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K3 NTSC 23.98 Capture and Other Problems

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Sean ONeil
K3 NTSC 23.98 Capture and Other Problems
on Oct 26, 2007 at 2:15:34 am

I'm having serious problems. The Kona appears to be broken. I noticed this post from a while back with someone who seems to have a similar experience:
http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/98/864632

It's really messed up, and I'm having to use our Blackmagic systems to capture film-based digibetas.

First of all, the Capture and Sequence settings that come with the Kona 4.0 drivers are totally whacked. Hopefully they'll release new ones tomorrow.

The 23.98 ProRes settings are set for interlaced bottom field first (when you click on "Advanced") when of course it should be none. Also note that all ProRes capture settings have the audio gain set to 101, instead of 100. Very strange:

http://www.crosscreekentertain.com/tmp/Picture1.jpg
http://www.crosscreekentertain.com/tmp/Picture2.jpg

Back to the topic. The pulldown issue. NTSC 23.98 using ProRes (not HQ) does work. But it requires an offset of 1 in the AJA Control Panel even thought I'm using tapes with good cadence (A frame starts at 00). One would think the offset should be 0, the default, when the A frame starts at 0.

But when using ProRes (HQ), you cannot capture NTSC 23.98. Can't do it. Try it if you don't believe me. Create your own setup or whatever. It gets the cadence wrong every time - regardless of the offset (I've tried 0-4 multiple times).

23.98 ProRes media, if captured with the Kona 3 seems to be corrupted or something. When you import the media into FCP, it tells you it isn't optimized. No big deal, except when I export anything (self-contained Pro-Res, DVD MPEG, h264) I get messed up effects. There's a luma shift so everything gets bright during transitions!?! Yes, my Video Processing settings are correct, and changing them doesn't affect anything anyways.

These issues are specific to the Kona 3 and 23.98 ProRes. If I capture with a Blackmagic I don't have a single one of these problems. Also, if I capture 29.97 with the Kona, and run it through Cinema Tools, everything works fine.


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JeremyG
Re: K3 NTSC 23.98 Capture and Other Problems
on Oct 26, 2007 at 3:09:41 am

[Sean ONeil] "First of all, the Capture and Sequence settings that come with the Kona 4.0 drivers are totally whacked."

Yes, I noticed the ProRess422HQ really isn't HQ today. Honest mistake.



[Sean ONeil] " But it requires an offset of 1 in the AJA Control Panel even thought I'm using tapes with good cadence (A frame starts at 00)"

Perhaps that's the offset for your deck.

[Sean ONeil] "But when using ProRes (HQ), you cannot capture NTSC 23.98. Can't do it. Try it if you don't believe me. Create your own setup or whatever. It gets the cadence wrong every time - regardless of the offset (I've tried 0-4 multiple times).
"


I have to say I haven't tried this yet. You have me curious though. You did set the digitizer to 29.97 and a frame rate of 23.98 though, right?

What about a codec that's not ProRes?


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JeremyG
Re: K3 NTSC 23.98 Capture and Other Problems
on Oct 26, 2007 at 3:25:05 am

You know Sean, I have some more thoughts on this. The G5 Quad is a qualified ProRes computer according to Apple, but it's at the bottom of the list. Perhaps the Quad in combination with the Kona cannot compress ProRes while removing pulldown. I don't know for sure, but just offering a suggestion. I'd really like to try this out tomorrow to see if it works or doesn't work on an 8core, but I have a feeling I won't be able to get to it right away. If I get some time, I'll post right back.

Jeremy




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Sean ONeil
Re: K3 NTSC 23.98 Capture and Other Problems
on Oct 26, 2007 at 5:44:32 am

Jeremy,

Thanks for the response. I have an Intel Mac Pro quad 2.6ghz - not a G5 quad.

RS232 deck control isn't the issue. It's been calibrated. Even if it wasn't, testing all the pulldown offsets (0-4) one of them should work regardless.

I'm dead serious about the ProRes HQ thing. A few weeks ago I was trying to do this on the Kona 3 and I couldn't for the life of me get it to work. It was the wrong cadence for all the offsets and I just gave up and used a Decklink equipped Mac.

Today I throroughly tested everything and the problem does in fact go away for good if you use ProRes non-HQ. To be 100% positive, I duplicated the non-HQ ProRes 23.98 capture setting, and I didn't change anything except that I switched to HQ. And the problem returned.

I really think if someone else tries it they'll have the same problem - but I understand it could just be my system. I have a blackburst going to a DVW-500, and the sync reference is set to "Video In" in the AJA Control Panel. I did trash my AJA and FCP preferences and it didn't change anything. Haven't trashed my QT prefences yet (where are they?)

I have one correction to my first post regarding the luma bug when exporting. It is happening with the Blackmagic systems as well. Kona or BM capture of 23.98 ProRes (non-HQ) cannot be exported from FCP to any QT format. Otherwise there is a luma shift during any dissolves (similar to what happens with RGB codecs). But this problem doesn't seem to exist if the 23.98 ProRes comes from Cinema Tools (capture 29.97 and reverse to 23.98).


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Sean ONeil
Re: K3 NTSC 23.98 Capture and Other Problems
on Oct 26, 2007 at 5:50:38 am

[Sean ONeil] "I have one correction to my first post regarding the luma bug when exporting. It is happening with the Blackmagic systems as well. Kona or BM capture of 23.98 ProRes (non-HQ) cannot be exported from FCP to any QT format. Otherwise there is a luma shift during any dissolves (similar to what happens with RGB codecs). But this problem doesn't seem to exist if the 23.98 ProRes comes from Cinema Tools (capture 29.97 and reverse to 23.98). "

Forgot to mention, I found a workaround. Putting the 23.98 ProRes clips on an 8-bit Uncompressed sequence (which is RT dark green so no rendering needed - very nice!) solves the problem. From the UC sequence I can export any type of quicktime without the luma shift.


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gary adcock
Re: K3 NTSC 23.98 Capture and Other Problems
on Oct 26, 2007 at 1:16:31 pm

[Sean ONeil] " I duplicated the non-HQ ProRes 23.98 capture setting, and I didn't change anything except that I switched to HQ. And the problem returned."

Sean
that sounds like an Apple issue, not one from AJA, but I will check some of this later today.


" there is a luma shift during any dissolves (similar to what happens with RGB codecs). But this problem doesn't seem to exist if the 23.98 ProRes comes from Cinema Tools (capture 29.97 and reverse to 23.98). "


This one I have seen - Check to see whether the 444 FILTERING is ON in the non HQ version, it can force the RGB > YUV errors on renders.


gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows


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Sean ONeil
Re: K3 NTSC 23.98 Capture and Other Problems
on Oct 26, 2007 at 7:52:23 pm

[gary adcock] "This one I have seen - Check to see whether the 444 FILTERING is ON in the non HQ version, it can force the RGB > YUV errors on renders. "

It's unchecked.


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gary adcock
Re: K3 NTSC 23.98 Capture and Other Problems
on Oct 26, 2007 at 9:12:50 pm

Sean


I spent a couple of hours on this as a test this am - I am working on
pretty close to the same computer,
Quad intel 4G ram /10.4.10 / QT7.2 / FCP 6.01 / Kona V4 driver.

I see your issues- funny however I found that 8bit, 10bit, DV50 and DV25 setting all worked correctly - it only the 2 prores versions did not properly capture NTSC 23.98

gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows


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Sean ONeil
Re: K3 NTSC 23.98 Capture and Other Problems
on Oct 27, 2007 at 2:31:17 am

Cool. I'm not crazy :).

Non-HQ ProRes 23.98 is actually working if I set the offset to 1 (even though the A frame is 0).

I'm guessing they'll have new drivers out any moment now for Leopard support. Maybe that will fix it.


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