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Kona 1080p output to Hi5 to HDMI (Grrr!)

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Matt Riley
Kona 1080p output to Hi5 to HDMI (Grrr!)
on Jun 8, 2007 at 6:48:44 pm

Okay, since we are being given a bit of a runaround from AJA support about this, I figured I would throw it out to the Cow collective hive mind to see if we are totally off base in our growing frustration with this...

Here's the lowdown:

We have output from our Kona 3 card (two weeks old, thank you!) that we want to view on our Sony Bravia XBR3 display as 1080/24p. Since the Bravia does not have SDI input we found the AJA Hi5 SDI to HDMI converter and ordered it, thinking it would do the trick for us. (Before anyone asks, no, the Bravia does not support 1080p over its component analog input - we tried anyway, though!)

This morning we received the Hi5 unit, plugged the primary SDI out from our Kona card into its input and an HDMI cable into the output and into the HDMI input on the Bravia. The TV displays the Kona default 1080i fine this way, so we know we are hooked up okay. However, when we switch the Kona output to 1080p we get no signal on the display. So, we cracked open the manual that shipped with the Hi5. It says it only supports 1080i input.

However - and this is why we are a bit upset - the manual on the AJA support site for the Hi5 specifically lists 1080p support (http://www.aja.com/pdf/support/AJA_manual_HI5.pdf). The manual that is online is NEWER than the one that shipped with our product (December 2006 vs. May 2007). The newer manual that we found online directly from AJA's support pages is what we used to make our buying decision, so to have it not work correctly is quite concerning to us.

What's even more concerning is the apparent lack of follow through to our support calls and emails with AJA. I've read many times on this forum how awesome AJA tech support is but I have to say I have yet to see it after almost 5 hours of waiting to have a simple question answered. The question being: "Does your product do what it says or not?"

If we were sent an older unit that doesn't have the capabilities listed in the current product manual on the AJA site, that's fine - we'll gladly exchange it for a newer one that does what we were led to believe by very specific documentation. If it doesn't do what it is supposed to, just tell us so we can move on and look for a competing product. It seems to me a phone call or email from AJA's support staff to their engineering staff would clear this up, but that apparently hasn't happened yet as we are getting the runaround (or so it would appear from our position).

Am I being a jerk or do I just expect too much? Your thoughts (technical or otherwise) would be appreciated.

-Matt


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Matt Riley
Re: Kona 1080p output to Hi5 to HDMI (Grrr!)
on Jun 8, 2007 at 8:19:12 pm

I just got off the phone with AJA for the fifth time today. The good news is that they have a workaround they are shipping to me to try (swapping out the Hi5 for the HDP converter). The bad news is that it took the better part of a day and two different support people to arrive at this solution. I suppose, though... It is Friday after all. ;-)

Here's to hoping the HDP does the magic we are looking for so we can enjoy our Kona card a bit more.*

-Matt


*The magic that is required is a frame rate converter, which the HDP is. AJA was able to determine that our Sony Bravia LCD only supports 1080p/60, which the Hi5 is not capable of doing. The HDP, though, is supposed to be able to take 1080p/23.98 output from the Kona card's SDI out and convert it to 1080/60p over a DVI connection. So, we then have to purchase a DVI to HDMI converter cable to connect it to our Sony display (it has no DVI input).

AJA support is sending me the HDP converter unit on a trial basis for 30 days (should be here Monday) to see if it works like we are hoping. Now that's the support I was expecting. Yeah!

In the meantime, the second support person was nice enough to provide a workaround for FInal Cut Pro as a fallback in case any of this doesn't work (or we don't want to spend the extra money to get the HDP instead of the Hi5). He told me to set FCP's video output to 1080i/29.97 which will add 3:2 pulldown in the Kona card to make my 1080p/23.98 sequence play through the Hi5 and to the Sony display. While not ideal, it was nice to be offered another option to get us by.


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gary adcock
Re: Kona 1080p output to Hi5 to HDMI (Grrr!)
on Jun 8, 2007 at 9:03:00 pm

Matt

glad things are working out, and welcome to the wonderful world of using consumer gear in a pro environment. HD in the post environment requires a little more effort as you have found out.

"1080p" consumer displays do not necessarily support 1080 24psf as that is not a broadcast deliverable. I do not believe that any of the bravia series monitors support 24 frame content, but I could be wrong, but finding info of that type is near impossible on sonys web consumer web site.

FYI - that 1080 60p in the HDMI spec are actually created using line doubling technology to make 60i to 60p since the 1080 60p spec requires a Dual Link connection between camera, deck and NLE.

gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows


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Bob Zelin
Re: Kona 1080p output to Hi5 to HDMI (Grrr!)
on Jun 8, 2007 at 10:11:07 pm

I too cannot understand, that if you have a PROFESSIONAL requirement for 1080p, and must monitor in 1080p, why on earth are you using a consumer TV set with HDMI ?

Bob Zelin


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Matt Riley
Re: Kona 1080p output to Hi5 to HDMI (Grrr!)
on Jun 8, 2007 at 10:18:22 pm

[Bob Zelin] "I too cannot understand, that if you have a PROFESSIONAL requirement for 1080p, and must monitor in 1080p, why on earth are you using a consumer TV set with HDMI ?

Bob Zelin"


Just trying to save where we can, like everyone else. Sometimes you get burned a bit. ;-)

We already purchased the 17" Panasonic LCD monitor as our "pro" model for this suite and we wanted something larger for awe factor for a client display. The SDI input on this model has no problems displaying whatever we send to it; of course, that's why it is a third of the size but costs more than the Bravia.

So, Sony's top-end consumer model seemed a logical choice without having to rob a bank. We knew going in that if we wanted a model with SDI it would simplify our connection scheme but it also more than triples the entry level for the display.

If the HDP converter works for our purposes, the combined cost will still be quite a bit cheaper than stepping up to the sony model with SDI input that supports 1080/24p natively. It's an acceptable trade-off for us for a client monitor.

Live and learn, I suppose.

-Matt


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Kona 1080p output to Hi5 to HDMI (Grrr!)
on Jun 9, 2007 at 12:11:17 am

[Matt Riley] "He told me to set FCP's video output to 1080i/29.97 which will add 3:2 pulldown in the Kona card to make my 1080p/23.98 sequence play through the Hi5 and to the Sony display. While not ideal, it was nice to be offered another option to get us by."

Matt,

This is a very common method for displaying progressive video on inexpensive plasmas. Professionals all over Hollywood, including me, use Panasonic plasmas as client monitors, and displaying at 29.97 is how its done. What are your concerns?

David

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Post-production Supervisor
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles


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Bob Zelin
Re: Kona 1080p output to Hi5 to HDMI (Grrr!)
on Jun 9, 2007 at 1:51:16 pm

As many professionals will tell you, INCLUDING AJA AND BLACKMAGIC, the monitor of choice of everyone, except Sony is the Panasonic
TH50PH9UK - a 1366x768 monitor, which looks INCREDIBLE at every resolution.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/446413-REG/Panasonic_TH50PH9UK_TH_50P...

$1499 at B+H Photo. This was the monitor at almost EVERY booth
at NAB2007. If you want to impress clients - use this. (you want accuracy - that's another story).

Bob Zelin


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Matt Riley
Re: Kona 1080p output to Hi5 to HDMI (Grrr!)
on Jun 9, 2007 at 2:32:24 pm

Thanks for the monitor tip. When we upgraded our client monitors just before the end of the year we settled on the Sony Bravia LCDs. Since we have 3 of them, I guess you could say we sort of standardized on that product line, for better or worse. I personally find the image produced by the Bravias to be a bit harsh, much like most other LCD displays. But our clients seem to like them, which is the point, I guess.

Honestly, we didn't give the Panasonic displays a fair look for various reasons, the chief one being the old "Sony no bologne" train of thought. When you are looking for a client display for your edit suite, you often consider the presentation of the picture almost as much as the picture itself. In this area, the Sony Bravias hooked us - they have an impressively slick frame (when ordered in black) with a little glowing white Sony logo at the bottom. Yum. That caught our attention in much the same way a mini skirt does: not necessarily practical, but it sure does look good. :-)

-Matt


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Ron Burgondy
Re: Kona 1080p output to Hi5 to HDMI (Grrr!)
on Jan 29, 2010 at 3:07:26 am

My Panasonic (consumer) monitor is not recognizing a signal from my HDMI cable running out of a KONA LH card.

I've tried re-adjusting the output settings in FCP7... and there are 100s options to complicate the matter. The AJA Control panel is not adjustable, the drop down options keep reverting to 'mac desktop' output option when I click them, it flickers right back.

Has anyone else experienced this? Thanks!


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gary adcock
Re: Kona 1080p output to Hi5 to HDMI (Grrr!)
on Jan 29, 2010 at 5:13:52 am

[Ron Burgondy] "My Panasonic (consumer) monitor is not recognizing a signal from my HDMI cable running out of a KONA LH card.
"


did you by chance read any messages of this 2 year old thread?

this is the first post in this thread in over 2 years.

gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows for the Digitally Inclined
Chicago, IL

http://blogs.creativecow.net/garyadcock


http://library.creativecow.net/articles/adcock_gary/AJAIOHD.php




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Matt Riley
Re: Kona 1080p output to Hi5 to HDMI (Grrr!)
on Jun 9, 2007 at 2:43:55 pm

[David Roth Weiss] "This is a very common method for displaying progressive video on inexpensive plasmas. Professionals all over Hollywood, including me, use Panasonic plasmas as client monitors, and displaying at 29.97 is how its done. What are your concerns?"

My concern is that I don't like adding extra frames to anything unless I have to.

In our situation, we have two displays we are dealing with; one is capable of displaying the frame rate we are natively working in (the Panasonic BT-LH1700W) and one is not (the Sony Bravia). If I have FCP add the pulldown during playback, the Bravia works fine but the Panasonic monitor looks worse. I could enable the 3:2 pulldown removal on the Bravia which would clean things up but I honestly don't know if the Panasonic monitor has the option to remove pulldown (I've never had to look, but I'm planning on doing so Monday). While this back and forth with pulldown might work, I don't yet know how or if it will work when outputting through the Kona card from other applications, such as After Effects or Color. I need to do some testing with these.

If FCP was the only application I was driving the Kona card with, I might be able to get by with adding pulldown in FCP and removing it on the displays. However, I think the HDP converter may still be the way to go because of After Effects and the like.

-Matt


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gary adcock
Re: Kona 1080p output to Hi5 to HDMI (Grrr!)
on Jun 9, 2007 at 3:07:32 pm

[Matt Riley] "n our situation, we have two displays we are dealing with; one is capable of displaying the frame rate we are natively working in (the Panasonic BT-LH1700W) and one is not (the Sony Bravia). If I have FCP add the pulldown during playback, the Bravia works fine but the Panasonic monitor looks worse."

That Kona card has multiple SDI and Comp outputs-- set one to add pulldown and the other to show the straight video.

gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows


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Matt Riley
Re: Kona 1080p output to Hi5 to HDMI (Grrr!)
on Jun 9, 2007 at 3:38:43 pm

[gary adcock] "That Kona card has multiple SDI and Comp outputs-- set one to add pulldown and the other to show the straight video. "

I asked AJA support if this was possible and they told me it wasn't. Clearly I'll have to do some experimenting to see if this will work or not.


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gary adcock
Re: Kona 1080p output to Hi5 to HDMI (Grrr!)
on Jun 9, 2007 at 8:20:51 pm

[Matt Riley] " I asked AJA support if this was possible and they told me it wasn't. Clearly I'll have to do some experimenting to see if this will work or not."


I am on my laptop and cannot check that until sunday but I am pretty sure if you
set the secondary SDI channel to 1080 29.97 and the main channel to 1080 23.98 you can output the content both ways.

I will try it tomorrow when I get back to my office

gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows


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Matt Riley
Re: Kona 1080p output to Hi5 to HDMI (Grrr!)
on Jun 11, 2007 at 1:29:53 pm

[gary adcock] "I am on my laptop and cannot check that until sunday but I am pretty sure if you
set the secondary SDI channel to 1080 29.97 and the main channel to 1080 23.98 you can output the content both ways.

I will try it tomorrow when I get back to my office"


No go for me. The Kona control panel won't allow for a configuration like this, at least not that I can figure out.

The HDP converter is due for arrival today at some time via Fed Ex, so after I get that installed I'll post back and let everyone know how it went. Having this device in the pipeline should make things easier (output 1080/23.98 and convert the signal for only the display that requires the different frame rate).

-Matt


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gary adcock
Re: Kona 1080p output to Hi5 to HDMI (Grrr!)
on Jun 11, 2007 at 9:04:21 pm



you are correct I cannot do 1080 23.98 and 29.97 at the same time.

HOWEVER....
I do send 720p59.94 to my plasma - and it is the native res of that display is it not?

using the conversion tools on my Kona 3 makes this simple.






gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows


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Matt Riley
Re: Kona 1080p output to Hi5 to HDMI (Grrr!)
on Jun 12, 2007 at 3:00:51 pm

The Bravia we are driving is 1080 native, so we want to stay in the 1080 world for that one for sure.

The Panasonic BT-LH1700W monitor is 720 native but I find it handles 1080 rather well. And, it has no problems displaying the 23.98 frame rate, so I'd rather send it the 1080/23.98 from the Kona as well, as opposed to a frame duplicated 720/60.

As somewhat of a wrap-up to all of this, we did receive the AJA HDP converter unit yesterday and installed it. We are liking the results, so the box seems to be doing the right kind of magic for us. Woohoo!

The other workarounds proved to not be viable solutions for us. I had thought about having the displays remove the pull-down from a 1080/29.97 signal from the Kona card, but the Sony monitor did not offer that option after getting out of 480i resolution, so no dice there.

Anyway, the short of it is that after some brief testing yesterday with the HDP adapter we are rather happy. We will be using this setup for a finishing session next week (maiden voyage for the system) so hopefully everything holds up well for that.

-Matt


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gary adcock
Re: Kona 1080p output to Hi5 to HDMI (Grrr!)
on Jun 12, 2007 at 4:33:45 pm

[Matt Riley] " The Bravia we are driving is 1080 native, so we want to stay in the 1080 world for that one for sure."



I doubt whether you or your clients will see the difference in 720 vs 1080 playout of the same content on a plasma display. the 17" Panny will always look better.

gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows


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Michael Wolf
Re: Kona 1080p output to Hi5 to HDMI (Grrr!)
on Mar 17, 2008 at 11:47:58 pm

Matt-

I have a Avid Adrenaline HD, a JVC DT-V24L1D HD Color Grading monitor and a big 46" 1080p Samsung consumer LCD for clients in the cheap seats. I have the same issue.

The JVC takes all signals thrown at it via SDI. The Hi5 converting SDI to HDMI sending to the Samsung worked for all signals except 23.98psf. I was told by AJA that it is not in the HDMI spec, as the Samsung will display 1080p24 over HDMI from the BluRay just fine.

So I got the HDP instead. Now the Samsung is displaying "Unsupported format" for all signals coming through the HDP. SD and HD. I am using a DVI->HDMI adapter and my installed HDMI cable. Are you using an adapter or a DVI->HDMI cable?

Mike
Wild Pictures
Venice, CA



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gary adcock
Re: Kona 1080p output to Hi5 to HDMI (Grrr!)
on Mar 18, 2008 at 12:49:17 pm

[Michael Wolf] " as the Samsung will display 1080p24 over HDMI from the BluRay just fine."


At this point in time I have NOT seen a 24p Blu Ray disc. The international delivery spec for Blu Ray is 60i - So that Blu ray disc you think is 24 is sending out 60i ( that is line doubled to 60p by the HDMI 1.2 spec)




gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows
Inside look at the IoHD




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David Roth Weiss
Re: Kona 1080p output to Hi5 to HDMI (Grrr!)
on Jun 9, 2007 at 4:43:21 pm

[Matt Riley] "In our situation, we have two displays we are dealing with; one is capable of displaying the frame rate we are natively working in (the Panasonic BT-LH1700W) and one is not (the Sony Bravia). If I have FCP add the pulldown during playback, the Bravia works fine but the Panasonic monitor looks worse."

Yeh, that makes it a bit tougher. Serving two masters can be a challenge. If Gary's solution can work it would be ideal for you. I have a Kona LH and after a brief test just now I'm pretty sure it won't work on that, but Kona 3 has cross-convert capabilities, so its possible...

David

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Post-production Supervisor
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles


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