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best codec for onlining SD doc with Kona LHe?

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jbwjr22
best codec for onlining SD doc with Kona LHe?
on Jun 14, 2007 at 1:31:06 pm

I'm considering a new Kona LHe-FCP6 system for onlining a 90-min. biographical doc for PBS that I've offlined on my old FCP3 system in the DV codec. Source footage (interviews and archival) are BetaSP, and there are about 100 stills (hi-rez TIF scans of photos and documents) and another 100 After Effects moves on similar TIF scans. Music and narration are .wav files.

Show will be SD 4:3 and delivered on digiBeta.

A few questions:

1. Any major problems converting an FCP 3.0.2 sequence to FCP6? (A test to FCP5 a while back seemed to work fine.)

2. Codec choice for video recapture? (uncompressed SD 8-bit, uncompressed SD 10-bit, ProRes422)

3. Codec for rendering After Effects moves?

4. Once I


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JeremyG
Re: best codec for onlining SD doc with Kona LHe?
on Jun 14, 2007 at 3:48:18 pm

If it were me, I'd go 10 bit uncompressed. I have not installed FCS2 yet, so I have no idea about ProRes, but I'd look into that as well.

Specifics:

1) Shouldn't be too much of a problem, but I don't really know. A lot has changed internally between FCP3 & 6 so there might be some issues. IF you converted to FCP5, then going to 6 shouldn't be too bad, but plan on fixing some unforeseen issues.

2) See answer above. 10 bit UC or ProRes (but I don't know enough about ProRes yet)

3) I always render my AE movies out as an Animation. The color shifts are less apparent when doing it that way.

4) Sounds great and happens all the time. The only problem is that if you are planning on going to 10-bit UC you will need to capture to a drive that's faster than fw400 or even fw800. What do you have for your scratch drives now?

Jeremy


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jbwjr22
Re: best codec for onlining SD doc with Kona LHe?
on Jun 14, 2007 at 5:18:20 pm

[JeremyG] "The only problem is that if you are planning on going to 10-bit UC you will need to capture to a drive that's faster than fw400 or even fw800. What do you have for your scratch drives now?"

ProMax tells me that the following three drives striped together should be more than adequate for the 28 Mbps needed for 10-bit uncompressed SD:

3 500GB SATA-II 7200rpm 16MB cache Video Drives (striped for speed, Raid 0, no redundancy)

I take them at their word, even though AJA's site says:

Internal Storage (inside Mac) For DV only; uncompressed SD requires external RAID.

Any firsthand experiences with this?

Thanks again.

J



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JeremyG
Re: best codec for onlining SD doc with Kona LHe?
on Jun 14, 2007 at 5:21:48 pm

A 3 drive SATA raid striped together will easily handle UC 10bit SD. Then when you are finished, transferring to a FW drive for the online and have them transfer that to their system will work just fine.


Jeremy




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David Battistella
Re: best codec for onlining SD doc with Kona LHe?
on Jun 14, 2007 at 3:53:14 pm

1. Any major problems converting an FCP 3.0.2 sequence to FCP6? (A test to FCP5 a while back seemed to work fine.)

This should open fine, but make sure you have backups in place.


2. Codec choice for video recapture? (uncompressed SD 8-bit, uncompressed SD 10-bit, ProRes422)

Uncompressed 10- bit will look great, provided you have the drive speed, capacity, etc. Theere have been issues with 10-bit codec and AE renders so you might want to test first. 8 bit UC is more than adequate and will stand up to CC renders.

3. Codec for rendering After Effects moves?

Render them to 10 bit uncompressed, 8- bit uncompressed or Annimation (I tend to do annimation and render in teh timeline, it's a bad habit , I guess)

4. Once I


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jbwjr22
Re: best codec for onlining SD doc with Kona LHe?
on Jun 14, 2007 at 5:26:37 pm

[David Battistella] "2. Codec choice for video recapture? (uncompressed SD 8-bit, uncompressed SD 10-bit, ProRes422)

Uncompressed 10- bit will look great, provided you have the drive speed, capacity, etc. Theere have been issues with 10-bit codec and AE renders so you might want to test first. 8 bit UC is more than adequate and will stand up to CC renders."


I'll definitely do some testing. A couple of people have suggested doing it in DV, saying that uncompressed SD isn't noticeably better and thus a waste of drive space. I researched this in '01 prior to onlining another, similar show (BetaSP source footage, plus lots of AE and stills) and ended up buying an Aurora IgniterRT (plus Medea VideoRaidRT) for my FCP3 system because my conclusion was that uncompressed SD was noticeably better.

Has anything changed with the DV codec that would make it compete favorably with uncompressed SD for onlining a show like mine? Any current tests (and reports) comparing the two?

Thank you.

J



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David Roth Weiss
Re: best codec for onlining SD doc with Kona LHe?
on Jun 14, 2007 at 6:04:49 pm

[jbwjr22] "A couple of people have suggested doing it in DV, saying that uncompressed SD isn't noticeably better and thus a waste of drive space."

Your video will never be any better than the original, whatever format, so it makes no sense whatsoever to recapture. However, your stills and graphics will be light years better if edited in 8 or 10 bit uncompressed timeline or at least if you render your DV timeline using one of the uncompressed codecs.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Post-production Supervisor
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles


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jbwjr22
Re: best codec for onlining SD doc with Kona LHe?
on Jun 14, 2007 at 6:46:02 pm

[David Roth Weiss] "Your video will never be any better than the original, whatever format, so it makes no sense whatsoever to recapture."


Source video is BetaSP. I captured in DV for the offline (with visible code). I now need to recapture for online, which someone suggested I do in DV. I disagree, and assume you do too?


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David Roth Weiss
Re: best codec for onlining SD doc with Kona LHe?
on Jun 14, 2007 at 6:57:04 pm

[jbwjr22] "I disagree, and assume you do too?"

10-4 on that...

I'd recapture as ProRes 422 -- its really a good codec -- has all the 10-bit benefits at a fraction of the size. I've tinkered with a lot and I'm sold.


David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Post-production Supervisor
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles


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JeremyG
Re: best codec for onlining SD doc with Kona LHe?
on Jun 14, 2007 at 6:25:48 pm

[jbwjr22] "A couple of people have suggested doing it in DV, saying that uncompressed SD isn't noticeably better and thus a waste of drive space."

People love that argument, but I love to dispel it. The people that say that aren't really looking.

[jbwjr22] "Has anything changed with the DV codec that would make it compete favorably with uncompressed SD for onlining a show like mine? Any current tests (and reports) comparing the two?"


Get out of the DV codec as it's only 4:1:1. 10 bit uncompressed is where you need to be, especially for laying of to digibeta. Your BetaSP stuff will look awesome in 10bit, and as David RW has said, your graphics/text will be light years more clear than sticking with DV as will color correction.

Jeremy





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David Battistella
Re: best codec for onlining SD doc with Kona LHe?
on Jun 14, 2007 at 9:51:12 pm



I have to say that a DV recapture is a BAD idea. If the source was DV I would agree, HOWEVER, with the source being beta SP, and the final product going to D-Beta I would ahve to say that the most important thing would be to capture at 10-bit. The graphics and everything else will look much nicer in this full color 4:2:2 codec. WHy would you give up half of your color information for the sake of space?


David



Peace and Love :)
Read my Blog
http://blogs.creativecow.net/DavidBattistella


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Stuart Ferreyra
Re: best codec for onlining SD doc with Kona LHe?
on Jun 15, 2007 at 2:17:35 pm

10bit Uncompressed using component is your best option. Specially, if coming from BetaSP.
DV would be your worst choice period. ProRes??? Hmmm.....

Personally, until really proven or massively agreed, I would not trust ProRes. It is still a compressed format and compressed formats throw data away. There is a lot of room for debate on this one; you must choose which side you want to be in.

With the price of hard drives being cheaper and with great solutions like G-Raid for the budget conscious, why spend money and time raiding drives? A 500GB G-Raid 2 will be enough for 10bit UC work. It is a solid unit, FW 800, portable and costs around $350 on the web.


Stuart Ferreyra
Timecode Multimedia
Owner / Colorist
Santa Monica, CA 90025
http://www.timecodemultimedia.com


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David Battistella
Re: best codec for onlining SD doc with Kona LHe?
on Jun 15, 2007 at 3:03:09 pm



Stuart,

The only other lossless opetion would be the SHeer Codec. (i wrote about it in the last issue of the COW magazine. It carries about the same file size as Pro REZ without the CPU usage/dependancy of Pro REZ.

It's one of those fantastic ideas that has just had a hard time getting off the ground. Probably the best RGB to YUV converter around.

David



Peace and Love :)
Read my Blog
http://blogs.creativecow.net/DavidBattistella


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Marco Solorio
Re: best codec for onlining SD doc with Kona LHe?
on Jun 15, 2007 at 7:20:29 pm

I've gotta agree with everyone here. Recap at uncompressed, preferably 10-bit if you have the speed/space to do so. And yeah, probably stay away from ProRez until it's been proven as a solid performer.

Like David, I still often render out my AE projects with animation Animation code, this way we (A) have a lossless archive of the master and (B) FCP can do the final encoding on the timeline without the actual animation itseld getting a generation hit.

There are two (or really three) options to keep in mind when rendering out of AE...

1. Rendering as Animation out of AE gives you a 4:4:4 lossless master that is the same as the origina AE comp you were working in. Only problem is that it's 8-bit. If that's okay then stick with it.

2. Render as UC 10-bit out of AE **in 16-bit mode** or higher and directly encode to 10-bit UC. This isn't an exact representative of the original master you were working with, so keep that in mind. However, for keeping banding out and the like, it's a great option.

3. A payable option is as David mentioned... the Bitjazz Sheer codec. An awesome diamond in the rough. You could render out to either 8-bit 4:4:4 RGB or 10-bit 4:2:2 Y'CrCb (no 16-bit RGB option yet). There's also the Microcosm codec that saves to 16-bit 4:4:4 RGB with reduced file sizes.

Personally, I prefer to render out of AE in lossless RGB mode. This way if I ever have to re-encode from the master to a different format down the road, I'm re-encoding from an original lossless master as opposed to the "latest whiz bang codec at the time" in a reduced/different color space.

Marco Solorio


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David Battistella
Re: best codec for onlining SD doc with Kona LHe?
on Jun 15, 2007 at 10:39:05 pm



You could even re-capture with the Sheer Codec. You'll see how advantageous this is for capture and archive if you check out the article in this months COW magazine.

I had hoped PRO REZ would be as good as Sheer, but the hardware dependancy of PROREZ has me a bit bummed.

David



Peace and Love :)
Read my Blog
http://blogs.creativecow.net/DavidBattistella


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Stuart Ferreyra
Re: best codec for onlining SD doc with Kona LHe?
on Jun 16, 2007 at 10:41:28 pm

I gotta talk to you about that codec. I'd like more info....

Stuart Ferreyra
Timecode Multimedia
Owner / Colorist
Santa Monica, CA 90025
http://www.timecodemultimedia.com


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David Battistella
Re: best codec for onlining SD doc with Kona LHe?
on Jun 17, 2007 at 2:49:12 pm



Stuart,

E-mail me off list and i'll give you a call tomorrow. You can get my e-mail address by click on my head at the top of the FCP basics Forum.

David



Peace and Love :)
Read my Blog
http://blogs.creativecow.net/DavidBattistella


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