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Mowbray
monitor hd on a WEAK bdget
on Jun 18, 2007 at 8:06:51 pm

so many questions... stepping into hd very slowly... water is cold for now... proud owner of a kona lhe with b/o box... now since i have switch to the hvx 200 and the firestore i know the lhe is not necessarily needed for capture but to monitor from my fcp timeline... this is inhouse stuff

if i strictly use the apple cinema display for monitoring is this taxing the system in a big way?

is there a decent monitor out there that i could run the component, out of the lhe, to... and have some reasonable picture to work with? (will be using 720p for now, 1080i in the future)

any suggestions or links would be most appreciated


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David Roth Weiss
Re: monitor hd on a WEAK bdget
on Jun 18, 2007 at 8:12:10 pm

That's easy http://www.visualapex.com/plasma/Plasma_details.asp?VA=Panasonic&chPartNumb...

"No job is worth doing more than once..."

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Post-production Supervisor
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles


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Mowbray
Re: monitor hd on a WEAK bdget
on Jun 18, 2007 at 9:04:31 pm

Nice! Thanks o'ton... this lhe should have no problem driving a 720p signal to that nice plasma... right?


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David Roth Weiss
Re: monitor hd on a WEAK bdget
on Jun 18, 2007 at 9:13:58 pm

No problem whatsoever, and it scales 1080i beautifully too. I use the previous generation of the same monitor with my LH and many others use these too. At NAB almost every booth was using these or the 50" models to show their HD wares.

Keep in mind, the monitor needs a mount, either on-wall or table top, as it comes with neither.

"No job is worth doing more than once..."

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Post-production Supervisor
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles


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walter biscardi
Re: monitor hd on a WEAK bdget
on Jun 18, 2007 at 9:20:28 pm

[David Roth Weiss] "No problem whatsoever, and it scales 1080i beautifully too. I use the previous generation of the same monitor with my LH and many others use these too. At NAB almost every booth was using these or the 50" models to show their HD wares.

Keep in mind, the monitor needs a mount, either on-wall or table top, as it comes with neither."


And it may or may not come standard with BNC inputs. I've noticed a few vendors selling this with RCA Component inputs which is also an option. Be sure it has the BNC inputs.

Panasonic plasmas are simply the best in the business right now and you can't beat these prices. I have two units here. might look at http://www.bhphoto.com and see if its cheaper there.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
http://www.biscardicreative.com
HD Editorial & Animation for Broadcast and independent productions.

All Things Apple Podcast! http://cowcast.creativecow.net/all_things_apple/index.html

Read my blog! http://blogs.creativecow.net/WalterBiscardi


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Mowbray
Re: monitor hd on a WEAK bdget
on Jun 18, 2007 at 9:31:37 pm

hey the water seems a little warmer now... any opinions on the matrox mxo?


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Bob Zelin
Re: monitor hd on a WEAK bdget
on Jun 18, 2007 at 10:51:10 pm

the Matrox MXO is an excellent device for OUTPUT ONLY. I urge you to purchase a product that you can input from, as well as output - like an AJA Kona LHe, Kona 3, or I/O HD (and Blackmagic is good too).

As for the monitors, if $1000 is too much money for you, the Dell 2407WFP is around $600, has RCA HD Y Pb Pr inputs, and works if you are on a tight budget. No, it is not as good as the Panasonic, but it works just fine, and many people use it.

Bob Zelin


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Shane Ross
Re: monitor hd on a WEAK bdget
on Jun 18, 2007 at 11:53:00 pm

Yes, the MXO is output only, but it does turn the ACD and Dell monitors into broadcast quality monitors. Hooking the Kona LH to the Plasma or Dell 2407 won't. It will get you a very decent client monitor, but not color correctable. MXO/Apple or Dell will. And if you capture via firewire (DVCPRO HD, HDV, XDCAM) you don't REALLY need a card that captures. Although capturing HDV as DVCPRO HD is a fine thing, and any of them to ProRes is a plus.

BUT...you already have the Kona LH so the point is moot. For client monitoring, both the Dell and the Panasonic plasma are fine (I have both and both look great!). But when it comes time to color correct, if you are doing it, look for an HD LCD broadcast monitor that connects to your Kona. No need to go and get the MXO when you have a card.


Shane

Littlefrog Post
http://www.lfhd.net


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David Roth Weiss
Re: monitor hd on a WEAK bdget
on Jun 19, 2007 at 12:28:08 am

[Shane Ross] "Yes, the MXO is output only, but it does turn the ACD and Dell monitors into broadcast quality monitors. Hooking the Kona LH to the Plasma or Dell 2407 won't."

Shane,

Can you explain this please? Inquiring minds want to know...



"No job is worth doing more than once..."

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Post-production Supervisor
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles


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Shane Ross
Re: monitor hd on a WEAK bdget
on Jun 19, 2007 at 12:36:47 am

Can I explain how the MXO makes the Apple Cinema Display into a color correction monitor? How it works with the Dell 2405 as well? Or explain why the Kona LH cannot? Or both?

Don't you read my blog? Shame David...click on Underdog...that will get you there. I have a couple articles on this, I'll just link to them now:

http://lfhd.blogspot.com/2007/03/matrox-mxo-part-2.html

Basically the MXO takes the YUV, Audio and TC information via the DVI port and can then output that SDI, Component, composite...or via DVI, converted in a way that makes the ACD or Dell display colors like you'd see on a regular HD LCD, and not a computer monitor. What makes this box even better, is that it offers a Pro Amp that give you control over Saturation, Hue, Brightness and Contrast...AND gives you a blue only option so that you can properly set up bars. I got the image on my ACD to be VERY CLOSE to what I saw on my HD CRT. I mean VERY close.



Shane

Littlefrog Post
http://www.lfhd.net


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David Roth Weiss
Re: monitor hd on a WEAK bdget
on Jun 19, 2007 at 12:48:44 am

I have an aversion to blogs, but in your case I'll make an exception.

Meanwhile, the MXO sounds interesting, but why can it turn the LCDs you mentioned into a broadcast monitor, but not a plasma?

TIA,
David


"No job is worth doing more than once..."

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Post-production Supervisor
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles


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Shane Ross
Re: monitor hd on a WEAK bdget
on Jun 19, 2007 at 12:52:01 am

[David Roth Weiss] "

I have an aversion to blogs, but in your case I'll make an exception."


I understand completely.

[David Roth Weiss] "Meanwhile, the MXO sounds interesting, but why can it turn the LCDs you mentioned into a broadcast monitor, but not a plasma?"

Because they have different characteristics. LCDs and Plasmas do things in VERY different ways. But, with the new 2.0 software...you can get close I'll wager. I'll have to drag it into my office...or drag my laptop and MXO and CRT out to the living room to check one of these days I suppose.



Shane

Littlefrog Post
http://www.lfhd.net


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David Roth Weiss
Re: monitor hd on a WEAK bdget
on Jun 19, 2007 at 1:09:46 am

[Shane Ross] "Because they have different characteristics. LCDs and Plasmas do things in VERY different ways."

Sure, but I would imagine that it might actually be easier to get close with a plasma than with an LCD, simply because they are more CRT-like. But, if the MXO was designed for LCDs that would kind of kill my concept.



"No job is worth doing more than once..."

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Post-production Supervisor
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles


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Mowbray
Re: monitor hd on a WEAK bdget
on Jun 19, 2007 at 1:28:06 am

this is a great discussion... yes i do already have the lhe... it is being under used because i use the hvx and firestore... kind of got caught in the area where by the time i afford the system... two or three months later p2 hit, the the firestore, then dvcpro hd qt to the timeline... nice


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Sean ONeil
Re: monitor hd on a WEAK bdget
on Jun 19, 2007 at 7:25:05 am

Since you have an LHE, you can get an SDI-DVI converter from AJA or Blackmagic, which will give you the same YUV-over-DVI output that a MXO will.

Sean


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Shane Ross
Re: monitor hd on a WEAK bdget
on Jun 19, 2007 at 7:30:20 am

[Sean ONeil] "which will give you the same YUV-over-DVI output that a MXO will."

With one MAJOR difference. No software PRO AMP that will get you BLUE ONLY and the proper controls for adjusting the monitor for color correction.

Or...hmmm...I think the HD Link from Decklink might have that in the software. I heard someone mention that, but I don't know for sure. Don't have one. That might be an option, since you have the LH card already.


Shane

Littlefrog Post
http://www.lfhd.net


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Simmie
Re: monitor hd on a WEAK bdget
on Jun 19, 2007 at 4:09:24 pm

[Shane Ross] "I think the HD Link from Decklink might have that in the software. I heard someone mention that, but I don't know for sure."

It does indeed have a blue-only option, accessed via the software interface. Also settings for custom lookup table values, and colour settings. I have one, so I can confirm it's existence.

-Simmie
2 G5 - Kona LH
3 G4s - Cinewave
1 xbox360, 1 PSP, 1 PS2 & a Gamecube
http://www.speak.co.uk


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Sean ONeil
Re: monitor hd on a WEAK bdget
on Jun 19, 2007 at 8:48:31 pm

[Shane Ross] "I think the HD Link from Decklink might have that in the software"

It does.

Sean


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David Roth Weiss
Re: monitor hd on a WEAK bdget
on Jun 18, 2007 at 9:31:59 pm

[walter biscardi] "And it may or may not come standard with BNC inputs. I've noticed a few vendors selling this with RCA Component inputs which is also an option. Be sure it has the BNC inputs."

VisualApex sells the BNC model and even gives all buyers free RCA to BNC converters in case they have the opposite issue -- i.e using a consumer compenent cable.



"No job is worth doing more than once..."

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Post-production Supervisor
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles


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Sean ONeil
Re: monitor hd on a WEAK bdget
on Jun 19, 2007 at 7:23:56 am

[David Roth Weiss] "VisualApex sells the BNC model and even gives all buyers free RCA to BNC converters in case they have the opposite issue -- i.e using a consumer compenent cable."

As long as the RCA connectors and/or adapters are 75 ohms, it makes no difference.

Sean


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David Roth Weiss
Re: monitor hd on a WEAK bdget
on Jun 19, 2007 at 7:46:24 am

All we're saying is consumers never know what to do with BNC connectors on monitors and we always want 'em to have BNCs.

"No job is worth doing more than once..."

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Post-production Supervisor
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles


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tcurren
Re: monitor hd on a WEAK bdget
on Jun 19, 2007 at 12:30:32 pm

Okay, I tried to not jump in here, but I couldn't hold myself back. No magic box is going to make an LCD the same as a broadcast CRT. If it was possible, Sony and eCinema wouldn't have a market for their 30K and 45K monitors that are coming out.

First, off axis viewing goes to hell with an LCD. Trying to have the client and the operator both sit dead on is nigh impossible.

Second, most LCDs do not have an even backlight. In other words, they have flourescent bulbs in the back so the light gets brighter and darker throughout the screen. You may not be able to easily see it, but it is there.

Third, most of those lights cannot be set to 6504 kelvin which is the SMPTE spec for a reference monitor.

Fourth, by design, an LCD cannot produce blacks like a CRT or even a projected film. Makes jusdging the blacks for those venues VERY difficult.

Fifth, can you say 8 bit? Doesn't matter if your software / hardware works in 32 bit float. The LCD panel is 8bit! In other words, when you see that banding you will never know for sure whether it is in your program or your LCD monitor.

This is why SED technology should have been here two years ago. This is why Sony and eCinema are putting individual LEDs behind each pixel atgreat expense to try to emulate a CRTs response.

I'm not saying you can't do what you want to do on a cheap LCD, I just want to make sure people realize it DOESN'T match a CRT regardless of your magic boxes.

Terence Curren
http://www.alphadogs.tv
http://www.digitalservicestation.com
Burbank,Ca


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Sean ONeil
Re: monitor hd on a WEAK bdget
on Jun 19, 2007 at 9:00:49 pm

I don't think SED will ever come out. There's some kind of lawsuit going on, and its commercial viability to price ratio keeps drifting away (do consumers care if its SED and not plasma or LCD?).

I think the broadcast monitors of 2010 will all be OLED. The problem is, what to do until then. Settle for an inferior LCD, or spend a fortune on gigantic, 200+ lbs. CRT that won't fit in most people's rooms.

Sean


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Shane Ross
Re: monitor hd on a WEAK bdget
on Jun 19, 2007 at 9:19:41 pm

Terrence...the whole point of this discussion is monitoring HD on a limited budget. Yes, we'd ALL love to have the money to afford a $45,000 monitor. But, we don't. Heck, my entire FCP edit system including HD CRT (PVM 14L5) costs less than those monitors.

So, what are the INEXPENSIVE alternatives? The MXO and Apple display are good examples. As are the Decklink Extreme + HD Link + Apple display. Is the image on the Apple display as good as that on the $45,000 eCinema? $35,000 Sony? OF COURSE NOT. They have a better contrast ratio, deeper blacks...a whole lot going for them.

But, does everyone need the $35,000 monitor? No...they don't. Can they afford the $1000/hour online bay that offers that? No. Not everyone needs that. DARN FEW people need and can afford that. CSI, 24, House, National Advertising...THEY utilize those bays. They are network shows with the budget to afford them. A few cable network shows can afford them to, but many can't, so they don't go to the Post Group or Riot or Encore to color correct. They might be someone who produces Surfing videos, or corporate videos, regional commercials, smaller cable companies. They can EASILY get by with the MXO.

Is it spot on? No. But it is close. Will you see the difference? Yes, in an online bay, you will. But by the time the show gets compressed, sent over the airwaves, and shows up on Pa Kettle's TV in Kentucky...or MY TV in Los Angeles...it won't look close to what you saw in the online bay. That is the only place you will see it that good.

Is that any reason to not strive to get the best image you can? No. And that is the point...to get the best image you can. Many people cannot afford the eCinema CRT replacement, or the Sony CRTs...or even the new LCDs. So they get what they can afford...the MXO...or Decklink and HD LINK...and an apple or dell display. That combo will get you a broadcast quality image...and is adjustable so you can balance them to bars.

The BEST? No. Good...workable...accurate? Yes.


Shane

Littlefrog Post
http://www.lfhd.net


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Bob Zelin
Re: monitor hd on a WEAK bdget
on Jun 19, 2007 at 10:21:00 pm

I already gave you the cheapest solution for a pro room - the Dell 2407. If you want to go to WalMart, I saw some 20" LCD's this weekend with RGB inputs for $279. These will work with the Kona product as well. You can always ask Grandma for her old Magavox console TV. Once the tubes warm up, do the following -

1) Take the AJA Kona Out Y, and using the control panel, on the analog tab, select COMPOSITE. '
2) go to Radio Shack, and buy a video to RF converter. Select the switch to channel 3.
3) plug the RF output of the Radio Shack video to RF adaptor into the antenna input of grandma's Maganvox TV Antenna input.
4) tune in channel 3, and start editing.
5) if this is still too expensive, please post your address, and I will send you a $100 gift certificate to Wal Mart so you can buy a TV
6) if this is still not an acceptable solution, than please post your address here, so I can fly over to your facility and hit you over the head with a lead pipe, becuase I am SICK OF THIS THREAD ALREADY.

Bob Zelin


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tcurren
Re: monitor hd on a WEAK bdget
on Jun 19, 2007 at 11:18:59 pm

[Shane Ross] "But by the time the show gets compressed, sent over the airwaves, and shows up on Pa Kettle's TV in Kentucky...or MY TV in Los Angeles...it won't look close to what you saw in the online bay."

That is not the point of a reference monitor. The point is to make sure that your show looks exactly the way you want it whether you work in one of my bays or a bay in NY.

The shows that grandma watches should be all be off by the same amount on her system. The shows that you watch on your TV should also be off by the same amount. your eye adjusts to your TV, so all the programs will seem right to you.

With your concept of "who cares it is going to look like crap at the end", none of us have a fighting chance of getting any consistency in our programs.


[Shane Ross] "The BEST? No. Good...workable...accurate? Yes."

I could easily prove to you that they aren't accurate, but you obviously didn't read my post. For starters, how do you adjust the backlight to 6504 Kelvin? Do you know why that is important?

I never said you have to change what you are doing, that is your world. I just said that you can't cheaply make an LCD look and behave like a CRT. If you want to argue that point, answer the points I made in my post. Otherwise you are just obfuscating the issue.

Terence Curren
http://www.alphadogs.tv
http://www.digitalservicestation.com
Burbank,Ca


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tony salgado
Re: monitor hd on a WEAK bdget
on Jun 20, 2007 at 7:05:09 am



Totally agree with you Terence however keep in mind for those budgetary challenged folks it is more about "is it good enough for their applications" which has little to do with consistency or maintaining uniform standards.

Some of these end users will never care to understand how to properly adjust gain and bias on any monitor to truly make it a color critical device worthy of serious color correction etc.


Again it is all about "is it good enuff" for their application. In most cases it will be for them but not for a higher end professional or facility that has to interchange their products with numerous vendors and/or facilities.



Just my two cents worth,



Tony Salgado


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tcurren
Re: monitor hd on a WEAK bdget
on Jun 20, 2007 at 4:27:17 pm

I get what you are saying Tony, and I agree that everyone is limited by their budget. I only jumped in here because someone was claiming you could use a magic box to make a standard LCD match a broadcast CRT. I wish someone would show me how to do that, I would turn around and approach Sony, Panasonic, JVC, eCinema, CineTal et.al. and sell the trick to the highest bidder. Then I could retire to paradise and buy ice cream off of Bob's truck all day.

Terence Curren
http://www.alphadogs.tv
http://www.digitalservicestation.com
Burbank,Ca


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Shane Ross
Re: monitor hd on a WEAK bdget
on Jun 20, 2007 at 7:26:05 pm

[tcurren] "I only jumped in here because someone was claiming you could use a magic box to make a standard LCD match a broadcast CRT"

I am that someone. And I will freely admit that I am not a professional colorist. That is not hwo I make my living. But I have onlined and color corrected shows (thus the title "online editor") when they couldn't afford a true colorist. My main talent is as an "offline" or creative editor. I can adjust a monitor to bars decently well, but I don't do it without assistance. I have a guy come in before I am about to color correct to re-balance my monitor. Mainly because I don't have the proper equipment to do this, and I want to be sure.

I know that D65...6500K...is the white point that your eye needs to adjust to in order to make sure that ALL the other colors are in fact true to color. Sorry, I didn't think that needed addressing. Now, when I did my tests I borrowed a monitor color balancing device, the Spyder 2, from a buddy. He in fact came to operate it because I didn't know. And we made sure that the white point of the LCD was 6500K...or as close as it could get.

Then I balanced the color bars to that setting and got a very good image. EXACTLY what I saw on my CRT? No...it was slightly greenish (slightly) and the blacks weren't as deep...and the LCD doesn't have the contrast ratio of the CRT, so that was a little off. So no, it wasn't perfect...it was close. And that is all I claimed...close. Good enough for several people. Network Broadcast? No. Regional commercials...corporate video...DVD sales...I'd say yes.

[tcurren] "I wish someone would show me how to do that,"

You are close...and you guys did an output for a show I worked on (BLOOD DIAMONDS)...so when I have some time I might come and show you.

Again, this in NO WAY compares to eCinema or high end Sony and Panasonic stuff. It is, after all, taking a computer monitor and doing what it does. But for low cost, low end stuff...it is a solution worth looking at.

IMHO.

Shane

Littlefrog Post
http://www.lfhd.net


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tcurren
Re: monitor hd on a WEAK bdget
on Jun 20, 2007 at 7:47:11 pm

[Shane Ross] "Again, this in NO WAY compares to eCinema or high end Sony and Panasonic stuff."


Shane,

For what it's worth, the high end monitors don't match a CRT either. :-(


Terence Curren
http://www.alphadogs.tv
http://www.digitalservicestation.com
Burbank,Ca


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Shane Ross
Re: monitor hd on a WEAK bdget
on Jun 20, 2007 at 7:48:53 pm

[tcurren] "For what it's worth, the high end monitors don't match a CRT either. :-("

Yeah, I saw that podcast discussion you guys had about that...with Mark Raudonis. Shame that the lower end CRTs like the one I have were discontinued.



Shane

Littlefrog Post
http://www.lfhd.net


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Yidhartha
Re: monitor hd on a WEAK bdget
on Jun 29, 2007 at 7:53:24 pm

Don't think anyone is still interested in this thread, but wanted to throw my experiences into the mix. After researching on Creative Cow several months ago I purchased a Panasonic 42" 9-UK( you know the series we've been discussing), a Sony PHM-14M8U a copy of Spyder Pro and AVIA. Total cost was about $2000. I calibrated my Apple Cinema Displays with Spyder and ran AVIA component to my Sony CRT and Panny display. I checked my various charts and scopes in FCP against what my Sony CRT is giving me and that's my color-correction monitor. A few tweaks to the plasma and it's extremely close (a little greener and a little brighter...very little)to the CRT. I find that the Cinema Displays match both the CRT and Plasma 90% of the time, but always one of the others.

I am not doing broadcast or promoting myself as a high end coloring service. However, for the money I have put together a system that is working for the level of my clients and their needs. When they need something more, I tell them what it will cost and send them to colleagues at bigger facilites. We are all commited to our client's needs and budgets. I think the point is that we are honest with ourselves about what services we can really provide. I work primarily in Indie film and documentary. I can edit, color-correct and even now on-line uncompressed HD; but I would never try to tackle something beyond my abilities when a client's project could suffer for it. That said, you know your clients and what they need. I was able to pull together and solid lower-end color and HD monitoring system for a good price using research forums on the Cow, and it's working great.

Best of luck,

Eric Grush
halo arts media entertainment



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