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The color red, even in uncompressed 10-bit FCP.

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Alexander Serpico
The color red, even in uncompressed 10-bit FCP.
on Jul 22, 2007 at 7:33:41 pm

I come across the issue of uncompressed 10bit not being able to hold up with some strong reds. Often stepping in chroma, which I expect and accept in DV, is apparent even in 10bit. This issue is my top frustration when it rears its ugly head (since i cant fully understand it) when I'm in the middle of a conform using FCP.

Is this really just a limitation of 4:2:2, or some other limitation of the codec?
While I have previously figured how to deal with it as best I could, this can't possibly be acceptable as is. Anyone come across/have a method of dealing with or improving this?



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szumlins
Re: The color red, even in uncompressed 10-bit FCP.
on Jul 22, 2007 at 9:19:31 pm

What is your source?

---

--

-Mike


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Alexander Serpico
Re: The color red, even in uncompressed 10-bit FCP.
on Jul 22, 2007 at 11:14:29 pm

Ive had this issue with both digibeta xfers and graphics.



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weevie833
Re: The color red, even in uncompressed 10-bit FCP.
on Jul 23, 2007 at 12:49:24 am

There have been previous strings about problems with 10-bit UC and color corrections not 'sticking'. Snoop around a bit. [sorry for being lazy].

It seems unresolved whether it is a QT or an FCP issue, from last I read. There were some workarounds suggested, so it's not hopeless.

steve covello


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JeremyG
Re: The color red, even in uncompressed 10-bit FCP.
on Jul 23, 2007 at 2:12:19 am

Does it do down to tape that way? What do your scopes say?


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walter biscardi
Re: The color red, even in uncompressed 10-bit FCP.
on Jul 23, 2007 at 12:39:46 pm

[JeremyG] "What do your scopes say?"

Yes, this is one I was wondering about. Are your reds legal or are they out of legal? Especially in SD, red is a very touchy color and can cause issues in a hurry.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
http://www.biscardicreative.com
HD Editorial & Animation for Broadcast and independent productions.

All Things Apple Podcast! http://cowcast.creativecow.net/all_things_apple/index.html

Read my blog! http://blogs.creativecow.net/WalterBiscardi


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Alexander Serpico
Re: The color red, even in uncompressed 10-bit... a picture example.
on Jul 24, 2007 at 12:00:39 am

Everyone please check out this still:

http://www.alexanderserpico.com/images/fcp_textonred.jpg

it is grey text over red. ive put the scopes next to it, and nothing is illegal.
yet it breaks apart, and chroma jaggies are visible.

if i make the grey text white, yes it looks fine over the red.

So back to my original question, is this a limitation of the codec?

If everyone says "well just dont use that color", my response to you will be
i can't say that to a client... or he will go conform on a Henry, etc.




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Alexander Serpico
Re: The color red, even in uncompressed 10-bit... a picture example.
on Jul 24, 2007 at 12:06:57 am

> yet it breaks apart, and chroma jaggies are visible.

to correct myself, the text looks more jaggy than the chroma.. but that too is visible when going out to a monitor...

and to be more specific,
text made in text tool, title 3d, or brought in from photoshop, all break apart over that red.



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JeremyG
Re: The color red, even in uncompressed 10-bit... a picture example.
on Jul 24, 2007 at 2:55:17 am

Alright. Just asking, but is everything rendered? What does it look when going down to tape, and you are also looking at a production monitor, correct? The canvas is not an accurate monitor, as I'm sure you know.

I have seen this before and it gets cleaned up when going to tape. Red is always a difficult video color, in my experience anyway. What happens if you take a little red saturation out? I notice that it's legal according to FCP scopes, do you have external scopes?

As far as clients telling you they want a different red, you know I'm sure, that video doesn't include every color in the spectrum and some play better and hold up better than others. Just like Walter said, SD red can be problematic when saturated (which this obviously is as the red falls within the target).

I encourage you to lay that section to tape and watch the playback. See what happens and report back, even though I think you said you did that.

Have you tried blurring the red channel a bit, or isolate that red, being down sat and see what happens?

Jeremy


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Alexander Serpico
Any other thoughts about the photo?
on Jul 24, 2007 at 1:59:47 pm

Yes everything is rendered...
On a production monitor it still looks terrible, and also when laid off to digi.
I don't have external scopes currently.

>As far as clients telling you they want a different red
I was referring to using gray type on that red.

In this case when I did this a few weeks ago, I ended up blurring the red and pulling it's saturation way down, putting a little bit of a white outline on the text. It still looked bad, but on one said anything. I don't like just "getting away" with problems like that...

So once again my original question, is this just a limitation of the codec or a weakness of final cut? I want to know if i have to tell a client that i cant do something like that cause it is technically not possible, or technically not possible with final cut.



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Tcurren
Re: The color red, even in uncompressed 10-bit FCP.
on Jul 23, 2007 at 5:57:16 am

[alexander serpico] "I come across the issue of uncompressed 10bit not being able to hold up with some strong reds. Often stepping in chroma, which I expect and accept in DV, is apparent even in 10bit."


What format are you coming from? How are you monitoring? This isn't enough info. For example, ALL LCD monitors are 8 bit. Digibeta decks can be set up to playback in 8 bit or 10 bit. Etc.

Terence Curren
http://www.alphadogs.tv
http://www.digitalservicestation.com
Burbank,Ca


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christopherkarcher
Re: The color red, even in uncompressed 10-bit FCP.
on Jul 24, 2007 at 5:15:43 pm

this is absolutley a problem- we did an entire series of political ads- all had red text and the only workaround was to render using the RGB AJA codec and lift the black levels.


We believe it is a problem with the apple uncompressed codec- I discussed this with an apple rep @ NAB and after much discussion, apple did admit a problem... but it was supposed to be fixed in FCP2.

If it has not been fixed- BAD on apple and bad on us for not pushing the issue.


this is absolutley a problem with quicktime and it would be great if AJA would support us and take it up with thier contacts at Apple. So far, nobody has really resolved it.





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Alexander Serpico
Re: The color red, even in uncompressed 10-bit FCP.
on Jul 24, 2007 at 7:50:37 pm

thx christopher. i remember now that i once also switched to RGB in the past out of desperation...



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Alexander Serpico
What other codec could i use to conform?
on Jul 24, 2007 at 10:15:21 pm

Is there another codec anyone could suggest?
If i were to use an RGB codec, what is the proper conversion/image adjustment that should be made?


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Alexander Serpico
Sheer?
on Jul 24, 2007 at 10:19:03 pm

Anyone have experience with Sheer over Apple UC? I always hear nothing but good things about it.


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John Pale
Re: Sheer?
on Jul 24, 2007 at 10:25:47 pm

[alexander serpico] "Anyone have experience with Sheer over Apple UC? I always hear nothing but good things about it.
"



Hehehehe,

only limited experience with it. you get no realtime, as its not supported by RTxtreme. I've not used it since switching to the Kona card.

They claim to have superior color fidelity to other codecs. Definitely worth giving it a shot with a fully functional demo.


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Alexander Serpico
The problem is Apple's UC codec.
on Jul 24, 2007 at 10:57:08 pm

Coincidentally I have a new spot im working on now with lots of colorful red graphics, which all look bad. This is what sparked my dash today to posting so many times....

I revisited Marco Solorio's OneRiver Media codec site, where he explains Apple's codec lacks a chroma filter "which makes things appear jaggie".

So now with Sheer Y'CbCr 10bv 4:2:2 installed, it all looks like it should.
There is no brightness shift like with using RGB, but there is a shift that happens in the viewer/canvas, but it does not go out through the Kona.

I think im sold on the Sheer Codec.
Can anyone think of a reason, or have past experience which suggests this might is a bad idea?
(With a 30 second spot i dont care if i have to render, it just needs to look perfect.)


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John Pale
Re: The problem is Apple's UC codec.
on Jul 24, 2007 at 11:20:20 pm

[alexander serpico] "Can anyone think of a reason, or have past experience which suggests this might is a bad idea?"

If it does not go out thru the Kona, how will you output to tape? Or do you need to?


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John Pale
Re: The problem is Apple's UC codec.
on Jul 24, 2007 at 11:22:55 pm

[John Pale] "If it does not go out thru the Kona, how will you output to tape? Or do you need to?

"


Never mind...read you post wrong. Good luck with Sheer!


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John Pale
Re: What other codec could i use to conform?
on Jul 24, 2007 at 10:21:37 pm

Never tried it with the Kona, but the Sheer Video codec is very good.
No RT with this codec though.


http://www.bitjazz.com/en/products/sheervideo/

You can download a fully functional trial version


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Marco Solorio
Re: The color red, even in uncompressed 10-bit FCP.
on Jul 25, 2007 at 6:45:34 pm

Just a note that Apple's uncompressed codecs have never faired well with regard to chroma jaggies. This is due to the chroma filter (or lack thereof) that they employ. However, the upside to it is that it holds up incredibly well under numerous re-encoding generations.

I've pleaded for years with Apple to implement optional settings in their uncompressed codecs, or at the very least implement at better algorithm. At one point I thought things were going to happen when I was communicating directly with the Apple developers a few years back, but nothing came out of it and we still have the same anomalies to this day. At which point, I've given up all hopes of updates.

Definitely use Sheer if you don't mind the RT hit.

Marco Solorio


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walter biscardi
Re: The color red, even in uncompressed 10-bit FCP.
on Jul 25, 2007 at 7:40:37 pm

[Marco Solorio] "Just a note that Apple's uncompressed codecs have never faired well with regard to chroma jaggies."

Makes you wish they would have just purchased the Aurora codecs and put them into the Studio package.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
http://www.biscardicreative.com
HD Editorial & Animation for Broadcast and independent productions.

All Things Apple Podcast! http://cowcast.creativecow.net/all_things_apple/index.html

Read my blog! http://blogs.creativecow.net/WalterBiscardi


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Marco Solorio
Re: The color red, even in uncompressed 10-bit FCP.
on Jul 26, 2007 at 6:57:38 am

[walter biscardi] "Makes you wish they would have just purchased the Aurora codecs and put them into the Studio package."

LOL!!! You just sang my song, Wally! Funny, those codecs must be about 6 or 7 years old now and yet I've still never seen better. With all the stuff Apple buys, you'd think they would!

Marco Solorio


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