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AJA Audio Bad, Line out Good

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Bob Cole
AJA Audio Bad, Line out Good
on Sep 10, 2007 at 2:39:42 pm

short version: I captured material via HDV, which played back fine. I then added a new Convergent Design HD-Connect MI, captured material via SDI (ProRes422). The capture quickly aborted due to "VTR Problem." I then disconnected the HD-Connect's Firewire-to-RS422, and captured the tape as an uncontrollable device (w/o timecode of course).

Result: audio clicks, sync problems, dropped frames.
Added Result: HDV files have same problems, despite playing properly before.

I have done everything I can think of: trash prefs, uninstall Kona software, restart, use Kona VTR Xchange, isolate computer from all firewire inputs (which fixed a similar problem once).

Oddly, I can play the HDV captures with no issue, as long as I use FCP/Audio-VideoSettings/Audio Line Out. But when I switch that setting back to AJA Kona audio, I get the audio clicks and dropped frames.

Eventually I'd like to make the HD-Connect work, but for now I'd be happy to be back in business, and fix the problem which using the HD-Connect apparently triggered.

Long version:I've been having problems for a long time when trying to use my Kona LHe for high definition captures. Here's an earlier thread: http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/98/865467

Is this a hardware issue? Since I keep having similar problems, any basic suggestions? Including hiring a local FCP guru to come in and fix everything?

Bob Cole

MacPro 2 x 3GHz dualcore; 2 GB 667MHz
Kona LHe
Sony HDV Z1
Sony HDV M25U
HD-Connect MI
Betacam UVW1800
DVCPro AJ-D650


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JeremyG
Re: AJA Audio Bad, Line out Good
on Sep 10, 2007 at 3:19:50 pm

What is your reference set to in the Kona CP?


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Bob Cole
Re: AJA Audio Bad, Line out Good
on Sep 10, 2007 at 3:25:12 pm

[JeremyG] "What is your reference set to in the Kona CP?"

freerun

MacPro 2 x 3GHz dualcore; 2 GB 667MHz
Kona LHe
Sony HDV Z1
Sony HDV M25U
HD-Connect MI
Betacam UVW1800
DVCPro AJ-D650


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JeremyG
Re: AJA Audio Bad, Line out Good
on Sep 10, 2007 at 3:35:45 pm

Does the HD Connect accept reference? Have you tried referencing the HD Connect and Kona?

It sounds like a ref issue to me.

Jeremy


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Bob Cole
Re: AJA Audio Bad, Line out Good
on Sep 10, 2007 at 4:03:46 pm

[JeremyG] "Does the HD Connect accept reference? Have you tried referencing the HD Connect and Kona?"

No reference into the HD Connect (the picture on the HD Connect capture looked fine.)

I still have the problem after taking the HD-Connect out of the loop entirely (disconnected every wire to it). I've done all the normal things: deleted prefs, reloaded Kona software (three times so far), restarted MacPro...

Just captured a short HDV clip. It plays back fine until I try Audio-Video Settings: AJA Kona audio.

I took your earlier advice and made Kona CP visible to see whether the ref in setting changes -- it's still Free Run.

It's really odd that when I play back a previously successful clip, I get the same lost frames/audio clicks. This is very bad for me, because I have a deadline of tomorrow on an edit that I apparently can't use the Kona card to export now.

I wonder whether it's hardware. But it's so strange that this problem came back just when I tried SDI input.

I am in rather desperate straits at this point, and would appreciate any advice! It must be something so simple I can't think of it.

Thanks for your help.

MacPro 2 x 3GHz dualcore; 2 GB 667MHz
Kona LHe
Sony HDV Z1
Sony HDV M25U
HD-Connect MI
Betacam UVW1800
DVCPro AJ-D650


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JeremyG
Re: AJA Audio Bad, Line out Good
on Sep 10, 2007 at 4:17:44 pm

Have you used an AJA Kona HDV easy setup?

Jeremy


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JeremyG
Re: AJA Audio Bad, Line out Good
on Sep 10, 2007 at 4:23:10 pm

What version of FCP, QT, and Kona drivers is everything?

Did you uninstall the Kona drivers before reinstalling?


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Bob Cole
intermittent hardware issue?
on Sep 10, 2007 at 5:25:52 pm

Thanks Jeremy. This seems to be a very weird hardware problem.

(to answer your good questions, FCP, QT, Kona all up-to-date. I uninstalled Kona before reinstallation.)

Under guidance of AJA tech support I swapped out the break-out box, found the problem disappeared. Then I reinstalled the break-out box and selectively plugged in various inputs/outputs. When I unplugged the Analog Video In, the playback problem disappeared. Go figure. The Analog Video In actually works for input -- but aborted the playback.

Further muddle: when I replugged the Analog Video In cables, everything now works. So AJA is now replacing the break-out box and the umbilical.

Does this make any sense at all?

MacPro 2 x 3GHz dualcore; 2 GB 667MHz
Kona LHe
Sony HDV Z1
Sony HDV M25U
HD-Connect MI
Betacam UVW1800
DVCPro AJ-D650


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JeremyG
Re: intermittent hardware issue?
on Sep 10, 2007 at 7:06:54 pm

[Bob Cole] "Does this make any sense at all?"

Not really. Glad AJA was able to track it down.


Thanks for posting the results.


Jeremy



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Bob Cole
Thank you for your help
on Sep 10, 2007 at 7:17:36 pm

Thanks for helping out. When your deadline is looming and you have one machine, and it ain't workin'... it's mighty nice to get a helping hand.

Bob C

MacPro 2 x 3GHz dualcore; 2 GB 667MHz
Kona LHe
Sony HDV Z1
Sony HDV M25U
HD-Connect MI
Betacam UVW1800
DVCPro AJ-D650


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JeremyG
Re: Thank you for your help
on Sep 10, 2007 at 7:35:04 pm

No worries, Bob.

Hope it new BOB solves it all!

Jeremy


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Bob Cole
update to update
on Sep 12, 2007 at 5:52:10 pm

The Plot Thickens. I think the bottom line is: Kona LHe is sometimes (not always) confused by multiple video inputs. And when the LHe's confused, hell breaks loose.

Episode One ended with a brand-new AJA KL Box and cable, kindly provided by AJA Support. With that pristine device, I again attempted to capture (HDV tape-> Sony M25U deck-> Convergent Design HD-Connect HDMI-> Kona LHe SDI input-> FCP Apple ProRes).

FCP gave me this message: "Tape trouble. Check VTR. Do not attempt to eject tape or use transport without checking VTR." I clicked "OK" a couple of times, getting the same message, until a new message appeared: "Capture Now has reached the end of the tape..." (I had a lot of trouble just shuttling the tape through FCP, as well.)

I disconnected the iLink/Firewire cable, sacrificing timecode and deck control, and the 50-minute capture SEEMED to work. But it played back out of sync, with the familiar audio clicks.

Not only that, but a previously-recorded file (same setup) which had previously played fine, now had audio clicks and dropped frames.

On the advice of Convergent Design I disconnected the video analog component cables that led from the Sony M25 to the Kona LHe. When I did that, the previously-recorded file played fine again, and when I captured with the analog cables disconnected from the Kona LHe, everything is fine, with deck control/video/clean audio, in sync.

Oddly, the AJA Control Panel selected SDI as the input, when I had the analog component video hooked up. But there must be some conflict somewhere. Power cycling the HD-Connect may also have helped.

Bob C



MacPro 2 x 3GHz dualcore; 2 GB 667MHz
Kona LHe
Sony HDV Z1
Sony HDV M25U
HD-Connect MI
Betacam UVW1800
DVCPro AJ-D650


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gary adcock
Re: update to update
on Sep 13, 2007 at 8:28:20 am

Bob

your cobbled setup is your issue. I do not understand the CD box, when you can take the analog audio and video out of the deck straight into the Kona card?

Kona Cards want to handle the deck control, without it they do get testy. you are using FW.

When you have video in on more than one input you really need to have Trilevel sync in HD to keep the clocking correct, otherwise the Kona card will keep trying to match a signal by bouncing between the Video IN signals as that is set as the default.





gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows


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Bob Cole
Re: update to update
on Sep 13, 2007 at 1:00:12 pm

[gary adcock] "
your cobbled setup is your issue. I do not understand the CD box, when you can take the analog audio and video out of the deck straight into the Kona card?


Hi Gary,

True but not the whole issue.

True: When I unconfused the Kona by disconnecting component video in, the audio click/sync problem disappeared*. (The * is because even though the CD box converts Firewire to RS422, I still have occasional problems with classic HDV timecode breaks. And those problems are severe, with FCP repeatedly reporting major VTR problems before announcing that I've reached the end of the tape -- at the start of a reel. But so far, with just a few hours of evidence, those problems seem to be confined to the beginning of reels rather than in the middle of takes, as has happened when I used straight Firewire for deck control.)

But my troubles with audio clicks and sync started before the CD box. Here's an earlier thread:
http://forums.creativecow.net/thread/98/865467

After that earlier episode I finally bought a real deck, the Sony M25, which did not solve the audio click/sync problem. After that, I just abandoned trying to make HD work for awhile, and resorted to DVCAM and HDV.

Gary, you were kind enough to help me with my earlier problem, when I was using component video and analog audio from the Sony camera into the Kona LHe. In that thread, you advised me that "the timing of your signal needs to be re-calibrated since you are not using any sort of "clocking" to generate a fixed sync signal for the audio to lock its timing to."

I now suspect that I failed to pick up on that comment of yours. What exactly were you advising me to do? I have heard of trilevel sync, but JeremyG has advised me to use "freerun" in the AJA Control Panel, and that seems to work.

To summarize: the CD box works, as long as you disconnect the component video to the Kona. I'm able to capture hour-long tapes, and audio sync is maintained. Using the RS422 converter in the CD box, classic HDV firewire problems seem to be diminished, though not eliminated. (I still haven't picked an HD monitor, so I can't speak to the quality difference between SDI and component video.)

Gary, could you help me understand your comment:
Kona Cards want to handle the deck control, without it they do get testy. you are using FW." With the CD box, I'm only using FW as far as the CD box, which converts it to RS422. (I recall that someone (JeremyG?) wrote that the MacPro has issues with FW sync.)

At any rate, knock on wood, it works, mostly. I now wonder whether I should have bought the Sony 1500 deck -- if that would have improved the deck control/timecode break issues.

Thanks very much for reading this encyclopedic thread. And thanks to AJA Support for hanging in there with me. We'll get it done.

Bob C



MacPro 2 x 3GHz dualcore; 2 GB 667MHz
Kona LHe
Sony HDV Z1
Sony HDV M25U
HD-Connect MI
Betacam UVW1800
DVCPro AJ-D650


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gary adcock
Re: update to update
on Sep 13, 2007 at 3:35:45 pm

[Bob Cole] "(The * is because even though the CD box converts Firewire to RS422, I still have occasional problems with classic HDV timecode breaks. And those problems are severe, with FCP repeatedly reporting major VTR problems before announcing that I've reached the end of the tape -- at the start of a reel"

Make sure to set the time and date on your camera, and increase the handles on your captures to 6-8 sec. Welcome to HDV

the audio popping could be from a bad FW cable-- have you tried a shielded cable (magnetic chokes on the cable)

" What exactly were you advising me to do? I have heard of trilevel sync, but JeremyG has advised me to use "freerun" in the AJA Control Panel, and that seems to work. "

but you have 2 video- in signals, Free run and Video in Assume that you are have only one input or that you have some level of sync.

gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows


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Bob Cole
Re: update to update
on Sep 13, 2007 at 4:29:04 pm

[gary adcock] "but you have 2 video- in signals, Free run and Video in Assume that you are have only one input or that you have some level of sync."

No, I disconnected the analog component video in. I still don't know what this "tri-level sync" means. Do I need to know?

Didn't know about setting the time/date on the HDV camera. Thanks for that tip.

re: good shielded cable. What's a good brand? Iogear? Monster? I always suspect with the latter that I'm paying for marketing.

Bob C

MacPro 2 x 3GHz dualcore; 2 GB 667MHz
Kona LHe
Sony HDV Z1
Sony HDV M25U
HD-Connect MI
Betacam UVW1800
DVCPro AJ-D650


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walter biscardi
Re: update to update
on Sep 13, 2007 at 4:30:13 pm

[Bob Cole] "I still don't know what this "tri-level sync" means. Do I need to know?"

Just means it provides different levels of sync for SD and HD. Look at AJA's Gen 10 in their Converters section. That's what it is and it's the cheapest version of one out there.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
http://www.biscardicreative.com
HD Editorial & Animation for Broadcast and independent productions.

All Things Apple Podcast! http://cowcast.creativecow.net/all_things_apple/index.html

Read my blog! http://blogs.creativecow.net/WalterBiscardi


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