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4K stuff at NAB

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Bob Zelin
4K stuff at NAB
on Mar 18, 2007 at 6:15:37 pm

4K will be the rage at NAB 2007. How many people will actually use 4K here ?
Will people shoot in 4K, and downconvert - will the be the way that "pros" work ? Will the Varicam and Cinealta become "crap" ? Will AJA's big push be the new 4K card ? Will anyone care ? Who will be the first to ask "can I get a trade in for my original Kona SD card, for the new AJA Kona 4K" - or "how can I get my Kona SD card to do 4K?". And where is the RED forum on Creative Cow ?

Bob Zelin


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JeremyG
Re: 4K stuff at NAB
on Mar 18, 2007 at 8:59:18 pm

With the affordability of RED, we would sure think about it. There are times when we do these humongous corporate events and we might as well be showing movies at the size of the screens and projectors they have available for rent these days. I am sure you are familiar with them and the types of gigs LMG loads in. In shows with these 80 foot or 90 foot screens, 4K could be beneficial, as long as the equipment, post workflow and data management proved to be worthy and doable without adding much in terms of gear and man power to what we already have, understanding that some investments would needed to be made. We will be watching and staying tuned closely to what's going on. We have not bought a 'big body' HD camera as we are waiting to see what's going to happen in the coming year so we continue to rent. If we can get away with 4k in a relatively proven workflow (as proven as DVCPRO HD) then we'd think about it. Also, it might prove that RED can shoot in HD as well, so if that works, we might just stick with 720 and 1080p. What do you think? DO you think you will be installing 4K suites?


Jeremy


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lasvideo
Re: 4K stuff at NAB
on Mar 18, 2007 at 9:31:07 pm

As a previously all Avid facility anticapting a transition to all FCP in the future, the way we look at it....if the system is robust enoudh to handle 4k, it should be able to handle just about anything the clients throw at us.


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Bob Zelin
Re: 4K stuff at NAB
on Mar 18, 2007 at 10:35:09 pm

Jeremy writes -

I am sure you are familiar with them and the types of gigs LMG loads in.

REPLY - yes, LMG has the largest hi def "mobile" setup in Orlando, and unfortunately, I had nothing to do with it. They stopped using me after they abandoned their AVID systems.


Jeremy writes -
DO you think you will be installing 4K suites?

REPLY -
I have NEVER seen a SRW-5500 VTR other than as a rental VTR in Orlando. I have never seen a Panasonic D5 in Orlando. I have never seen anyone do 2K in Orlando. So will I see 4K ? Maybe - but only because the camera is $17,500 - so with the lens, it will still be cheaper than a Varicam (and a CineAlta). No matter what is shown at NAB in 2007, I anticipate the "big" product for Orlando this year will be (don't laugh) the Sony HVR-1500 pro HDV VTR. I always look with jealousy at what is going on in LA, while we are in the corporate convention/infomercial/cable show world here. If Disney Burbank demands 4K footage from Orlando, only then (in my opinion) will we see 4K production here - but I could be wrong !

Bob Zelin



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gary adcock
Re: 4K stuff at NAB
on Mar 19, 2007 at 3:12:01 pm

[Bob Zelin] "Who will be the first to ask "can I get a trade in for my original Kona SD card"

I have an original hand soldered one!!!
does that count for anything???

the greatest needs for the 4K workflow is not a card, Viewing and storage. 4K is about 54. MB per frame... (MEGA BYTEs encase anyone is not paying attention.) and how many displays can take a 4550 x 2566 image size.


I am waiting for the I shot 4k can I offline in HDV???




gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows


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walter biscardi
Re: 4K stuff at NAB
on Mar 19, 2007 at 3:18:18 pm

[gary adcock] "I am waiting for the I shot 4k can I offline in HDV???"

I'm waiting for the "Can't AJA make an Io 4K that works on my laptop? Surely it can't be that hard?"

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
http://www.biscardicreative.com
HD Editorial & Animation for Food Network's "Good Eats"
HD Editorial for "Assignment Earth"

"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" - Adam Savage, Mythbusters


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Rich Rubasch
Re: 4K stuff at NAB
on Mar 19, 2007 at 4:14:37 pm

There is no doubt that the 4K market will be driven by the projection market where the image will be seen on a big screen. Huge with indie filmmakers who want the best master format. If you can get these files into post imagine how you could manipulate them! Imagine flying around a 4K frame in a DVCProHD sequence. It is the same thing with HD in an SD environment. Creatively there is more latitude.

There is already a huge fan base for the Red camera. Mostly because it is the wow factor....sort of like the "how many megapixels is your digital camera," even though 4 or so is probably enough for a decent print.

So for big, honkin wide shows that are projected and have the budget, or films that will be digitally projected, that's where the market will be driven from. I can see Disney getting all jazzed about it for some of their screen presentations.

Is there a compressed codec that can handle the large frame size, or does the workflow require uncompressed througout?

Rich Rubasch
Tilt Media


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JeremyG
Re: 4K stuff at NAB
on Mar 19, 2007 at 4:25:17 pm

[Rich Rubasch] "Is there a compressed codec that can handle the large frame size, or does the workflow require uncompressed througout?"

See that's where it gets interesting. All the conjecture that I have read on red is that there will be a compressed 4K option which has been quoted to be around 30 MB second @ 24fps (or the same as 10bit uncompressed SD).

As I said, if the workflow proves to be worthy, we'd look at it, especially if the camera can shoot 720/1080 as well.


Jeremy



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walter biscardi
Re: 4K stuff at NAB
on Mar 19, 2007 at 4:33:44 pm

[Rich Rubasch] "Is there a compressed codec that can handle the large frame size, or does the workflow require uncompressed througout?"

Considering how AJA already does a lot of conversions with their current crop of products, I'll be interested to see what they have to say about all of this. We can already take uncompressed HDCAM material and drop it all the way down to DV in realtime for offline editing with the Konas.

Should be a fun NAB!

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
http://www.biscardicreative.com
HD Editorial & Animation for Food Network's "Good Eats"
HD Editorial for "Assignment Earth"

"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" - Adam Savage, Mythbusters


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CharlieX
Re: 4K stuff at NAB
on Mar 19, 2007 at 6:59:13 pm

4k is such a specialty resolution - I doubt 1 person in 1000 FCP users would even begin to have a client that needs it. That's the realm of ultra budget feature films and Imax.

But it would look pretty freaking amazing. Imagine a 4k DLP in your screening room....



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walter biscardi
Re: 4K stuff at NAB
on Mar 19, 2007 at 8:02:45 pm

[CharlieX] "4k is such a specialty resolution - I doubt 1 person in 1000 FCP users would even begin to have a client that needs it. That's the realm of ultra budget feature films and Imax."

That's pretty much what I'm thinking too. We're doing broadcast HD and nobody we work with is even shooting uncompressed, it's all DVCPro HD and HDV so I don't imagine any of our clients will require a 2K in the near future let alone 4k.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
http://www.biscardicreative.com
HD Editorial & Animation for Food Network's "Good Eats"
HD Editorial for "Assignment Earth"

"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" - Adam Savage, Mythbusters


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Jeff Bernstein
Re: 4K stuff at NAB
on Mar 22, 2007 at 6:07:56 pm

I think everyone has to keep everything in perspective. Disney's current standard for digital projection is 1920x1080 HD. I don't recall anyone complaining about the last Pixar release because it was too soft or they could see the pixels in the movie theater. Heck, look at the last 3 Stars Wars. Again, all 1920x1080 HD.

The fact is that 1920x1080 is damn good, especially when you compare it to a typical print that gets to the movie theater. I think someone determined the equivilant print after all the noise, dust, and other stuff gets about 700 lines of resolution.

If you look at 2K, well, I think it is a total waste of time and money. It is a 4:3 format that matches the true aperture of 35mm film. Once you crop it to a wide aspect ratio, you are usually at less than 1920x1080. Thus, one of the few benefits of using 2K would be using a log color space, which you can do with HDCAM SR.

Personally, I think "2K" is a term people latch on to and think "Wow. That must be better than HD"

Am I missing something?

4K is a different story, however. There are technical advantages in its quality. As others have mentioned, there are big technical hurdles in storage and display. For the record, you would want the Sony 4K SXRD projector. It is killer.



Jeff Bernstein

Digital Desktop Consulting
Apple Pro Video VAR
XSAN Certified

323-653-7611


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CharlieX
Re: 4K stuff at NAB
on Mar 22, 2007 at 11:18:53 pm

Point in case: we just did a 35mm filmout from 1080. They ran a proofing copy of the print side-by-side with our HD master projected on a Barco 2K DLP.

The DLP put the smackdown on the print. With all the noise from IP printing, gate chatter, film weave, and added grain.... just looked kinda, well, sloppy. The great advantage of digital projection is that ever single pixel lands exactly where it should - thus increasing the temporal resolution by a massive factor. I remember seeing much more detais in Star Wars Ep. X in DLP vs. 35.


But typically 2K won't be cropped - it'll be some form of anamorphic. So you'll get those 2000 lines of horizontals resolution. So I still says it's a great standard.



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walter biscardi
Re: 4K stuff at NAB
on Mar 22, 2007 at 11:57:31 pm

[CharlieX] "I remember seeing much more detais in Star Wars Ep. X in DLP vs. 35."

We saw Pirates of the Caribbean 2 via DLP projection and have to say we were disappointed. It was way too grainy as I'm pretty sure that movie originated on film. The DLP projection was so clean and crisp, it made all the grain in the film much more noticeable.

Now for digital original material, DLP rules. We showed our short film, shot on the Varicam, via Panasonic DLP project straight off our old 1200A and it was flat out amazing.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
http://www.biscardicreative.com
HD Editorial & Animation for Food Network's "Good Eats"
HD Editorial for "Assignment Earth"

"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" - Adam Savage, Mythbusters


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R.Howard
Re: 4K stuff at NAB
on Mar 23, 2007 at 7:50:06 am

Charlie,

We just supplied a RaveHD unit to Barco for their yearly customer event. The 1080 looked amazing on several of the Barco DLPs. The footage was uncompressed frames from VFX studio X, several projects.

Trying to figure out how I can get one of these in my home theater :)

Cheers,
Ramona

Ramona Howard
SpectSoft, LLC
593 Hi-Tech Parkway Suite B
Oakdale, CA 95361
Phone: 209.847.7812 extension 104
Fax: 209.847.7859
http://www.spectsoft.com

RaveHD - Changing the way you think about HD


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