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720P 23.98 not RT on Kona 3

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Tcurren
720P 23.98 not RT on Kona 3
on Sep 7, 2007 at 3:29:29 am

Beeen fighting this for a while now. Each time someone brings in a 720P 23.98 sequence DVCPRO HD QT. There is no way to get it out in RT. We end up just exporting it to a 1080P movie and then everything is cool.

We deal with a lot of different projects of varying frame rates but this one consistently causes problems. This happens on any of our Kona 3 systems, in either 5.1.2, 5.1.4, or FCS2.

I do see a difference between a QT created out of FCP using the Kona DVCPROHD 24 codec and the native 720P 24 codec. In QT player one is 16 bit (little endian) and the other is 32 bit (little endian). Since most of our clients don't have Kona cards, they are using the built in codec.

Also, when in the 720P project, we can view a parked frame out of the Kona, but the upconvert to 1080 23.98 Psf is always scrambled. Doesn't matter what we use for sync.

Terence Curren
http://www.alphadogs.tv
http://www.digitalservicestation.com
Burbank,Ca


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msacci
Re: 720P 23.98 not RT on Kona 3
on Sep 7, 2007 at 4:11:38 am

Can you post a sample clip, I have a Kona3 and don't have any issues. The Kona uses the generic QT codec. Is the 32 bit (little endian) the audio streams?

For clarification is the problem just with the video out not playing or timeline needing to be rendered.


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tcurren
Re: 720P 23.98 not RT on Kona 3
on Sep 7, 2007 at 4:48:10 pm

2 issues. the first is that the QT movies we bring in, which match the timeline and Kona setting exactly, need to be rendered.

2nd, the 1080 upconvert doesn't work for this format even though it is an option in the Kona card.

Again, these are QTs from out of house that people bring in to put out to tape. The only format we have this problem with is the 720P 23.98.


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gary adcock
Re: 720P 23.98 not RT on Kona 3
on Sep 7, 2007 at 4:51:39 am

hey T

there i something wrong. I do this all day long and never render, on a K3 setup you should be getting at least 2-3 layers of RT

you should be using the AJA KONA 720p 23.98 Varicam settings, if you are using the one that is NOT marked for "Varicam" all it will will do is output 1080 23.98 Psf. ( not true p)





gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows


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tcurren
Re: 720P 23.98 not RT on Kona 3
on Sep 7, 2007 at 4:49:51 pm

I tired the Varicam settings also but it made no difference in the need for a render. Sinc e these QTs are coming in from folks without Kona cards, I'm guessing they are captured via firewire originally in the DVCPRO HD codec, then rendered out of FCP that way.


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msacci
Re: 720P 23.98 not RT on Kona 3
on Sep 7, 2007 at 8:07:30 pm

That would not make a different. This would be the same thing for P2 users, you are not coming through the Kona but there is no problem playing out. I have also captured Varicam tapes via firewire to get the pull down removed on ingesting and once again the Kona plays them out just fine.

Normally there should not be a problem, but since there is someone in the workflow is setting something wrong.

If the client is exporting the footage are they making it truly 24P instead of the correct 23.98?

I know for me I have to see the problem to be able to find out what's wrong. If you could post even a 2 second clip it might be easier to get an solution.


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gary adcock
Re: 720P 23.98 not RT on Kona 3
on Sep 7, 2007 at 8:16:32 pm

[tcurren] "Sinc e these QTs are coming in from folks without Kona cards, I'm guessing they are captured via firewire originally in the DVCPRO HD codec, then rendered out of FCP that way. "

Should not make any difference at all.

how do they play in AJA TV.


What does tech support say?

gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows


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tcurren
Re: 720P 23.98 not RT on Kona 3
on Sep 8, 2007 at 1:01:18 am

The current QT movie I have is 90 minutes long. Not easy to send a piece unfortunately. Know of a way to cut of a piece without rerendering into a new codec?

Tech support said "send me an e-mail with the description of the codec for the QT movie and I'll see if anyone knows anything about it."


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msacci
Re: 720P 23.98 not RT on Kona 3
on Sep 8, 2007 at 1:28:41 am

To shorten a clip, open in QT Player, select all but 2-3 seconds. Do a Save as.

Sometimes we forget about the simple programs. :-)


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tcurren
Re: 720P 23.98 not RT on Kona 3
on Sep 8, 2007 at 1:51:35 am

I was afraid QT player would convert it when it saved it out.


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walter biscardi
Re: 720P 23.98 not RT on Kona 3
on Sep 8, 2007 at 1:06:00 am

[tcurren] "I tired the Varicam settings also but it made no difference in the need for a render. Sinc e these QTs are coming in from folks without Kona cards,"

Doesn't matter if they are captured with Kona cards, brought in from P2 or captured via Firewire. DVCPro HD codec is the same and all will play in RT on a Kona system if your Sequence matches the Clip settings.

[tcurren] "I'm guessing they are captured via firewire originally in the DVCPRO HD codec, then rendered out of FCP that way."

Why would they be rendered out from FCP in any way shape or form? Wouldn't you just get the project and the raw media?

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
http://www.biscardicreative.com
HD Editorial & Animation for Broadcast and independent productions.

All Things Apple Podcast! http://cowcast.creativecow.net/all_things_apple/index.html

Read my blog! http://blogs.creativecow.net/WalterBiscardi


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tcurren
Re: 720P 23.98 not RT on Kona 3
on Sep 8, 2007 at 1:14:42 am

Hey Walter, up kinda late aren't you? ;-)

Anyway, these are files people bring in for output to tape in the Digital Service Station. Most will just output a QT as oppossed to taking a chance with the Media Mangler or praying for relinking correctly on our system.

Terence Curren
http://www.alphadogs.tv
http://www.digitalservicestation.com
Burbank,Ca


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walter biscardi
Re: 720P 23.98 not RT on Kona 3
on Sep 8, 2007 at 1:19:34 am

If they are outputting a QT, most likely it has been changed to 1280x720 instead of 960x720 which is what DVCPro HD is. That would kill your realtime.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
http://www.biscardicreative.com
HD Editorial & Animation for Broadcast and independent productions.

All Things Apple Podcast! http://cowcast.creativecow.net/all_things_apple/index.html

Read my blog! http://blogs.creativecow.net/WalterBiscardi


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tcurren
Re: 720P 23.98 not RT on Kona 3
on Sep 8, 2007 at 1:49:18 am

Walter,

You are the man!

FCP does indeed change the F'ing frame size even when you use the Kona Preset. We even tried using QT conversion and manually setting the frame size to 960 x 720 and the movie it created was 1248 x 702!!

So, apparently there is no way to export a QT of 720P 23.98 that will be able to play back in FCP in RT with the Kona card.

Puts a real wrinkle in our client's workflow.

Terence Curren
http://www.alphadogs.tv
http://www.digitalservicestation.com
Burbank,Ca


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tcurren
Re: 720P 23.98 not RT on Kona 3
on Sep 8, 2007 at 1:49:41 am

Walter,

You are the man!

FCP does indeed change the F'ing frame size even when you use the Kona Preset. We even tried using QT conversion and manually setting the frame size to 960 x 720 and the movie it created was 1248 x 702!!

So, apparently there is no way to export a QT of 720P 23.98 that will be able to play back in FCP in RT with the Kona card.

Puts a real wrinkle in our client's workflow.

Terence Curren
http://www.alphadogs.tv
http://www.digitalservicestation.com
Burbank,Ca


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David Battistella
Re: 720P 23.98 not RT on Kona 3
on Sep 8, 2007 at 1:59:09 am



Yes there is. Do a bit of client service here. Go into compressor and create a template to export this format using compressor. Save the template as a droplet, after you have tested it in a few short clps.

E-mail the droplet to your client and tell them to export via FCP with the setting file.

Let's get creative people. There is always a way!


:)

David



Peace and Love :)
Read my Blog
http://blogs.creativecow.net/DavidBattistella


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tcurren
Re: 720P 23.98 not RT on Kona 3
on Sep 8, 2007 at 2:29:22 am

Okay, tried Compressor, I get the same funky frame size of 1248.


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David Battistella
Re: 720P 23.98 not RT on Kona 3
on Sep 8, 2007 at 3:49:01 am


You can't set a custom frame size/pixel dimension in compressor?

Not near my machine. I'll try tomorrow.

Keep us posted.


David


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tcurren
Re: 720P 23.98 not RT on Kona 3
on Sep 8, 2007 at 4:05:00 am

I did set the custom parameters. I chose DVCPRO HD codec, then set the frame rate for 23.98. then set the custom size to the 960 format and the end result is 1248. Same thing that happened doing it through Quicktime conversion.

Wacky stuff this is. I hope someone else can get a different result somehow.

Terence Curren
http://www.alphadogs.tv
http://www.digitalservicestation.com
Burbank,Ca


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Christopher Wright
Re: 720P 23.98 not RT on Kona 3
on Sep 8, 2007 at 4:49:32 am

This is also happening on my dual G5 using the Kona LH card. If you export your 720P 23.98 timeline/sequence to a single Quicktime movie, it changes the aspect from 960 to 1200 as well. I used to be able to render clips out of FCP and export them back into my current project fine. Now you have to re-render the clip again in the timeline to get your realtime playback back again. It sounds like a FCP 6 bug.


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Christopher Wright
Re: 720P 23.98 not RT on Kona 3
on Sep 8, 2007 at 4:55:07 am

that last post should read "import them back into my FCP project"!! :>)


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tcurren
Re: 720P 23.98 not RT on Kona 3
on Sep 8, 2007 at 5:14:25 am

In thinking this through, I have come up with what I believe is happening here. The DVCPRO HD codec is anamorphically (sic) squeezed from 1280 down to 960 to save space on tape. This we know. Then it is unsqueezed to display. This we also know. My guess is that the codec contains instructions to usnqueeze it for display.

Think about it. Would you want to watch ultra thin people while viewing on your computer? No, of course not. And I'm sure that the various Quicktime players aren't setup to unsqueeze this codec on display. So you would have to unsqueeze it any time you left FCP.

The end result, I don't think there is anyway to save a QT file in the DVCPro codec that isn't unsqueezed outside of FCP.

I guess one inelegant solution would be to next the sequence in a new DVCPRO HD timeline and render it, then you could take the rendered QT movie and move it around.


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Christopher Wright
Re: 720P 23.98 not RT on Kona 3
on Sep 8, 2007 at 6:42:16 am

The Problem is, I never view DVCPRO HD clips "on the computer screen." I always have the Kona output to an HD monitor. Before FCP 6, I could import the Quicktime movie of my entire show into a DVCPRO HD 720 project and play it immediately out to my HD Monitor or an HD projector without having to re-render it. This is a major step backwards!!


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David Battistella
Re: 720P 23.98 not RT on Kona 3
on Sep 8, 2007 at 12:24:40 pm

Try this in this order:
Create a new sequence and drag the clip into FCP 6.0 Open timeline, and wait for the (clip does not match the sequence settings" dialog box?

Ask FCP to set the timeline to the same thing your QT is.(there should be no render bar unless the audio has been encoded incorrectly)

THEN

Change your easy set-p to varicam.


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Tcurren
Re: 720P 23.98 not RT on Kona 3
on Sep 9, 2007 at 12:07:56 am

I tried that originally, and ended up with a sequence that needs to be rendered.


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