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Onlining DV

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Gordon Gurley
Onlining DV
on Aug 14, 2007 at 9:57:44 pm

I have a client that has a documentary shot entirely on DV. She has done her offline capturing through firewire. I'm wondering what is going to give me the best image quality: recapture everything SDI to Kona uncompressed, or just use her timeline and switch it to uncompressed. My intuition says recapture (I realize we may have offsets due to firewire deck control problems). But I've also heard some say just changing the Sequence Settings to uncompressed will give the same results. Please advise.

Thanks

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Gordon Gurley
Director of Operations
Stanford Video


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JeremyG
Re: Onlining DV
on Aug 14, 2007 at 10:18:15 pm

I'd recapture. Much easier to deal with the 480 -> 486 that way.


Jeremy


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Gordon Gurley
Re: Onlining DV
on Aug 14, 2007 at 10:54:21 pm

Ah yes, frame size, didn't even think of that.

Gordon Gurley
Director of Operations
Stanford Video


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Kevin Wild
Re: Onlining DV
on Aug 15, 2007 at 5:45:01 am

Sorry, but I disagree. Why would you recapture? It's not going to get any better if the original source footage is DV. Unless you are incorporating a lot of photographs scanned in with moves and/or a lot of text, I wouldn't take all the time and huge amounts of space (I'm assuming you have a lot of tapes for a doc) to recapture.

There are plenty of broadcast shows these days shot and edited on DV and only at the end, converted and output to Beta, Dbeta, etc. I'm working on one now...all DV.

Just my $.02.

KW


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Simmie
Re: Onlining DV
on Aug 15, 2007 at 1:50:29 pm

[Kevin Wild] "Sorry, but I disagree. Why would you recapture? It's not going to get any better if the original source footage is DV. Unless you are incorporating a lot of photographs scanned in with moves and/or a lot of text, I wouldn't take all the time and huge amounts of space (I'm assuming you have a lot of tapes for a doc) to recapture."

I'd tend to agree with Kevin, especially if there are loads of tapes involved. The effort isn't worth the marginal image improvement.

-Simmie
2 G5 - Kona LH
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1 xbox360, 1 PSP, 1 PS2 & a Gamecube
http://www.speak.co.uk


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JeremyG
Re: Onlining DV
on Aug 15, 2007 at 1:55:08 pm

Hey Kevin, it's cool and I see why you'd disagree. I ALWAYS recap to 10 bit for my particular programs, but they usually involve graphics at some point. Your dv footage might not get any 'better', but anything you add to a 10 bit timeline will not get some beat up when going to a dv timeline. It's really your personal preference and if it's worth for it, it's worth if not, so be it. I always make it a practice to deliver the highest quality possible, even if it was 'shot on dv', but perhaps I'm a nerd.


Jeremy


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Gordon Gurley
Re: Onlining DV
on Aug 15, 2007 at 3:32:49 pm

OK, here's another wrinkle. The director is going to output the clips from the timeline back to DV tape though firewire. Of course, she will not manipulate the timeline in any way as to need rendering, recompression. etc. I assume this will be as close to a clone as possible. So the problem of wading through tons of tapes is eliminated. The show does have quite a few graphics and stills to push through, so I think it will benefit from the higher res. And there are some shots that will need heavy color correction.

Can anyone expound on the idea that making new source tape(s) from FCP output is a good idea and won't take a hit in quality?

Thanks for all the responses.

Gordon Gurley
Director of Operations
Stanford Video


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JeremyG
Re: Onlining DV
on Aug 15, 2007 at 5:17:00 pm

If you are going back to dv, then it's best to just stick with dv.


Jeremy




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Gordon Gurley
Re: Onlining DV
on Aug 15, 2007 at 7:33:36 pm

Sorry if I wasn't clear, She's basically making a comp source reel from her Final Cut selects so we don't have to wade through tons of tapes. The final output will most likely be Dbeta.

Gordon Gurley
Director of Operations
Stanford Video


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JeremyG
Re: Onlining DV
on Aug 15, 2007 at 7:44:08 pm

Got ya, so you are going to trim, those become the new source tapes (how are you going to match back the originals if need be). You are then going to recapture the new tapes. If going to Dbeta, I'd stick with 10bit.



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Gordon Gurley
Re: Onlining DV
on Aug 15, 2007 at 8:07:12 pm

She's going to re-conform from the new selects tape. Sounds convoluted, I know, but I don't really care if she does all that work. And you're right, it removes any possibility of going back to the source tapes if need be. Oh well.

Gordon Gurley
Director of Operations
Stanford Video


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JeremyG
Re: Onlining DV
on Aug 15, 2007 at 8:12:20 pm

Cool, as long as she doesn't do ANYTHING to the clips (no moving, time remaps, cc, filters, nothing) it'll be pretty much a clone that you can recapture then, @ 10bit.


Jeremy


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weevie833
Re: Onlining DV
on Aug 15, 2007 at 8:41:43 pm

I wouldn't do the selects reel, then matchback process. Too many opportunities to lose the original edit, or to mess up the audio mix because selects output levels were different than the original capture. you're asking for trouble.

Deal with the million tapes and keep a clean list.

Not only that, there isn't a single film [nor director] I know that doesn't come back for a re-edit after a few screenings, which means going back to the original tapes for other scenes, or trims, or who knows. In which case, your matchback reel ID's will be useless without consulting some sort of source list.

I vote for the modifying of sequence settings to 10-bit or 8-bit [10-bit could end up having color correction/legalizing issues as discussed in other strings here].

Remember that FCP moves DV footage up 1 scan line when pasted into a 486 canvas. Leave it that way - it's for correct field dominance. I agree with doing the final output 8-bit or 10-bit if there are significant graphics involved.

steve covello


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Gordon Gurley
Re: Onlining DV
on Aug 15, 2007 at 10:05:52 pm

Steve, right you are. I will bring this up with her.

Gordon Gurley
Director of Operations
Stanford Video


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Bob Zelin
Re: Onlining DV
on Aug 15, 2007 at 10:10:24 pm

since I am always looking for trouble, I will throw my unwanted 2 cents in here. Had everyone involved been using one of the following VTR's, this would never have been an issue -
Sony DSR-45
Sony DSR-60
Sony DSR-80
Sony DSR-1600
Sony DSR-1800
Sony DSR-2000
Sony HVR-1500

However, since everyone insisted on working with Firewire
at DV/NTSC (isn't this an AJA forum ? ), you are in trouble.
My advice is to take that DSR-11, and throw it in the garbage. Go onto ebay, and buy one of the VTR's listed above, and you will never have to think about this issue ever again.

Bob Zelin


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Gordon Gurley
Re: Onlining DV
on Aug 15, 2007 at 10:47:31 pm

The reason for my posting here is that I'm wondering if taking the DV via SDI thru Kona @ 10bit will give me an appreciable upgrade in image quality worthy of all the hassle of recapturing piles of source tapes. There will be graphics and a fair amount of color correct.

Gordon Gurley
Director of Operations
Stanford Video


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JeremyG
Re: Onlining DV
on Aug 16, 2007 at 12:04:50 am

Some will tell you know, some will tell you yes.

2 people here have said no, 2 people have said yes.

I see a difference, but maybe you won't.


Jeremy



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Itamar Kool
Re: Onlining DV
on Aug 16, 2007 at 8:41:53 am

Maybe I'm stupid, but if she works in FCP, why not copy all the files and the project straight to your computer? And then when you finalize the project turrn it into a 10 bits timeline?

Kool En De Anderen
MAC Pro/Kona LHE/Apple FCS 2/Adobe Production Premium
http://www.koolendeanderen.nl


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Gordon Gurley
Re: Onlining DV
on Aug 16, 2007 at 3:53:50 pm

Yes, thanks, that has been suggested. The question is whether or not recapturing from a DSR 2000 ( which from my understanding will improve the quality right off the bat) via SDI to Kona at 10 bit uncompressed will give us better results than doing as you suggest.

Gordon Gurley
Director of Operations
Stanford Video


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JeremyG
Re: Onlining DV
on Aug 16, 2007 at 4:06:56 pm

In my opinion, yes. The footage will get cleaned up a bit (not much, but a bit) and your graphics will then by much much cleaner in a 10 bit timeline and your color correction will render in a higher color space (4:2:2 as opposed to DVs 4:1:1). It is worth it in my opinion, but I think you know that. If you have FCP6, you can give ProResHQ a shot as well. It'll save you some disk space and you can operate in a 10bit color space.


Jeremy


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Alexander Serpico
Re: Onlining DV - just bump up your codec.
on Aug 18, 2007 at 7:17:46 pm

I have performed onlines many times for low budget (political) commercials. I used to follow the train of thought of recapturing at uncompressed, but have found it is not necessary for the process but is a waste of time. You gain all the benefit of improved color space and graphics renders by just bumping your sequence codec to DV50, or Uncompressed, and rendering. Just remember if you want to go uncompressed, you must shift all footage up or down by 1. You could also add a chroma filter, like the one from Nattress (which if i remember correctly, reports to only work properly when applied to the source dv footage). There is no benefit to recapturing once picture is locked.

On a side note, I do a bump up recently from Uncompressed-10 bit to Sheer's Uncompressed 10-bit for cleaner color when rendering in graphics.



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Alexander Serpico
Re: Onlining DV - just bump up your codec.
on Aug 18, 2007 at 7:19:13 pm

-forgot to mention tho, last i tried Nattress does not work at 10-bit UC, so 8-bit is as high as you can set your sequence if u add that smoothing filter.



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John Pale
Re: Onlining DV
on Aug 19, 2007 at 6:16:26 am

Keep in mind also, that you lose any benefit of rendering or recapturing uncompressed, if you master back to DV. You will be recompressing once the signal hits the tape.



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Gordon Gurley
Re: Onlining DV
on Aug 20, 2007 at 5:30:25 pm

We will be mastering to Digibeta.

Gordon Gurley
Director of Operations
Stanford Video


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JeremyG
Re: Onlining DV
on Aug 20, 2007 at 5:44:27 pm

10Bit is great for Digibeta.

Jeremy


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