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Do I need a blackburst generator

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pom_boarder
Do I need a blackburst generator
on Jul 25, 2007 at 7:05:09 am

Hi All,

I mastered an HDV job yesterday to beta SP. I downconverted the 1080i to 625 letterboxed but couldn't get the beta deck to display the correct colours until we hooked up a blackburst generator between the deck and the kona. This is the first time we have tried to master to beta so I was wondering whether I need a BBG every time I master or just for beta SP or was I doing something wrong in the first place?

Thanks in advance


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JeremyG
Re: Do I need a blackburst generator
on Jul 25, 2007 at 2:53:44 pm



Analog beta decks love black burst like kids love candy.


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Alexander Serpico
Re: Do I need a blackburst generator
on Jul 25, 2007 at 8:37:22 pm

LOL


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Bob Zelin
Re: Do I need a blackburst generator
on Jul 25, 2007 at 11:50:28 pm

Gee - the Sony Beta VTR has a Ref Video input for black. The AJA Kona has a Reference input for black. Every piece of professional video gear, since the beginning of video has had genlock inputs. So, do you REALLY need a black generator to lock this stuff together, or is this just one big joke among all the manufacturers, just to waste your time and money ? You tell me ?

bob Zelin


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cofe
Re: Do I need a blackburst generator
by
on Jul 26, 2007 at 12:10:10 am

the one thing you do NOT need is some smart looking answer which is incorrect.

I for instance run FCP with different video boards and BetaSP and DigiBeta without any BB generator for years. I know its impossible, but hey....

The only real situation you need a BB is when you connect more then 2 pieces of video equipment (e.g. old edit suit with vision mixer and 3+ VTR and bla bla). You can for instance feed the ref out of a PVW2800 into the ref in of the Kona or whatever board you have and this way sync the Kona to the recorder. So it all depends on your hardware.


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JeremyG
Re: Do I need a blackburst generator
on Jul 26, 2007 at 2:21:54 am


[cofe] "the one thing you do NOT need is some smart looking answer which is incorrect."


....but if they had a BB generator, they wouldn't have this problem.


Yes you can run without it, but it makes every thing easier once it's there.

With the low cost of the Gen10, it's really a no brainer.



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Cofe
Re: Do I need a blackburst generator
by
on Jul 26, 2007 at 3:28:19 am

[JeremyG] "Yes you can run without it, but it makes every thing easier once it's there.

With the low cost of the Gen10, it's really a no brainer."


Point taken and I agree :-)


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Bob Zelin
Re: Do I need a blackburst generator
on Jul 26, 2007 at 2:24:39 am

Mr. Cofe writes -

I for instance run FCP with different video boards and BetaSP and DigiBeta without any BB generator for years.
The only real situation you need a BB is when you connect more then 2 pieces of video equipment (e.g. old edit suit with vision mixer and 3+ VTR and bla bla). You can for instance feed the ref out of a PVW2800 into the ref in of the Kona or whatever board you have and this way sync the Kona to the recorder. So it all depends on your hardware


REPLY - so that blinking blue stop light on your PVW2800, that has been flashing away, even though your Sony manual says "the flashing stop lamp indicates no reference found" - has not bothered you all this time ? The Ref out of a PVW2800 (is there a ref out of a PVW2800) would not put out a stable reference with burst unless the VTR was in PLAY mode. You can use Grandma's TV set to see your video out of your Kona, and Grandpa's Magnavox speakers to hear your audio - is this the correct thing to do as a professional, or is this a smart ass answer ? Perhaps you believe in using the internal speaker of your MAC to hear your broadcast audio. The Federal Avation Administration Safety training facility in Lakeland, FL. masters to VHS for their production shoots - is this a workflow that you endorce ?

BUY A BLACK GENERATOR.

Bob Zelin




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pom_boarder
Re: Do I need a blackburst generator
on Jul 26, 2007 at 2:57:51 am

Thanks for the responses. Bob, I appreciate you taking the time to respond. I can assume therefore, that the set up I had was correct and that the blackburst generator was needed. You also specifically used the word analog, is the BBG needed for mastering to digi-beta also?

If these sound like stupid questions, then feel free to talk to me like I am an idiot. Given the recent thread about editors needing to know everything I'm not embarassed to ask. I need to rent gear in for mastering and so I would rather know what I need than rent it and find it wont work.

Thanks in advance


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Bob Zelin
Re: Do I need a blackburst generator
on Jul 26, 2007 at 11:11:00 pm

you ask -
You also specifically used the word analog, is the BBG needed for mastering to digi-beta also?

YES. The Sony DVW-M2000, and the Sony DVW-A500 use analog composite black as the genlock signal, even though these are digital VTR's. The AJA Kona is a digital card, yet it uses analog black reference to lock it up. The same applies even to HD VTR's, like the Panasonic AJ-HD1400, and Sony HDW-F500 and HDW-1800. These VTR's CAN use tri level sync, but work just fine with standard analog composite black going into the Ref Video inputs. You will see that the REFERENCE INDICATOR (the flashing blue stop button) will stop flashing when you have the correct black reference into the VTR.

There are ALWAYS work arounds. Without a black reference generator (like an AJA GEN10 or Horita BSG-50), you can use the composite video signal of your source machine to feed the ref video input. For example, if you are going from an AJA I/O into a Beta 1800, and you have no black generator, you can feed the Beta 1800 from the AJA with the component video outputs, and take the COMPOSITE video output of the AJA I/O, and feed it to the REF VIDEO INPUT, and you will not get the NON-STD REF ERROR 093 indication. The composite video signal supplies the sync and burst information for the genlock circuit of the VTR - it doesn't have to be black to get it to lock.

These workarounds are ok in emergency or field situations, but you should NEVER get used to making this a normal operating procedure. I have no idea of what Mr. Cofe does for a living - perhaps he is a struggling film maker with limited funds, or a student, that cannot afford a black generator, and has found successful work arounds, so he can avoid the purchase of a black generator. But if you are a professional, with professional equipment, and you do not purchase the correct equipment - be it a black gen, good speakers, an accurate monitor, an audio mixer, correct disk drives that support the resolution that you need to work at - YOU ARE AN IDIOT.

Bob Zelin


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Cofe
Re: Do I need a blackburst generator
by
on Jul 26, 2007 at 3:18:25 am

I think you should seriously consider an anger management session.

and while your at it, take a course in video too :-)


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pom_boarder
Re: Do I need a blackburst generator
on Jul 26, 2007 at 7:31:15 am

And to keep things on topic and not descend into open warfare, how is it that others can get the beta to work with the kona in the absence of a BBG and I couldn't. Is it a setting on the beta deck or on my system?

Thanks.

Richard


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Cofe
Re: Do I need a blackburst generator
by
on Jul 26, 2007 at 8:32:13 pm

that is a good question! I assume you work in ntsc and because I'm in pal country I lag the experience for this TV format.
I would try to find the problem starting with the following:
I would look at to what the video sync on the Beta vtr is set to (menu): ref in or video in. It should be set to video in if you don't have a ref signal.
Also I would try to remove the video in from the kona card as it might be trying to sync itself onto this signal if there is no ref signal present (this is a guess again as I don't have a kona card, maybe there is a setting in the control panel for the kona?)
It will be a game of eliminating possible reasons.


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Alan Okey
Re: Do I need a blackburst generator
on Jul 26, 2007 at 8:25:06 am

[Cofe] "and while your at it, take a course in video too :-)"

Bob will take those classes just as soon as you take that remedial English course...


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David Battistella
Re: Do I need a blackburst generator
on Jul 27, 2007 at 2:50:14 am



Now,now folks.

Let's cool off and make up.

The pasture is a friendly place.

David



Peace and Love :)
Read my Blog
http://blogs.creativecow.net/DavidBattistella


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weevie833
Re: Do I need a blackburst generator
on Jul 27, 2007 at 3:53:59 am

Easy, easy, Mr. Z - I love ya, but you're crossing the line here. Borrow my kids' Teletubbies vids and turn up some Pink Floyd. I almost got into a brawl with some guy about whether bowling is as 'legitimate' a sport as table tennis [which it is], but it proved not worth jeopardizing 21 years of corrective dental work. Same applies here with regard to compromised reference sync practices. Some men simply like making extra work for themselves so their wives leave them alone. ;-)

steve covello


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Cofe
Re: Do I need a blackburst generator
by
on Jul 27, 2007 at 4:01:27 am

Your right David!
Sorry if I offended anyone, specially Bob.
I just felt that his first reply was a bit harsh and was putting pom_boarder down for asking a relevant question.
Lately I feel that some of the replies here on the cow are a bit to much 'don't you know this!' responses. Maybe the trick could be if you feel the answer is to obvious and to simple for once personal liking not to post at all... And yes I too should think more before I type :-) (and spell check...)


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pom_boarder
Re: Do I need a blackburst generator
on Jul 27, 2007 at 5:53:50 am

Now that peace and balance is restored. Do I need blackburst for a digi-beta dub? and how come a blackburst isn't always needed?


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Alexander Serpico
Re: Do I need a blackburst generator
on Jul 27, 2007 at 5:58:25 am

ugh oh...

you should have just bought the black burst generator, and let this thread die...


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JeremyG
Re: Do I need a blackburst generator
on Jul 27, 2007 at 1:49:09 pm

[pom_boarder] "Do I need blackburst for a digi-beta dub?"

Professional VTRs love blackburst like kids love candy.........


With the AJA Gen10 it's really a no brainer..........


Jeremy






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RARudio
Re: Do I need a blackburst generator
on Jul 27, 2007 at 3:57:57 pm

Amen...

Just wish AJA would print in huge, black and bold size 72 Swiss fonts that you need to buy the power supply for the Gen10... or their HD10AVA converters. This is the second time in a month, I got my order from B&H, opened the box and there's no power supply. AJA is pointing at B&H that they should tell their customers the power supply for these units are sold separately. B&H never tells... so annoying specially when you order your units to be shipped overnight! Or better, just include the Power Supply and charge us for it.

Roland


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Bob Zelin
Re: Do I need a blackburst generator
on Jul 28, 2007 at 2:26:55 am

Good evening Mr. Pom Boarder -
This is what you are going to do this weekend. I have decided, that even if you have no food to eat for the next week, and you have to go into the streets to beg to feed your family, you will either go onto a mail order site (like http://www.bhphotovideo.com, or http://www.markertek.com), or go onto EBAY, and you are going to BUY A BLACK GENERATOR. Yes, you are going to do this. And your problems will be all gone. And you, just like the United Nations, will bring peace to this forum, by the simple purchase of a black generator. You will be happy, your edit system will be happy, and we will be happy.

OK, Mr. Pom Boarder - type with me - http://www.ebay.com .............

Bob Zelin


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pom_boarder
Re: Do I need a blackburst generator
on Jul 29, 2007 at 9:52:37 pm

To everyone who has responded to this post, thank you for your input, it is greatly appreciated. Bob, thank you especially for your detailed response.


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Alexander Serpico
Re: Do I need a blackburst generator
on Jul 30, 2007 at 4:31:35 am

>Do I need blackburst for a digi-beta dub?
YES, absolutely yes.

>and how come a blackburst isn't always needed?
it is always needed... unless you have 2 vhs decks connected with rca cables.



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JerryZ@BH
Re: Do I need a blackburst generator
on Jul 31, 2007 at 1:51:46 pm

For future reference, power supplies for Aja converters are listed in the accessories tab under the product description at B&H. They are labeled "this item is required" in red letters. We do miss a power supply here and there but its not always easy to keep tabs on over 250,000 items :)

jerryz@bhphotovideo.com


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