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Freerun Broken?

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Sean ONeil
Freerun Broken?
on Aug 11, 2007 at 7:03:36 am

AJA has kindly RMA'd the card for me, and I'll have a replacement on Monday. But I was wondering if anyone has heard of this problem?

Basically, the best way I can describe it is that Freerun doesn't work. When I open ETT (VTR is pulling sync from video in like it does on all our working machines) I get a bunch of moving green lines and other garbage in the window.

Also when I playback video, I occasionally get crackles in the audio. Plus the thing is really oversensitive to drop frame errors.

BTW, I don't have the BOB, so terminating the ref loop isn't an issue.

Before the lectures start, there is no house sync in our place, nor does there need to be. We're not doing any live video switching or syncing VTRs with audio equipment or anything like that. The studio has multiple NLE machines w/ Decklink cards that do not have a reference in. Thus, the VTRs are always set to pull sync from the video in. And it's never been a problem before.

Sean


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Bob Zelin
Re: Freerun Broken?
on Aug 11, 2007 at 2:09:07 pm

most Blackmagic products have a Reference Video in, and require a composite black reference, just like every other piece of video gear in history. Sony Digi Beta VTR's have all kinds of issues when not using a reference input - and this applies to linear video editing systems, AVID's, and machine to machine editing as well (see - I didn't even mention AJA in my response).

Good luck with your crackle audio issue.

Bob Zelin


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Sean ONeil
Re: Freerun Broken?
on Aug 11, 2007 at 5:56:55 pm

Not true at all sir.

Quite a few Blackmagic products do not have a reference input. Decklink standard, Decklink HD, Decklink HD Extreme. And the HD Plus only has tri-level, no regular ref. While their other cards do have a genlock, despite what you say none of them require the use of it. Neither does the Kona 3. You can select freerun or video-in sync.

I have a DVW-500. There's a little switch on the slide out panel to select video input as your sync source instead of ref. It's been switched on that way for almost 10 years, since the Media 100 days (which also had a genlock input which I never needed to use before).

House sync is completely unnecessary unless you need to sync multiple pieces of equipment that are running off different clocks. Connecting a single VTR to a single NLE doesn't fall into that category.

Sean


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Bob Zelin
Re: Freerun Broken?
on Aug 13, 2007 at 1:00:11 am

Sean writes -
While their other cards do have a genlock, despite what you say none of them require the use of it. Neither does the Kona 3. You can select freerun or video-in sync.

I have a DVW-500. There's a little switch on the slide out panel to select video input as your sync source instead of ref. It's been switched on that way for almost 10 years, since the Media 100 days (which also had a genlock input which I never needed to use before).

REPLY - Sean, you have never gotten "channel error "lights on your DVW-500 ? You have never had audio distortion before from your embedded or AES audio ? You have never had your audio mysteriously disappear on your DVW-500 ? These are all classis symptoms of no reference into the DVW-500 ?

When you have used your Media 100 in analog component over the years, didn't you have to send a COMPOSITE video signal into the input of the Media 100, even though you were using component video from your Beta VTR ? If the answer is NO to all of my questions, then I want to rub your head, because you are a lucky guy.

bob Zelin





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Sean ONeil
Re: Freerun Broken?
on Aug 13, 2007 at 5:46:34 am

[Bob Zelin] "Sean, you have never gotten "channel error "lights on your DVW-500 ? You have never had audio distortion before from your embedded or AES audio ? You have never had your audio mysteriously disappear on your DVW-500 ? These are all classis symptoms of no reference into the DVW-500 ?"

Never. I guess I'm lucky. There's a menu setting as well for selecting video sync. I don't remember where or exactly what it is.

Sean


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JeremyG
Re: Freerun Broken?
on Aug 11, 2007 at 7:11:20 pm

What version of everything are you on, what card, what computer, what zip code, blah blah blah. Does this happen on all capture presets? Are you sure you don't have the wrong format selected in the Kona control panel?



Jeremy


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Rory Hinds
Re: Freerun Broken?
on Aug 12, 2007 at 9:47:59 am

Hello there

I have the same problem only I'm in PAL land and get white lines when in Capture or Edit to Tape mode.

I'm working directly with a DVW500 and have never had issues with sync with my Decklink cards. I've only recently moved over to AJA with a Mac Pro upgrade.

AJA send out a new card which arrived on Friday but the problem was not fixed with the replacement.

I think its a software problem.

This sync problem causes a interlace field problem on capture which results in poor quality video. I've tested Edit to Tape and the imaged seems to be recored fine.

I've tried syncing the Digibeta to our Black and Burst but this doesn't stop the AJA Kona 3 from outputting these white lines.

Strange thing is if I set the Kona3 to HD in, so do a up-convert then a down convert the problem goes away although now I'm capturing in HD 720.

Mac Pro
8Gb RAM
ATI X1900
AJA Kona 3
Latest QT
Latest OS X
Latest FCP



Rory Hinds
mine
http://www.minefilms.com


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Sean ONeil
Re: Freerun Broken?
on Aug 13, 2007 at 5:54:56 am

[Rory Hinds] "AJA send out a new card which arrived on Friday but the problem was not fixed with the replacement."

Yikes! That makes me nervous.

Your problem does sound similar to mine.

AJA tech support told me that if you have the card in freerun, and you open edit to tape, you should only see black in that window. And I have to agree, that's how it should work. So that's why he decided to send me a new one.

Sean


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Sean ONeil
Re: Freerun Broken?
on Aug 13, 2007 at 5:48:45 am

Kona version 4.0. Mac Pro Quad 2.66. 4gb RAM. FCS 2 with all the updates. QT 7.02. OS X 10.4.9.

Sean


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Rory Hinds
Re: Freerun Broken?
on Aug 13, 2007 at 7:55:57 am

Yeah thats what I was told too.. it should be solid black on capture and edit to tape.

I think this is a software problem as 2 boards can't be broken, surely.

Rory Hinds
mine
http://www.minefilms.com


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JeremyG
Re: Freerun Broken?
on Aug 13, 2007 at 2:02:37 pm

Mine is usually never black when I first open edit to tape. It usually switches to 1080i when I go to edit to tape, until I actually start the edit to tape and then switches to whatever format I am mastering to. This has been true on a Kona2, Kona3X and now a Kona3. Sometimes, i don't have a video input routed into the Kona card, just an output, I always thought that this was the reason. On Capture, the Kona card grabs the signal from whatever I am capturing from.


Jeremy




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Rory Hinds
Re: Freerun Broken?
on Aug 13, 2007 at 2:08:56 pm

Jeremy

If you never usually have Black what do you see instead?

Regards
Rory

Rory Hinds
mine
http://www.minefilms.com


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JeremyG
Re: Freerun Broken?
on Aug 13, 2007 at 3:35:56 pm

Static. If I have an input hooked in, I see whatever's coming from that. I do have reference coming in too.


Jeremy



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Sean ONeil
Re: Freerun Broken?
on Aug 13, 2007 at 10:06:31 pm

[JeremyG] "Static. If I have an input hooked in, I see whatever's coming from that. I do have reference coming in too."

What do you have set under "Control -> Default Video Output"?


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JeremyG
Re: Freerun Broken?
on Aug 14, 2007 at 2:08:10 am

[Sean ONeil] "What do you have set under "Control -> Default Video Output"?
"


Where do you see this? In the AJA Control Panel? I can check tomorrow.

As I said before, sometimes when I go to ETT, the Control Panel frame buffer goes to 1080i. It often defaults to 1080i when FCP doesn't have control, no matter what I set it to in the beginning of the day or whatever. This could be operator error on my part as I can't seem to find a way to set a default. I can then change it to 525i or 720p or whatever I am capturing and the lines go away. Or, when I start the ETT process, the Control Panel then situates itself on the proper settings (i.e. whatever easy setup I chose FCP to be in). I encourage you to leave Control Panel in a position where you can see it when you open the ETT window and see what happens. It could lead you to a solution.


Jeremy



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Sean ONeil
Re: Freerun Broken?
on Aug 14, 2007 at 6:02:54 am

[JeremyG] "Where do you see this? In the AJA Control Panel? I can check tomorrow."

Yes, it's in the Control Panel. There's are multiple options. One of them is "black" (what I have it set to) and the other is "input passthrough" (which sounds like what you have it set to).

I'm seeing the lines/noise/garbage on ETT even if I'm working in 1080i or 525i. I know what you're talking about, how it defaults to 1080i or whatever. But my monitor and my Easy Setup are 1080i, and I still see garbage on the screen.

I'll test it more tomorrow. And I'll trash the Kona and QT prefs.

I feel bad they sent me a new card and it didn't solve it. This is most likely a problem with FCP, QT, OSX, or the Kona software.

Sean


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gary adcock
Re: Freerun Broken?
on Aug 14, 2007 at 1:01:16 pm

[Sean ONeil] "I'm seeing the lines/noise/garbage on ETT even if I'm working in 1080i or 525i. I know what you're talking about, how it defaults to 1080i or whatever. But my monitor and my Easy Setup are 1080i, and I still see garbage on the screen."


note that using the FCP easy setups do not change any settings in the Kona Control Panel,

I am running the latest drivers and FCP and not seeing this at either 1080 29.97 or 60i, but I am running house ref.






gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows


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Rory Hinds
Re: Freerun Broken?
on Aug 14, 2007 at 1:13:42 pm

This is what I'm getting

http://www.minefilms.com/html/ajaproblem.htm




Rory Hinds
mine
http://www.minefilms.com


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JeremyG
Re: Freerun Broken?
on Aug 14, 2007 at 2:33:30 pm

Yep, that's exactly what I get sometimes too.

By the way, I have my CP set to black all the time for default output.


Jeremy



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JeremyG
Re: Freerun Broken?
on Aug 14, 2007 at 2:46:08 pm

Are you routed straight to a deck, or other?


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Rory Hinds
Re: Freerun Broken?
on Aug 14, 2007 at 2:58:31 pm

Straight to the deck.

I've tried turning EE off and on but this has no effect.

I've also tried it with my Digibeta and Kona synced to house sync black and burst and the AJA control panel set to Ref In... but still the lines remain.

The only way I can get rid of the lines is to have only the input or output from the Kona connected to the Digi one at time.. if you connect both you get the lines.

They say it shouldn't effect capture and playback but I had it doing just that... getting a weird field alternating issue which is when I first contact AJA and a replacement board was sent out.

I hope this can be fixed as its an issue.



Rory Hinds
mine
http://www.minefilms.com


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Sean ONeil
Re: Freerun Broken?
on Aug 13, 2007 at 10:02:52 pm

[Rory Hinds] "I think this is a software problem as 2 boards can't be broken, surely."

Make that 4 boards. I just got my replacement and it's doing the same thing.

It's not just freerun either. I hooked up our blackburst to the ref in just to see if anything was different. And it's still doing it.

I tried making sure nothing was connected. The mini-SDI cable isn't even attached. I get a nasty flashing lightshow wtih ETT. Green and pink lines. If I'm working on a project, then it also flashes ghost images of whatever video is in the viewer at the time.


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Rory Hinds
Re: Freerun Broken?
on Aug 13, 2007 at 10:10:09 pm

I received this from AJA. I still to try it - will tomorrow and will post back here.

I get the lines when the Digibeta is turned ON. When its OFF the lines are gone. I need to check this though.

I've tried all the settings in the Control window but nothing fixes it.

=======

Here are some things we would like you to try:
1. Try capturing this same footage with our AJA VTR Exchange capture utility. See if you get the same lines in the capture window of that program.
You can download it from our web site.
http://www.aja.com/html/support_kona3_swd.html
Under utilities download Version 3 of the AJA VTR exchange program.

2. Try removing the preference files for Kona and FCP.
1) Delete the Kona Preferences:
a) Go to: librarypreferences and delete com.ajaKonaPreferences.plist.
b) Go to: usersusernamelibrarypreferences and delete com.ajaKonaControlPanel.plist.
c) Reboot and then reset the Kona Control Panel parameters.

2) Delete the QuickTime preferences:
a) Go to: usersusnernamelibrarypreferences
b) Delete: com.apple.quicktime.plugins.preferences.plist.
c) Delete: Quicktime Preferences
d) Reboot.

3) Delete the FCP preferences:
a) Close FCP.
b) Go to: usersusernamelibrarypreferencesFCP user data
c) Delete: FCP 6.0 preferences, OBJ cache and Prof cache files.
d) Launch FCP and setup with an AJA Kona easy setup.


Rory Hinds
mine
http://www.minefilms.com


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Bob Zelin
Re: Freerun Broken?
on Aug 13, 2007 at 11:27:27 pm

this is where I usually say "I'll be right over". Unfortunately, I'm not in southern CA, where you are. You need someone to take a look at your system. It's pretty unlikely that it's your AJA card, at this point. I am not sure if you are tied in with a VAR dealer like DR Group, or know a freelance engineer that can come assist you.

Bob Zelin


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Rory Hinds
Re: Freerun Broken?
on Aug 14, 2007 at 2:59:18 pm

Straight to the deck.

I've tried turning EE off and on but this has no effect.

I've also tried it with my Digibeta and Kona synced to house sync black and burst and the AJA control panel set to Ref In... but still the lines remain.

The only way I can get rid of the lines is to have only the input or output from the Kona connected to the Digi one at time.. if you connect both you get the lines.

They say it shouldn't effect capture and playback but I had it doing just that... getting a weird field alternating issue which is when I first contact AJA and a replacement board was sent out.

I hope this can be fixed as its an issue.



Rory Hinds
mine
http://www.minefilms.com


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JeremyG
Re: Freerun Broken?
on Aug 14, 2007 at 3:14:35 pm

See that would mean to me some sort of feedback, turning EE off would solve that though.

Did you try the suggestions you posted earlier?


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Rory Hinds
Re: Freerun Broken?
on Aug 14, 2007 at 3:17:22 pm

Yeah I think its feedback for sure.

Yes I tried all the instructions and still haven't solved this.

I'm talking with AJA support and hopefully they see this is a problem and can fix is.

Rory Hinds
mine
http://www.minefilms.com


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JeremyG
Re: Freerun Broken?
on Aug 14, 2007 at 3:27:32 pm

Let us know how it goes.


Jeremy


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Rory Hinds
Re: Freerun Broken?
on Aug 14, 2007 at 3:30:57 pm

will do, would be interesting to find out how Sean gets on too...


Rory Hinds
mine
http://www.minefilms.com


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Sean ONeil
Re: Freerun Broken?
on Aug 14, 2007 at 4:52:33 pm

This is a screenshot of what I'm seeing:
http://www.crosscreekentertain.com/ETT_Noise.jpg

It looks like this when I open it no matter what the capture/plaback setting is, and no matter what is hooked up. Even if nothing is plugged in.

Freerun or Ref In (from a working blackburst) makes no difference.


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JeremyG
Re: Freerun Broken?
on Aug 14, 2007 at 6:41:33 pm

Oooooooo, pretty.


Jeremy


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Sean ONeil
Re: Freerun Broken?
on Aug 15, 2007 at 2:03:59 am

[JeremyG] "Oooooooo, pretty."

So I take it nobody else has that going on? And this is the replacement card. Good times.



Sean


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JeremyG
Re: Freerun Broken?
on Aug 15, 2007 at 2:23:05 am

I've seen that if I'm in the wrong easy setup, but I'm sure that's not your problem.


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Jeff Bernstein
Re: Freerun Broken?
on Aug 15, 2007 at 8:23:14 am

I see this issue all the time. What is happening is that Kona card is trying to lock to the input. Similarly, I saw goofiness when capturing when the input of the Kona was connected to the same deck.

I think what we have here is a feedback loop caused by a bug in the drivers.



Jeff Bernstein

Digital Desktop Consulting
Apple Pro Video VAR
XSAN Certified
MetaSAN Master Reseller

323-653-7611


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Rory Hinds
Re: Freerun Broken?
on Aug 15, 2007 at 8:26:55 am

Yes its does seem to be a loop problem.

I just hope AJA can fix it.

Rory Hinds
mine
http://www.minefilms.com


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R411Y3
Re: Freerun Broken?
on Aug 15, 2007 at 11:21:48 am

Sorry if I am repeating someone else here, I havent read the whole thread.

The white lines are the VITC lines getting echo'd down the screen when you have a loop, ie both VT and FCP in EE. This is the same if you had a VT connected to itself or two VTs in a loop.

Putting the deck is PB mode does stop this but if the deck drops out of standby (or the tape is removed) it will revert to EE. Easiest way to stop this is to set your signal generator/SG (sony menu number 710) to Black Burst BB (option 14 IIRC) and when you are not playing back to the deck press and hold the SDI input button to engauge the SG.



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Sean ONeil
Re: Freerun Broken?
on Aug 15, 2007 at 5:13:59 pm

I think Rory's problem might be different than mine.

Anyway, mine is solved I think. I trashed the AJA Control Panel preferences, and the QT preferences, Now I just see black in ETT.


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Rory Hinds
Re: Freerun Broken?
on Aug 15, 2007 at 5:56:46 pm

This is a loop problem for sure.

Changing the EE doesn't fix this as the Kona3 has issues with the loop.

Only way I can get it working okay is to have only 1 link to the Kona3 at a time, which sucks big time.

Hopefully AJA can fix this as its a major problem for us.

Rory Hinds
mine
http://www.minefilms.com


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R411Y3
Re: Freerun Broken?
on Aug 15, 2007 at 9:32:31 pm

I will check tomorrow, but i think the problem is that the kona 9pin control takes the machine out of standby at the end of laybacks.

T


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Jeff Bernstein
Re: Freerun Broken?
on Aug 16, 2007 at 7:10:26 am

Even if it did, the card still should not allow a feedback loop to occur.



Jeff Bernstein

Digital Desktop Consulting
Apple Pro Video VAR
XSAN Certified
MetaSAN Master Reseller

323-653-7611


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