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BMD vs AJA insert accuracy

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Paul Provost
BMD vs AJA insert accuracy
on Oct 16, 2007 at 2:57:34 am

I am about to snap with the insert edit problems with the decklink. been using BMD cards for years yet it never seems to get fixed. no one seems to know if it is a BMD driver issue or FCP. I've read posts where Avid is solid on this, but that is not an option. Anyone know if AJA is accurate?


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JeremyG
Re: BMD vs AJA insert accuracy
on Oct 16, 2007 at 4:39:07 am

Yes, the Kona card can do accurate inserts.

What's the rest of your setup include?

Jeremy


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Arniepix
Re: BMD vs AJA insert accuracy
on Oct 16, 2007 at 3:20:28 pm

Which deck do you have? Not all decks can do an insert.

Arnie

Now in post: Peristroika, a film by Slava Tsukerman

http://www.arniepix.com/blog


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Bob Zelin
Re: BMD vs AJA insert accuracy
on Oct 16, 2007 at 8:35:46 pm

Hi Paul -
this is an AJA forum, but I can't blame Blackmagic for bad insert edits.
1) what VTR are you using
2) is your VTR and Blackmagic card both locked to a common black genlock source
3) when is the last time your VTR was maintained (pinch rollers, belts, etc.)

All the edit systems are "solid" - saying that AVID is solid, but Blackmagic is not (for insert edits on a Sony DVW-A500 for example) is rediculous.

I await your reply. If I find out that you have a Sony DSR-45 and no black generator, I will fly to your location, and give you a whoopin' !

Bob Zelin


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chrispy
Re: BMD vs AJA insert accuracy
on Oct 17, 2007 at 12:04:02 am

I just helped to upgrade a system to FC Studio 2 with Decklink Extreme and I updated to the latest 6.5.1 and did a number of insert edit tests to check on the accuracy and it was spot on on every attempt. I did not have to meddle with the deck control settings in FCP. The VTR is a DigiBeta DVW-A500P (I'm in PAL land) and we fed it with component video and analog audio from the Decklink card. Why not SDI ? The VTR SDI input kept flashing and we are trying to figure that one out.

I just did a check on the VTR and there's reference going in but not to the Decklink card but still the insert edits were accurate. I've since fed a reference to the Decklink card...it wasn't me Bob....it wasn't me...it was that guy....that guy !!!

Not sure if your problem is NTSC related but I'm working in PAL over here.

Hope this helps.

-chrispy


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Paul Provost
Re: BMD vs AJA insert accuracy
on Oct 17, 2007 at 2:59:08 am

thanks for the replies all. posting here to see if kona was working for you all as we are building a new finishing suite and are contemplating not going with one of Grant's products since digital voodoo days - solely because of the insert edit problems. just search the decklink forums and see I am far from alone in the insert edit problem.

Bob, I use to lug around 90 minute 2" tapes, thread 'em up and archive Mary Tyler Moore shows and Faulty Towers on the "new digital wonder" of D2! so no spankings for me. I've earned it.
we also use the best tech/engineer in LA to service our decks. religiously.

we have digibeta dvw a500 for record.
had grass valley sync gen going to all mac decklink extreme systems, a500 and J30s
have since pulled that and are syncing a500 to input video (via handy little switch on the front panel)
bad results both ways

again this is nothing new. have gotten so used to the problem over the years (also happened in a previous facility) that I rarely try it. but always the same and different. some times it works-sometimes early in-sometimes late in...
what the *&^^%*& ?
so if I can verify that FCP/Kona users find this problem alien to them I think it's a Kona3 for me.
I heard BMD recently acknowledged the problem to someone and said they would try to address it. I can't really count on that though.


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Bob Zelin
Re: BMD vs AJA insert accuracy
on Oct 17, 2007 at 8:07:48 pm

Paul -
what can I say - AJA stuff works. The Kona 3 is fantastic, and if you are in a hi end facility, I would recommend this above the new I/O HD anyway.

bob Zelin


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Paul Provost
Re: BMD vs AJA insert accuracy
on Oct 18, 2007 at 2:45:03 am

thanks Bob
kona 3 it is
while i've got your ear...
we're also going to take a look at the ecinema pro24 monitor for color correcting. seen it?
we have a couple of sony pvm 20L5, but just the sd sdi card. have only found one hd sdi card for it and they want $4k for it! (probably the only one left on the planet). probably better to go for one of the new high end LCDs?


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JeremyG
Re: BMD vs AJA insert accuracy
on Oct 18, 2007 at 3:41:37 am

After your Kona 3, buy nothing.

Skip the HD SDI connection and hook your Kona 3 analog outputs right into the 20L5.

Jeremy



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Paul Provost
Re: BMD vs AJA insert accuracy
on Oct 18, 2007 at 4:14:21 am

but i'm not sure exactly what is happening with either the hd sdi option card or the component out of the kona 3.
are these both downconverts to sd on this monitor?
would it be better to color correct on an hd lcd?


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JeremyG
Re: BMD vs AJA insert accuracy
on Oct 18, 2007 at 4:31:07 am

[Paul Provost] "but i'm not sure exactly what is happening with either the hd sdi option car"

Nothing but taking your HD SDI from your Kona and displaying it on the monitor.


[Paul Provost] "or the component out of the kona 3.
"


Whatever you want, HD, SD, RGB, YUV, N10, Beta, your choice.

[Paul Provost] "are these both downconverts to sd on this monitor?
"


No, the monitor supports HD, if you wantt o downconvert with the KOna, you can.


[Paul Provost] "would it be better to color correct on an hd lcd?
"


None that I have seen, but I have not seen the eCinema in person but it looks good in the advertisssments.


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Paul Provost
Re: BMD vs AJA insert accuracy
on Oct 18, 2007 at 5:02:53 am

first. what are you doing up at this hour?
second. what am I doing up at this hour?
third. the 20L5 is HD native?!?! why the hell did they discontinue the card?
man that sdi hd option sounds sweet. tech notes look like resolution/frame rates might be limited, but to get HD on a crt...
we get some MAJOR cinematographers ($100m+ big budget features) in our joint (we do their showreels) and it would be nice not to have to go to LCD for HD.
is the $4k worth it for the card?
why why why? (i hate sony btw)


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JeremyG
Re: BMD vs AJA insert accuracy
on Oct 18, 2007 at 5:25:21 am

[Paul Provost] "first. what are you doing up at this hour?
"


Compressing 6 wmvs for a client review

[Paul Provost] "second. what am I doing up at this hour?"

Don't know...

[Paul Provost] "third. the 20L5 is HD native?!?! why the hell did they discontinue the card?
"


Why'd they discontinue the monitor?



[Paul Provost] "man that sdi hd option sounds sweet. tech notes look like resolution/frame rates might be limited, but to get HD on a crt...
"


save your money, you don't need it.

[Paul Provost] "is the $4k worth it for the card?"

No, it's not. Analog looks just as great.



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Paul Provost
Re: BMD vs AJA insert accuracy
on Oct 18, 2007 at 6:37:25 am

well obviously i can check the analogue out with the kona 3 when we get it and see...
i'm just a 601 fan and am fascinated at what it can do
so test and test
thanks much for your input
sometimes rare to get an experienced reply


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walter biscardi
Re: BMD vs AJA insert accuracy
on Oct 18, 2007 at 11:15:00 am

[Paul Provost] "well obviously i can check the analogue out with the kona 3 when we get it and see..."

We have the Analog Component inputs for both of our Sony PVM L5/1 monitors and color grade all our HD broadcast shows this way. The cost of HD-SDI input is ridiculous so I spent that money on professional Panasonic HD Plasma displays instead. All the networks who have received our shows have said we're delivering the best looking HD they are receiving so I know our grading is good.

As for eCinema, you do understand that the high quality grading monitor is $24,000. That $4,000 monitor is lousy, I saw it at NAB and others who have seen it confirmed my vision of it.

As reported in the Color forum and in my Blog, I have done a brief test with an $8,000 TV Logic LCD display and it really IS a potential CRT replacement. We had it in the shop for about 2 1/2 hours for a brief demo and they are going to bringing back another one for about a week so I can do some side by side grading comparisons with it and my PVM L5. The most impressive thing about the monitor was actually the SD display. It was very clean and accurately shows interlacing issues.

But as Jeremy has said, HD-SDI is a waste of money for the L5 monitor. Component out of the Konas is awesome.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
http://www.biscardicreative.com
HD Editorial & Animation for Broadcast and independent productions.

All Things Apple Podcast! http://cowcast.creativecow.net/all_things_apple/index.html

Read my blog! http://blogs.creativecow.net/WalterBiscardi


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Paul Provost
Re: BMD vs AJA insert accuracy
on Oct 18, 2007 at 6:37:39 am

well obviously i can check the analogue out with the kona 3 when we get it and see...
i'm just a 601 fan and am fascinated at what it can do
so test and test
thanks much for your input
sometimes rare to get an experienced reply


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gary adcock
Re: BMD vs AJA insert accuracy
on Oct 18, 2007 at 12:44:04 pm

[Paul Provost] "we're also going to take a look at the ecinema pro24 monitor for color correcting. seen it? "

I prefer the Cinetal monitors at this level, they offer better controls, LUT support on Set,
HDSDI pass-thru and many other features.

eCinema has kinda fallen back- not delivering products on time, long time between updates, etc. Most of the west coast has started moving towards Cinetals.




gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows


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Paul Provost
Re: BMD vs AJA insert accuracy
on Oct 18, 2007 at 2:11:44 pm

haven't even heard of the cinetals.
guess I will check that out.
in the meantime using the L5s for free sounds good...


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Jaap Verdenius
Re: BMD vs AJA insert accuracy
on Nov 1, 2007 at 9:43:20 pm

I reported an issue with the first first frame on insert having a duplicated field with BMD in May - don't know if that is the inaccuracy you are talking about, but
anyway they fixed it in the 6.6 driver. I just tested it on a Multibridge today. It took them a few months, but it is solved.

Aja has its own inaccuracies. Last week I found that Capture Offset on the PAL SD device control cannot be adjusted correctly. Probably a problem of how the driver talks to FCP, as their own VTRXChange application doesn't have it.

Jaap


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