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ianfreeze
xenyx 802 ok for sound?
on Jul 24, 2007 at 3:48:32 am

I posted earlier about some audio clicks and pops im getting on capture through analogue audio with 59.94 720p dvcpro hd. I called AJA, they sent me a new card, im still getting the pops and clicks, so i wonder if maybe the mixer im using is not up to snuff. I did a search for it, a behringer xenyx 802 and didnt find anything, does anyone out there know if the mixer could cause this issue?


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JeremyG
Re: xenyx 802 ok for sound?
on Jul 24, 2007 at 4:17:13 am

Do you have reference, what is your reference set up to?


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Bob Zelin
Re: xenyx 802 ok for sound?
on Jul 24, 2007 at 10:15:39 am

your mixer is not the problem. EXACTLY what software driver do you have loaded in for your Kona card (and "I loaded in the driver that came with the Kona card" is not the correct answer).

Bob Zelin


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ianfreeze
Re: xenyx 802 ok for sound?
on Jul 24, 2007 at 1:00:45 pm

I installed the latest drivers from the aja site (4.0), in my info pane there are no conflicts or missing components, my reference is set to "video in". I know that with that erference setting I'm going to have aduio clicks while monitoring as I'm recording, but from what I understand the clicking shouldnt be present when playing the newly recorded file back, sadly it is. I have a strang feeling theres some check box I'm missing somewhere or something silly like that. Thanks for your help guys. Here are my system specs if that could help shed some light on things.

dual 1.8 G5
2 ghz RAM
160 gig system drive
400 gig media drive
osx 10.4.10
fcp 6.0.1
card is in the 133 mhz pcix slot.


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JeremyG
Re: xenyx 802 ok for sound?
on Jul 24, 2007 at 6:54:30 pm

Do you have a blackburst generator?


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ianfreeze
Re: xenyx 802 ok for sound?
on Jul 24, 2007 at 7:57:58 pm

I don't. That would be ideal, but I'm just a guy doing some freelance work from home, as much as I'd like one, I don't see it happening in the near future. The workflow Im using is interesting to say the least. I'm using a DVI to component adapter sending a 720p 59.94 signal out of the client computer and into the my mac via the kona, Im wanting to add some audio/voice over to the video signal, thats where the clicks and pops come in. I'm hoping theres a way to lose the clicks and pops without a sync generator.


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JeremyG
Re: xenyx 802 ok for sound?
on Jul 24, 2007 at 8:04:55 pm

[ianfreeze] " Im wanting to add some audio/voice over to the video signal"

They aren't mp3 files are they? If so, convert to 48k 16 bit aiffs.

Also. uninstall and reinstall your Kona drivers.


Jeremy


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ianfreeze
Re: xenyx 802 ok for sound?
on Jul 24, 2007 at 8:42:22 pm

No, they aren't mp3's. Im running a mic into the mixer input, and running that into the kona. I should have clarified, I apologize.


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Bob Zelin
Re: xenyx 802 ok for sound?
on Jul 25, 2007 at 1:45:38 am

you write -
I don't. That would be ideal, but I'm just a guy doing some freelance work from home, as much as I'd like one, I don't see it happening in the near future. The workflow Im using is interesting to say the least. I'm using a DVI to component adapter sending a 720p 59.94 signal out of the client computer and into the my mac via the kona, Im wanting to add some audio/voice over to the video signal, thats where the clicks and pops come in. I'm hoping theres a way to lose the clicks and pops without a sync generator

REPLY -
if anyone has a bottle of cyanide, or similar poison, would you please send it to my home address.

Bob Zelin


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ianfreeze
Re: xenyx 802 ok for sound?
on Jul 25, 2007 at 2:28:02 am

well bob, if iI had a bottle I would send it to you, I can only assume your wish for death is a result of my need for a tri-level sync or black burst generator. I'm sorry I made you want to die. If I am wrong please someone let me know, I don't want bob to die.


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Bob Zelin
Re: xenyx 802 ok for sound?
on Jul 25, 2007 at 2:46:36 am

At the beginning, I was thinking that this was a sync issue between your DVCProHD VTR and your Kona product, and the requirement or issue with sync. But you don't need a sync generator - I have NO IDEA of what is going on here. What is your workflow ?

YOU WRITE -
I'm using a DVI to component adapter sending a 720p 59.94 signal out of the client computer and into the my mac via the kona

REPLY - exactly what on earth are you doing. What is the client computer, what is the source material ? Is it FCP that was digitized, or is this some graphics program ? What kind of DVI to component adaptor are you using - a Matrox MXO, some home made cable? You have zillions of variables here? I thought (we thought) you were coming from an AJ-HD1200, 1400, and getting audio pops. I had no idea you were dealing with this insanity.

Please tell me what the source computer is, what the source material is, what the DVI converter is, and I will attempt to assist you.
You do not have a sync issue here, but you may have an unusable workflow.

Bob Zelin


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ianfreeze
Re: xenyx 802 ok for sound?
on Jul 25, 2007 at 5:59:48 am








thats the adapter, its made by ATI, its plugged into an ati x1950 pro that resides in a PC. The control panel for the x1950 card is set to 720p output. As you can see the cables plug into the RGB input of my KONA card that is in my mac. In the control panel for my KONA it tells me that a 720p 59.94 signal is coming in through the analogue inputs. Is this the best way to do this...no, i know this, is this the only way I can afford right now, yes. Im using this whole setup to record a narative program filmed inside a video game. Now that you all know how massive a dork I am I hope I am not laughed out of the internet.

Bob, I looked at the Matrox MXO you mentioned, that would do exactly what I want, but I cant drop another grand for another piece of equipment. If Im dumb and wasting everyones time, I apologize, I just thought that since 95% of all problems are user error that there was some check box or menu setting I was missing that would take care of the clicks and pops. Since all of you guys have been doing this stuff for a while, I thought something might stand out. The case seems to be that what Im doing just isnt going to work how I want it to unless theres still something Im missing.


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Jeff Bernstein
Re: xenyx 802 ok for sound?
on Jul 25, 2007 at 7:16:35 am

I have a pack of BubbleYum I would like to donate to the installation.

Jeff


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ianfreeze
Re: xenyx 802 ok for sound?
on Jul 25, 2007 at 12:46:34 pm

its not pretty, I know, but we get a great looking image. I know it sounds stupid, but I wanted to bring what amount of professionalism I have to the project. I dont know a ton, but I know some knowledge from the short amount of time I spent at a post house in dallas, and Im just trying to using the knowledge I have to do something that no one has done before in this genre (machinima...google it, its a whole other story). Again I apologize if im just being studpid, I just want to make this project as good as it can be, I know you guys all do the same. Thats why I asked for advice here.


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JeremyG
Re: xenyx 802 ok for sound?
on Jul 25, 2007 at 2:39:11 pm

You know what Ian, don't worry about it. There's many times when I work with 'professionals' that bring me a web movie, or a VHS or some such and they want me to up-convert it so they can fit it in to this beautiful HD program that we shot and edited. There's nothing that doesn't surprise me anymore. In your case, your are trying to capture a high quality image and then keep high quality. WHo can fault you for that? The only problem is that you are having trouble with your gear because it's non standard, and this place that you turned to is the right place to turn to. Also, I like video games and have seen a couple minutes of red vs blue. Dork you say? How about hero. I wish I had the time to work on fun stuff like this.

Now that we know what you have to work with (and next time, don't be shy, tell us right off the bat what you are dealing with, it makes it a lot easier), I took a look at those pictures. What's the big silver connector that's attached to your XLR cable of the Kona?

Jeremy


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ianfreeze
Re: xenyx 802 ok for sound?
on Jul 25, 2007 at 3:44:52 pm

The main outputs of the mixer are 1/4", thats a 1/4" to XLR adapter sending the main out of the mixer to the analogue in of the kona.






Heres a picture of the mixer Im using, if that helps at all.

the mic is plugged into channel 1 through the xlr plug, the output goes out into the aforementioned 1/4" to xlr adapter and then into the kona. The levels are all fine, nothings peaking or anything like that, its just these subtle random clicks and pops. If it might help I could post a link to one of the sound files that has that clicks in it.


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JeremyG
Re: xenyx 802 ok for sound?
on Jul 25, 2007 at 4:33:04 pm

Yes, that would help. Please post.


Also, I re-read and you are trying to do voice over while capturing? That might be the issue. Try capturing the audio/video without the mic attached. ALso, set your ref in on the control panel to free run. Record the voice over later.


Jeremy



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ianfreeze
Re: xenyx 802 ok for sound?
on Jul 25, 2007 at 11:33:37 pm

Well, the signal coming out of the PC is our footage, our characters bobbind their heads (just like red vs blue does) but we cant do the audio in game because a small icon will appear over their heads indicating they are the ones talking, so for the editor I wanted there to be a scratch track of the dialogue to help him edit. Imagine trying to cut a scene of people talking, but theres no audio. Just moving lips and bobbing heads. Itd drive you up the wall. So i got the mixer so I could plug in a mic to lay down a scratch audio track so that the editor can have some clue of what is happeneing in the scene as opposed to just seeing silent head bobs. does that make sense?

heres a link to the bad audio
http://sherman.unsquare.com/CreativeCow/BadAudio_1-2.aif

the more I hear people respond the more it seems like im just going to have to deal with the clicks and pops, the reason i brought it up is that it seems like a silly problem to have. I mean a Kona card is 1600-1800 bucks, am I asking too much from my card, or is my computer just too slow? I dont know, Im just trying to wrap my head around why this is even happening in the first place? Thanks for you help again guys, Its very informative.

Jeremy, when we launch the site early next month, ill pm you a link to the site. If you liked RvB youll probably like this.


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JeremyG
Re: xenyx 802 ok for sound?
on Jul 26, 2007 at 2:16:58 am

That sounds like a sync issue (the audio is not syncing to the video which makes sense as your two inputs aren't 'sunc').

Did you try setting your reference in the KOna control panel to free run?

Also, I'd still record the video first, and then record the scratch track separate (you can use the voice over tool in FCP, check the manual) after the video is recorded.

Jeremy


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Bob Zelin
Re: xenyx 802 ok for sound?
on Jul 26, 2007 at 2:36:00 am

the real issue here is that we are ASSUMING that the ATI card is putting out a 720p signal that the Kona card want's to see. I have no idea if this is a "legit" 720p signal, like you would get from a Panny VTR or camera. There is no way to "genlock" this device, so Jeremy's advice of running "free run" in the Kona Control Panel is absolutely necessary. There is nothing wrong with your audio mixer, or the way you want to input your audio into the Kona. If you keep getting the pops, the only way I could tell if you had a problem with your Kona board is to try a "legit" 720p source, to see if it would make a difference. AJA is very aware of popping issues they had in the past with 720p material and the DVCProHD codec, and this was resolved with 3.4 drivers. But you have a VERY UNUSUAL source, and I don't think that anyone want's to take the responsibility for assuring you that this input source is "kosher" for the Kona's input.

I know that this is not what you wanted to hear, and I am sure that you don't have ready access to a DVCProHD VTR for testing.

Bob Zelin


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ianfreeze
Re: xenyx 802 ok for sound?
on Jul 26, 2007 at 3:30:06 am

I do actually, Ill see if I can get one from work and test it out. Its a 1400. If it turns out that when inputing from the 1400 the pops disappear, that just means the pops are a result of my strange input signal?


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JeremyG
Re: xenyx 802 ok for sound?
on Jul 26, 2007 at 3:36:41 am

HAVE YOU TRIED FREE RUN?


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ianfreeze
Re: xenyx 802 ok for sound?
on Jul 26, 2007 at 4:25:01 am

yes, I did, the pops were still there as well as the audio losing sync with the image making it completely useless.


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JeremyG
Re: xenyx 802 ok for sound?
on Jul 26, 2007 at 7:56:07 pm

Record your video, the way you want it. Record a scratch track using the voice over tool in FCP.

That's your best bet.


Jeremy


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ianfreeze
Re: xenyx 802 ok for sound?
on Jul 26, 2007 at 8:32:58 pm

cool, i guess thats what we'll end up doing.

so, just to say ive learned something from this thread, its that the cause of the problem is my imperfect input signal combined with some nuance of the dvcpro hd codec that is leading to the pops?


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Bob Zelin
Re: xenyx 802 ok for sound?
on Jul 26, 2007 at 11:15:09 pm

Ian - this is what you have learned from this thread. You will get your hands on a AJ-HD1400, and a black generator. You will genlock the AJA Kona and the HD1400 with color black with 2 different feeds from the black generator, and terminate these feeds (the HD1400 will have auto termination, the Kona will not). You will set your Kona Control Panel "control" tab to EXT REF, and you will capture video material at 720p. You will insure that you have drivers installed that are at least V3.4 or V4. If you STILL have audio popping, I urge you to stop posting on the forum, pick up the telephone, and call AJA, and start yelling.

Bob Zelin


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ianfreeze
Re: xenyx 802 ok for sound?
on Aug 16, 2007 at 1:40:51 pm

Another update. I solved the problem. Its very strange that this worked, but it seemed to do the trick. Before, I was running the audio into the mixer, and the main output of the mixer into the analogue in of the Kona. Now i send the audio signal straight into the analogue in of the Kona (bypassing the mixer) and then sending the analogue output to the mixer for monitoring. This seems to fix the problem. My audio stays in sync, and clicks and pops. I have no idea what this means, but if anyone out there was still curious its food for thought.


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JeremyG
Re: xenyx 802 ok for sound?
on Jul 27, 2007 at 2:41:45 am

[ianfreeze] "its that the cause of the problem is my imperfect input signal combined with some nuance of the dvcpro hd codec that is leading to the pops?"

It's not the codec, it's your varied signals.



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ianfreeze
Re: xenyx 802 ok for sound?
on Aug 2, 2007 at 4:38:37 pm

Update: For what its worth, I talked to a friend in dallas who told me to try plugging in a standard def color bars signal into the ref in of my card then try recording and see if the clicks and pops and audio/video sync drift persisted. I did and the clicks and pops went away, but my audio/video sync drift remained.

I was doing some digging and I found the HD10AVA from aja

http://www.aja.com/html/products_converters_HD10AVA.html

Since this can combine analogue audio with component video could that take care of the audio/video sync drift?
This converter doesnt have a ref in port, will that be a problem?


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JeremyG
Re: xenyx 802 ok for sound?
on Aug 2, 2007 at 4:49:12 pm

Not sure, I'd call AJA for the definitive answer, but I'd guess that it would reclock the signals for you and produce a stable image.


Jeremy



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ianfreeze
I tried to private message you
on Aug 7, 2007 at 12:26:44 am

but i didnt see a link to PM anyone, so heres the link to the first episode of the show. if you interested check it out.

http://www.theleetworld.com


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