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Workflow for AJA KONA 3 HD : how to work in 25p ?

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xzuxzu
Workflow for AJA KONA 3 HD : how to work in 25p ?
on Aug 30, 2007 at 9:00:35 am

I need to edit HD SR 25 progressive scan material. The station is : FCP studio 1, AJA KONA 3 HD. Capture is made via Dual-Link 4:4:4. Still I can't find where is the AJA preset for Progressive capture and editing via Final Cut. Only 1080i shows up, and setting the frame priority to "undefined" is not enough.
Any clue on this ?


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gary adcock
Re: Workflow for AJA KONA 3 HD : how to work in 25p ?
on Aug 30, 2007 at 2:16:52 pm

I was told the format is called "i" due to restrictions in the EU about truth in advertising.

If you digitized the material already, you need to use the setup for dig'ing.

if you do not find a DL 25psf setting duplicate one of the 24 frame psf projects and change the Frame rate settings to 25.









gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows


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gary adcock
Re: Workflow for AJA KONA 3 HD : how to work in 25p ?
on Aug 30, 2007 at 2:53:39 pm

[xzuxzu] "Still I can't find where is the AJA preset for Progressive capture and editing via Final Cut. "

ooops

That setup is part of the additional Easy Setups we post on the web:

http://www.aja.com/ajashare/Kona3_v3.4_Additional_Easy_Setups.zip



gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows


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xzuxzu
Re: Workflow for AJA KONA 3 HD : how to work in 25p ?
on Aug 31, 2007 at 8:41:47 am

ok thx for the tips
but as I don't use easy setups, your file confirms that we just have the "frame priority" sets to "none". There is actually no specific settings for AJA to work in 25p, and what I was setting up was already correct.

AJA Kona3: 1080p 25 10 Bit
1920 x 1080...
square pixels
no frame priority (undefined)
QT settings : uncompressed 10 bits 4:2:2 (in HDV, you may set 1080p25 for instance)


I'de hope we could have a specific AJA codec for to edit in progressive mode
cheers


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gary adcock
Re: Workflow for AJA KONA 3 HD : how to work in 25p ?
on Aug 31, 2007 at 10:59:47 am

[xzuxzu] " There is actually no specific settings for AJA to work in 25p, and what I was setting up was already correct."


I corrected that by saying that the DL settings needed to be downloaded separately, mainly do to the lack of 4:4;4 work outside of the US at the time of that drivers build.

The 4.0 drivers for FCP6 now include the 25p DL setups.


gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows


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xzuxzu
Re: Workflow for AJA KONA 3 HD : how to work in 25p ?
on Aug 31, 2007 at 1:52:53 pm

thx for the (quick) feedback

is there any chance I can apply 25p to FCP studio 1 (5.1.4) ?
it sounds strange to me I have to pay for a FCP update to make my AJA work at its maximum capabilities, don't you think ?


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gary adcock
Re: Workflow for AJA KONA 3 HD : how to work in 25p ?
on Sep 1, 2007 at 2:30:29 am

[xzuxzu] "is there any chance I can apply 25p to FCP studio 1 (5.1.4) ?"



yeah

it was in this message.
http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/98/866708


the 25p DL settings are being included in the current builds, for FCP 5 the settings were a separate download ( at the link above)

gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows


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xzuxzu
Re: Workflow for AJA KONA 3 HD : how to work in 25p ?
on Sep 1, 2007 at 8:11:46 am

OK, sorry I maybe not clear enough (I'm french).. but that is what I was saying : I've installed the files from the link and the setting still don't show any "AJA 1080p" compressor.

Again, I can see/use the setting and when I inspect the setup, the only change I see is that frame priority is set to 'none' and the compressor is the same like in 1080i setup "uncompressed 4:2:2".
In fact I suspect it is not enough to work in 25p, and I should find an "AJA progressive" compressor somewhere... but maybe, you will tell that it is enough ?



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gary adcock
Re: Workflow for AJA KONA 3 HD : how to work in 25p ?
on Sep 2, 2007 at 1:46:12 pm

first
you are working in the Psf format not true P and due to truth in labeling laws in the EU is is marked as such. so 25p is also 50i and it is sometimes listed as 25i.

if the compressor is asking for or telling you that it is 422 - you are not working in 444.

Capture of 4:4:4 material requires a dual HDSDI connection from an Sony SR deck or direct from a comparable camera, otherwise you are only capturing single link materials.

why don;t you go over your setup in detail.





gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows


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xzuxzu
Re: Workflow for AJA KONA 3 HD : how to work in 25p ?
on Sep 7, 2007 at 5:02:17 pm

ok, I decided to take time and make test + cross-captures to check the full workflow back again.
still I cannot capture progressive material from SONY HD SR / HD to AJA Kona 3 !

I sum up the steps I did : I will focus on capturing 4:2:2 1080p25 footage

1- install your additionnal easy setup files and checked they appeared into FCP pro 5.1.4
2- set the AJA Kona setup panel to work with format 1080p25 see here =

3- set capture to 1080p25 with FCP 5.1.4
4- play 25p footage (example given is in 4:2:2 HD CAM)

At this point nothing works like I want : the FCP window shows artefacts, see here =

and the capture board "sees" only 1080i25 format as input, see here =

Weird thing is that the HD SR / CAM players show proper Playback output 1080p25 see here =

In fact, the only I have to deal with my footage is to go back to capture setting interlaced 1080i25, see here =
it's the only way it works, but it is not 25p, am I wrong ?


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JR-Links
Re: Workflow for AJA KONA 3 HD : how to work in 25p ?
on Sep 13, 2007 at 4:13:27 am

I don't mean to cloud the issues here, but does it matter that soon we'll have FCP 6.0.2 ?
On display in the Sony Booth at IBC was a new alpha version of FCP (6.02a) with 1080 50P.
See this page at HDforIndies for more details.

http://www.hdforindies.com/2007/09/ibc-news-red-sony-xdcam-ex-new.html


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Rory Hinds
Re: Workflow for AJA KONA 3 HD : how to work in 25p ?
on Sep 16, 2007 at 8:22:05 am

I'm having the same problem with setting the Kona 3 to output in 25p give me a green mess.
The only way to get it out correctly is to set it to 25i.

I'm on a Mac Pro DualCore 3Ghz, 10gb RAM, Kona 3, QT 7.1, FCP 6.0.1, Kona 4 drives..

Going to a M2000 VTR and a Decklink HDLink. I have to set my Control Panel to 1080i25 as 1080p25 doesn't work.

Rory Hinds
mine
http://www.minefilms.com


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gary adcock
Re: Workflow for AJA KONA 3 HD : how to work in 25p ?
on Sep 16, 2007 at 8:24:52 pm

[Rory Hinds] "I'm having the same problem with setting the Kona 3 to output in 25p give me a green mess.
The only way to get it out correctly is to set it to 25i. "



thats because you are not shooting P....

the format is PsF and the output is always 50i.....

25i is the naming structure.



gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows


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Rory Hinds
Re: Workflow for AJA KONA 3 HD : how to work in 25p ?
on Sep 16, 2007 at 9:23:01 pm

Hi Gary

Nice to meet you at IBC.. I'm still having issues with my card and am talking with Gerry to sort things out.

How come they have 1080p25 and 1080p50 as format options in the control panel?

I've had major issues with my card and have pretty much replaced everything to issolate the problem. I'm actually starting to think I have a bad Mac or Graphics card as I can't explain why video in and out is such and issue.

Have you seen a situation where the card doesn't see HD video in on one input but not there other, even swopping them around.

I also get video dropping out when viewing the feed into a HDLink and get "spikes" on the signal too which look like "tearing".

All I need is a stable system :-)




Rory Hinds
mine
http://www.minefilms.com


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Kenny Fields
Re: Workflow for AJA KONA 3 HD : how to work in 25p ?
on Feb 17, 2010 at 7:35:09 pm

Hi Gary,
We are having a similar problem capturing from our HD Cam deck using the 25p setting on our Kona 3 card. I tried your advice to use the 25i easy setup and indeed I was able to capture successfully.

The problem now is that I have interlaced picture, not progressive. This will create a problem for my client down the road.

We have confirmed the difference between what we have on the 25p HD Cam tape, and what we have captured by noting flicker when we stop the video in the timeline on some action. The same action on the tape does not have any flicker because it is truly progressive. This is noticeable on our Sony CRT, not on our LCD's.

So the question is, can we actually capture this 25p tape and have it be truly progressive so there is not any field flicker?

Thanks for your help.

Kenny


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gary adcock
Re: Workflow for AJA KONA 3 HD : how to work in 25p ?
on Feb 17, 2010 at 9:21:34 pm

[Kenny Fields] "The problem now is that I have interlaced picture, not progressive. This will create a problem for my client down the road. "

why, the signal is the same?

If your original was an HDcam tape, it was recorded with a Sony camera and it will be PsF or Progressive Segmented frame, the method that Sony applies to all 1080 content their cameras capture.

[Kenny Fields] " The same action on the tape does not have any flicker because it is truly progressive. This is noticeable on our Sony CRT, not on our LCD's."

EHH???? if it was a TRUE PROGRESSIVE signal, it would not play at all on a CRT, since CRT's cannot handle a 1080 signal as True Progressive



gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows for the Digitally Inclined
Chicago, IL

http://blogs.creativecow.net/24640


http://library.creativecow.net/articles/adcock_gary/AJAIOHD.php




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Kenny Fields
Re: Workflow for AJA KONA 3 HD : how to work in 25p ?
on Feb 17, 2010 at 9:37:03 pm

If the signal is the same, then how come when I monitor footage directly from my deck I get no flicker, but when I monitor the same footage from my FCP timeline, I do see flicker?

We monitor Sony's "progressive" formats like 1080psf 23.98 all the time on our CRT's. I realize that it is not "true progressive" however it does display the progressive characteristic of not flickering when paused on a frame with action. The material on the PAL 25i timeline has noticeable flicker when paused on a frame with action.

Kenny


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gary adcock
Re: Workflow for AJA KONA 3 HD : how to work in 25p ?
on Feb 18, 2010 at 12:27:55 am

[Kenny Fields] "If the signal is the same, then how come when I monitor footage directly from my deck I get no flicker, but when I monitor the same footage from my FCP timeline, I do see flicker?"

Check the FCP field dominance, it would not be the first time apple forgot what side of the planet.
Also check to make sure the Kona Control panel/ Codec is set to show "frame" and not "field".

One other thing to try is open the FCP Seq settings and set the field order to "None" just like when trying

"The material on the PAL 25i timeline has noticeable flicker when paused on a frame with action. "

I am really betting on an incorrect setting in the control panel.



gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows for the Digitally Inclined
Chicago, IL

http://blogs.creativecow.net/24640


http://library.creativecow.net/articles/adcock_gary/AJAIOHD.php




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Kenny Fields
Re: Workflow for AJA KONA 3 HD : how to work in 25p ?
on Feb 18, 2010 at 1:13:12 am

These are all good suggestions but none proved to be the answer. We have changed the field dominance in the sequence to none, changed the clip field dominance to none (in the browser) but the flicker is still there. Checked the Kona control panel and playback is set to frame, not field

I believe this may be caused by the Kona card seeing the signal from the deck (F-500 set to 1080 25p) as 25i. When I go into the Kona control panel, and look at video in, it is red and saying 1080 25i. Not sure why it sees the signal that way as our Avid is able to capture from the exact same deck and not have the same flicker problem.

Also, when we bring 25p file sequences into the FCP, they do not have any flicker and we are able to output them to tape at 25p and the tape does not have any flicker.

I've spoken with AJA and they did not have any definitive answers either... just the same things that we have talked about like changing field dominance etc. I also got the flicker when capturing with AJA's capture only tool which takes the FCP out of the equation completely so that is more evidence that this is being caused by the Kona card seeing the signal as 25i and not 25p.

Kenny


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Tania Chepurna
Re: Workflow for AJA KONA 3 HD : how to work in 25p ?
on Nov 12, 2009 at 3:14:24 pm

Please, advice, how did you solve this problem.

I have the same problem, but from another side. I need transfer from Telecine thru Aja Kona 3 film print in 1080 25p. When I choose in Aja control panel 1080 25p have the same like in your panel. I use QT 7 for capture video.

With best regards
Tania


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gary adcock
Re: Workflow for AJA KONA 3 HD : how to work in 25p ?
on Nov 13, 2009 at 12:03:57 pm

[Tania Chepurna] "I have the same problem, but from another side. I need transfer from Telecine thru Aja Kona 3 film print in 1080 25p. When I choose in Aja control panel 1080 25p have the same like in your panel. I use QT 7 for capture video. "

Tania, download the free VTX exchange App from AJA to do this, you will not be able to correctly capture this kind of content in the QT player.

Note that AJA calls this format 1080 25i (which is really PsF)

gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows for the Digitally Inclined
Chicago, IL


http://library.creativecow.net/articles/adcock_gary/AJAIOHD.php




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