... "

Some of the most knowledgeable post people that I've met have just been DPs "who care about their images."

I'm in contact with AJA support discussing this right now. I'll keep you updated with what I learn.

-Russ


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Tcurren
Re: DPX 10-bit Log vs. AJA Kona 10-bit Log RGB Codec
on Nov 9, 2007 at 8:53:27 pm

You can render out to the same codec, but I don't believe FCP does 10 bit renders. Also, it won't be in Log space. AJA is not the one to answer this question as it's FCP that is doing the render.

I wouldn't be too hopeful of FCP being able to handle this level of work for a long time, if ever. That is why I mentioned Scratch. Probably the cheapest way to get the quality you want.

Now if you are happy in a linear space, with 8 bit rendering, knock yourself out. Otherwise just treat FCP as the offline tool.

Terence Curren
http://www.alphadogs.tv
http://www.digitalservicestation.com
Burbank,Ca


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Russell Lasson
Re: DPX 10-bit Log vs. AJA Kona 10-bit Log RGB Codec
on Nov 14, 2007 at 6:10:37 pm

Wolf,

AJA support really helped me to figure out what I needed to know. I'm not sure about the answer to your questions, but I'm sure AJA would be totally up for discussing it with you.

Good Luck!

-Russ


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gary adcock
Re: DPX 10-bit Log vs. AJA Kona 10-bit Log RGB Codec
on Nov 8, 2007 at 8:10:46 pm

MIke works mostly with BMD cards





gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows

http://library.creativecow.net/articles/adcock_gary/AJAIOHD.php


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