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Ben Holmes
Kona field issue
on Oct 10, 2007 at 1:25:49 am

Hi all

I have posted this in the FCP forum as well - apologies for double post.

I have a 2.7ghz Dual G5 with a Kona LH. It has been recently ugraded to FCP 6.0.1 and Kona version 4.0.

I am using Uncompressed 10-bit for capture and sequence - in PAL. All my settings appear correct - upper field first for the sequence.

When I drop a clip in the timeline from an edited piece and then razor blade up the shots for treatment and editing, the cuts are happening between the wrong fields. In other words, I am cutting on an existing cut, and I get a one field flash of the shot on the other side of the cut left over. I have also noticed that when I jog back and forth over the cut point, my monitor and the canvas do not always show the same frame with the Kona card set to display a single field in the Kona panel. If this is set to 'one frame' the the Kona setup, over the cut point you get a frame containing one field of incoming and outgoing shots.

I have trashed prefs and reloaded drivers. In several years of using Kona I have NEVER had this issue. I suspect this may be a PAL issue. Can anyone enlighten me? Any idea, however obvious or outlandish greatfully accepted.

Many thanks

Ben


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Kona field issue
on Oct 10, 2007 at 2:07:45 am

[Ben Holmes] "I am using Uncompressed 10-bit for capture and sequence - in PAL. All my settings appear correct - upper field first for the sequence."

Ben,

Shouldn't the seq. be lower field first?

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY™

A forum host of Creative COW's Business & Marketing, and Indie Film & Documentary forums.





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gary adcock
Re: Kona field issue
on Oct 10, 2007 at 12:30:45 pm

[David Roth Weiss] "Shouldn't the seq. be lower field first?"

NO
PAL is Upper first- in SD and in 25/50i HD (when you are working in interlace)

gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Kona field issue
on Oct 10, 2007 at 12:52:58 pm

[gary adcock] "PAL is Upper first- in SD"

Right!!! In the three years since I last worked in Europe my mind has obviously turned to mush. Thanks Gary.



David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY™

A forum host of Creative COW's Business & Marketing, and Indie Film & Documentary forums.





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tinboxtwo
Re: Kona field issue
on Oct 10, 2007 at 2:17:18 am

try toggling between "single field" and "full frame"in the codec tab of the kona control panel.
hope that helps


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JeremyG
Re: Kona field issue
on Oct 10, 2007 at 2:59:25 pm

A couple of questions for you. How do you cut on an existing cut? Just trying to understand what you mean by that.

And was this project started in FCP5? Check for a 'shift fields' filter on your timeline footage.

Also, if you have set up single frame viewing on your Kona card, it is quite possible that your monitor and canvas won't match as the canvas will show only a deinterlaced version of your footage (as it can't display interlace), and the kona will show you one of the fields.

Jeremy





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Ben Holmes
Re: Kona field issue
on Oct 10, 2007 at 5:59:29 pm

Jeremy

Sorry for delay, been flat out.

[JeremyG] "How do you cut on an existing cut"

I've captured a sequence of shots already cut together. I am trying to seperate those back out into individual shots. Hope this makes sense - please don't ask me to explain the workflow, it's a bit individual. Usually when I do this, I line up the timeline on the first frame of the next shot, razor blade it and voila - I have two seperated shots I can move around the timeline.


[JeremyG] "And was this project started in FCP5? Check for a 'shift fields' filter on your timeline footage"

No, and there is none.


[JeremyG] "Also, if you have set up single frame viewing on your Kona card, it is quite possible that your monitor and canvas won't match as the canvas will show only a deinterlaced version of your footage (as it can't display interlace), and the kona will show you one of the fields. "

Originally I thought this was the issue. If I set the Kona to display the whole frame, when I am on the last frame of one shot, it shows a flickering frame made up of one field from the outgoing, and one of the incoming. Making a cut on this point leaves a flash field on the top of the newly shortened clip.

Sorry - I fear that trying to explain this is tricky, but I hope that extra info helps. I have been using Kona's for a long time, and have never had an issue like this - it's literally impossible to seperate two shots in a single clip cleanly. I should add that in further tests this is not happening on EVERY cut, just to complicate matters, but as I can only see the problem on my monitor, and not on the screen, it's easy to end up with flash frames in an edit, when you remove shots from an existing clip. I also cannot slow down video smoothly, despite using the Kona capture and sequence presets unaltered. Clips drop on my timeline without requiring a render, by the way.

I notice that the menus within the capture preset have changed somewhat in FCP 6.0 - especially the advanced tab in the video section. Perhaps I have an issue with the Kona preset in PAL - This happened to me many years ago with a Voodoo card, when the manufacturer admitted there was an issue with the supplied PAL preset.

Any further help greatly appreciated.

Ben



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JeremyG
Re: Kona field issue
on Oct 10, 2007 at 8:56:27 pm

You did install the latest drivers for FCP6, yes?

What happens if you delete the footage under the footage you have placed on top?

I am still struggling to figure out what you are doing, but it's cool. I'll try and help anyway.


Jeremy


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Matt Larson
Re: Kona field issue
on Oct 10, 2007 at 9:13:34 pm

[JeremyG] "
I am still struggling to figure out what you are doing, but it's cool. I'll try and help anyway."


I'll try and put on my mediator hat: I think what he is saying is that he has an edited show that has been laid off to tape. He has REDIGITIZED that show from the tape and is using the blade tool to cut the redigitized edited program into individual shots.



Have you tried opening this footage in Quicktime to see if you see any field issues there? I know you can't cut with the blade, but maybe you can visually see if anything looks off.

Another thought is to put this into a sequence with Upper Field first (if that's what you need it to be) and save it out as a self contained QT. Try it with a short test clip. Might force things back to the right order.



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JeremyG
Re: Kona field issue
on Oct 10, 2007 at 9:20:58 pm

[Matt Larson] "I'll try and put on my mediator hat: I think what he is saying is that he has an edited show that has been laid off to tape. He has REDIGITIZED that show from the tape and is using the blade tool to cut the redigitized edited program into individual shots. "


That's what i took from it as well.






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Ben Holmes
Re: Kona field issue
on Oct 10, 2007 at 9:27:20 pm

Just saw these replies - you are both correct. I can try the export option, however it's not a practical solution as I am in a live enviroment and don't have the time to do it - I'll try it before we go on air tomorrow.

I just don't understand how the field order got wrong in the first place. I am using the Kona PAL presets. Kona's reponse was to suggest I try trashing prefs. I am afraid I am a few years past the first tier of tech support, so I have to now wait for the second tier to kick in - so far no response in 24 hours to my reply.

Ben


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Ben Holmes
Re: Kona field issue
on Oct 10, 2007 at 9:22:06 pm

Hi Jeremy

Yes - I have the latest version of Kona drivers - 4.0. I suspect this may be the problem, as this did not occur before the upgrade.

Let me try to explain this better. I am capturing an edit effectively - in other words it is a sequence of shots with cuts between each shot. Think of it as capturing a previously exported timeline with multiple shots in it, one which has already been laid off to tape. All I am doing is putting this edit into the timeline and cutting it back up into its individual shots. When I locate the first frame of any shot in this clip I am razor-blading it so I split the edit back up into it's individual shots. Sometimes when I do this, I appear to be cued up BETWEEN the two shots, so the frame I am on contains one field from the incoming and outgoing shots. When I make the cut, I get a field of the other shot left behind, which I then have to remove, by shortening the shot by one frame.

I know how much help you give people on these forums Jeremy. Any help you can give me would be appreciated - I understand the field/frame setting on the Kona can be changed on the output, I have done this, and when I am on a 'bad cut' I see a flickering image made up of a field from each shot. I have NEVER seen this before on my systems, and it's a real bore.

Thanks again

Ben


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JeremyG
Re: Kona field issue
on Oct 10, 2007 at 9:29:42 pm

What happens if you make a cut that is NOT on a previous cut point? Does it happen then?


This is a shot in the dark, but have you uninstalled and then reinstalled the drivers?


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Ben Holmes
Re: Kona field issue
on Oct 10, 2007 at 9:41:37 pm

Jeremy

I have not tried a reinstall, I'll have to give it a go tomorrow as the machine is in heavy use. I'll report back then to see if I can narrow the problem down at all. In the meantime, I have decided to hold off upgrades on two other systems to FCP6/Kona 4.0 until I can get this sorted. Not a happy bunny. It's just 625/25i for gawds sakes!

Get back to you tomorrow - thanks as ever for speedy and thoughtful replies.

Ben


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Tom Brooks
Re: Kona field issue
on Oct 10, 2007 at 10:14:45 pm

Was the tape from which you are capturing made from a 50P source? In that case, cuts in the 50P sequence can happen every 50th of a second and a downconvert to SD (50i) could have what appears to be cuts done on the second field. This came up in regard to another post made by Leftycutter, I believe.


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Ben Holmes
Re: Kona field issue
on Oct 10, 2007 at 10:26:08 pm

Tom

Unfortunately it's all good ol' 25i.

Ben


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cofe
Re: Kona field issue
by
on Oct 10, 2007 at 11:59:13 pm

Ben
I know what you going through! Had some problems with an Aurora card where fields were swapped :-(
I created a short DV-Pal clip (3MB) where each field is marked with 1 or 2 and a little arrow progresses from left to right. Using this clip you can easily demonstrate if A. your card is playing out correctly B. your deck recording correctly and C. you FCP capturing correctly.
send me a mail to cofe[at]exemail[dot]com[dot]au and I can send you the file.
Cheers
Carsten


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JeremyG
Re: Kona field issue
on Oct 10, 2007 at 10:36:00 pm

[Ben Holmes] "thanks as ever for speedy and thoughtful replies.
"


Thanks for the sentiment and you are always welcome.





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Tom Brooks
Re: Kona field issue
on Oct 11, 2007 at 12:08:35 am

It's weird that only SOME of the cuts are this way. If you shift fields on the whole clip, I assume the OTHER cuts will now be off--or not?


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Ben Holmes
Re: Kona field issue
on Oct 12, 2007 at 10:09:43 pm

Just an update. I have had little time to work with the system, as it is in near constant use - I will have to do more comprehensive tests next week.

Fundementally, the field order appears to be wrong on the Kona output, so that any clip slowed down looks horrible. The field order file I was kindly sent seems to show the clip going into an uncompressed timeline upper field first. The problem seems to be with the Kona card output. Shift fields does not fix the problem. Reinstalling the Kona drivers does not seem to fix it either - and I can't risk a codec downgrade in the middle of this job.

As I said before, I'm a long time Kona user and I'm stumped. I'll be sure to report back when I have a chance to take it all apart and compare it to another system at base.

Thanks for all your help.

Ben


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Simmie
Re: Kona field issue
on Oct 15, 2007 at 10:32:31 am

Are you cutting something that's been standards converted? Say from NTSC to PAL? It's happened to me when I've cut NTSC to PAL converted material...

-Simmie
1 MacPro - Kona 3
2 G5 - Kona LH
2 G4s - Cinewave
xbox360, Wii, PSP, PS2
http://www.speak.co.uk


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mbloflin
Re: Kona field issue
on Oct 17, 2007 at 2:22:59 pm

Ben,

Were these cuts 'edited' or were some from live 'switcher' production? Through the years with various switchers from Sony to GVG to DD35 we have had this issue. This may not be what you are facing but for anyone else reading this maybe this applies.

Switchers can cut on any field. So you will get times when you cut on your timeline that one field is at the end of one clip and the other field is at the beginning of the other. However, most switchers do have a option or switch to force cuts on frames only which in theory eliminates the problem, assuming you have your facility setup and timed properly.

As a side note we have been going back and forth with ProRez and field dominance issues. Some of the Apple presets are Upper field first (good for you with PAL but bad for NTSC) and we ended up with a mess of problems with 6 editors all beginning to work in ProRez. Even when we think we have it all smoothed out it keeps causing problems between FCP, Compressor, DVD SP, SD/HDV footage, etc. We have actually had one show make it to air (or at least the uplink) with reversed fields... opps. Think we finally now have all working right.

Brad Loflin


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Ben Holmes
Re: Kona field issue
on Oct 23, 2007 at 10:32:04 pm

Dear all

I have just spent the weekend on another system - recently installed on a Quad core Intel Mac Pro. A Kona LH card and BOB on a system running FCP 5. It had the latest versions of QT.

I had held off installing FCP6 after the problems I had faced above, but I was dismayed to find the same problems. If I wanted to slow a clip down to 50%, I had to de-interlace it to get rid of field judder caused by the capture/playback. Of course, these issues were not visible on the computer monitor, just on the interlaced monitor.

PLEASE, can anyone in PAL-land (as I am sure this issue is not an NTSC issue) try to duplicate this for me - just capture using the uncompressed 10-bit SD codec, and slow it to 50%. Let me know if it's smooth - with or without field blending.

No - this is not a sequence or capture settings issue, so please my American collegues, don't tell me it is. This is driving me crazy.

I am planning to post this as a new thread as well, to see if I can get AJA's attention - they have not replied to my support follow-up.

Ben


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photomonkey
Re: Kona field issue
on Nov 7, 2007 at 11:02:17 am

I am also suffering a similar issue with my Kona setup.

I'm capturing a live show (PAL) and editing using the FCP Studio 2 suite. This a a project where every last frame must be QCd for security purposes. The show looks fine in FCP. It is a cuts only show and there are no issues or artifacts where the cuts are.

When we export our finished video from FCP and review frame by frame in streamclip, everywhere there was a switched cut, there are frames that look as though we caught them mid dissolve. The only solution that I have been able to find thus far has been to deinterlace the video we captured before editing. This has a noticeable impact on the quality of the image and negates our investment in nice cameras, etc.

I'll be anxiously awaiting some resolution to this matter...

Cheers!


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JeremyG
Re: Kona field issue
on Nov 7, 2007 at 3:30:08 pm

I would contact support@aja.com immediately.

Jeremy



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Ben Holmes
Re: Kona field issue
on Nov 8, 2007 at 12:55:32 am

I sincerely hope (and I say this as someone who has a great deal of respect for AJA's support) that he has more luck than me. They have not followed up on two emails I sent them on this topic, and only replied to the first one with the usual standard responses - a fair first reply, but one I had hoped we could move on from.

I fear this may be the problem with dealing with a US company on a PAL issue. I hope someone there can prove me wrong, and actually test the PAL capture with PAL equipment. Until someone does, I am going to assume something is fundementally wrong here. At present, I cannot slow down any footage in the timeline without de-interlacing it first, or I get field judder, on top of the issue with 'cuts' I mentioned before. Not ideal.

Ben


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