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Chris Pettit
More EDU sector software rental joy
on Oct 25, 2014 at 2:43:42 am

http://m.collegiatetimes.com/news/article_ac92dd80-53f6-11e4-af0c-001a4bcf6...

If you have time, read and research for yourself how Adobe is "handling" students, but some choice selections from recent article:

"All students must buy the software regardless of grade level, meaning students that already own the Creative Suite software will still have to purchase the Creative Cloud software.

“I don’t want to buy something that I already have,” said fourth-year architecture student Megan Amato. “I am capable of functioning in studio without a new version of Adobe.”


"The School of Architecture and Design has not been unresponsive to student’s complaints, but they said that this situation is out of their control.: “Adobe has been has been very inflexible in their position, and they have essentially mandated an ‘all in’ agreement for the Creative Cloud,” wrote associate professor Bill Galloway in an email sent to all architecture students."

Virginia Tech is not the only school that has made a Creative Cloud deal with Adobe.

“I feel like I’m being taken advantage of,” said Matt Johnson, a second year student of the University of Virginia's School of Architecture. “Adobe is forcing me to pay the maximum price for a wide array of features that I don’t need.” The Virginia Tech Office of Technology Acquisitions did not respond to requests for comment.


And in another example of why it can get so hard for students to know who's ACTUALLY screwing them:

"In an email from Adobe representative Mirka Janus, she said “It sounds like these questions might be better answered by someone within your institution.”

And in an example of the kind of naivete that I personally exhibited for 1.5 years before I got the message (from Adobe) that I can go %$#@# myself:

“I would imagine that, if the Adobe representatives are reasonable people, they would perhaps realize that their inflexibility is hurting their corporate image, and they might be willing to compromise,” wrote Galloway in the same email."

Yeah, good luck with that professor....


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Walter Soyka
Re: More EDU sector software rental joy
on Oct 25, 2014 at 5:17:47 am

Chris, I read the article, but I don't follow.

Isn't it the school that's requiring the students to subscribe?

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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David Mathis
Re: More EDU sector software rental joy
on Oct 25, 2014 at 3:13:03 pm
Last Edited By David Mathis on Oct 25, 2014 at 3:42:01 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Chris, I read the article, but I don't follow.

Isn't it the school that's requiring the students to subscribe?"


I was wondering the same thing, a bit confused.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: More EDU sector software rental joy
on Oct 25, 2014 at 3:37:07 pm
Last Edited By Andrew Kimery on Oct 25, 2014 at 3:43:25 pm

I'm a little confused by the article too.


For many years, the School of Architecture and Design (A+D) and the School of Visual Arts (SOVA) have required students to purchase software bundles with Adobe Creative Suite.


Well that seems pretty straight forward.

Previously, consumers would purchase a version of Adobe software for a one-time price, ranging from $700 for Photoshop, $350 for Dreamweaver and $2,600 for the entire set of Adobe Creative products. Purchasers would then own the software and could use it in its full capacity for as long as they wished.

Oh, is this statement just for reference or does it mean that students in the past didn't have to buy a CS bundle (as stated before) but could but could also buy stand alone apps?


Now, Adobe customers must choose from a variety of annual or monthly plans in order to access Adobe creative products.
.
.
.
An agreement between Adobe and the university ensures that students in A+D and SOVA buy the software for $119 a year.


So students only pay $119/yr for CC instead of paying $2600 for the Master Collection?


If a student was already forced to buy CS in a previous year I agree that they shouldn't be forced to sign up and pay for CC on top of that, but Adobe doesn't do perpetual licenses anymore so for incoming students I don't know what the Professor expects Adobe to do differently. Though maybe that's a question for the school administrators since they signed the deal with Adobe? Also, if they really only have to pay $119/yr for CC that's a steal compared to buying a CS bundle.

Is this forced buying of software a new thing in general? When I was in college (late 90's) we weren't forced to buy software. We could get EDU discounts for select software that we were only supposed to use while being a student, but I just used the school's computers for my video editing, PS and AE needs.


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Bill Davis
Re: More EDU sector software rental joy
on Oct 25, 2014 at 7:10:07 pm

It's also worth noting that in the old system, for students getting certain types of financial aid - books and classroom materials could be paid for with those funds. Even if via student loans, at least that spread the cost of expensive software ownership over time.

Now, if I'm reading this correctly, the day they graduate, students have to become monthly CC subscribers if they wish to continue to use the tools their education has prepared them for.

And gone too is the situation where well off Aunt Katy or Uncle Bud could buy the student their new toolset as a way to help them get a leg up starting in their new career. I doubt many relatives will be willing to lock in a credit card for the entire rest of a kids career under the new system.

Just pointing out the obvious here.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: More EDU sector software rental joy
on Oct 25, 2014 at 7:35:54 pm

[Bill Davis] "Now, if I'm reading this correctly, the day they graduate, students have to become monthly CC subscribers if they wish to continue to use the tools their education has prepared them for. "

Which makes sense since Adobe no longer offers perpetual licenses. Even then though typically EDU discounted software is only supposed to be used in an EDU setting so even if a student bought a perpetual license EDU version of, say Avid, for $299 they are still supposed to fork out $1200 for a full retail copy once they graduate.

And just to parse words, the now ex-students can choose to become monthly or annual subscribers (annual being the cheaper of the two options). ;)

[Bill Davis] "And gone too is the situation where well off Aunt Katy or Uncle Bud could buy the student their new toolset as a way to help them get a leg up starting in their new career. I doubt many relatives will be willing to lock in a credit card for the entire rest of a kids career under the new system."

Adobe doesn't advertise it much, but you can buy 'gift cards' for Adobe CC memberships at places like Best Buy. Also, you can switch the payment method attached to the Adobe CC account. I've had to do it a couple of times thanks to the retailer POS hacks.


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Tim Wilson
Re: More EDU sector software rental joy
on Oct 25, 2014 at 7:55:43 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "even if a student bought a perpetual license EDU version of, say Avid, for $299 they are still supposed to fork out $1200 for a full retail copy once they graduate."

Nope. The edu license becomes a commercial license on graduation. I was working at Avid when this became the policy in 2004.

Of course it's conceivable to me that this changed later. It's even more conceivable to me that some teachers missed this and gave students the wrong guidance on this...but at the time, this was part of a longer game that would allow every student (and teacher -- same $299 for them) to own "the Avid" for a "Sure, why not?" price point, compared to the $799 student price for FCP, which you were most definitely WERE expected to upgrade.

fwiw...


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Oliver Peters
Re: More EDU sector software rental joy
on Oct 26, 2014 at 12:02:22 am

I'm not sure I get what the problem is. The school requires that students have the current version of the software. Before, they had to buy it outright. Now they get a subscription as a discount. I agree that it's painful if you just shelled out for the Master Collection, but that's a transitional problem. It seems that the inflexibility is on the part of the school for requiring use of the most current versions of the applications.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Chris Pettit
Re: More EDU sector software rental joy
on Oct 26, 2014 at 1:47:34 am

[Andrew Kimery] "[Bill Davis] "Now, if I'm reading this correctly, the day they graduate, students have to become monthly CC subscribers if they wish to continue to use the tools their education has prepared them for. "

Which makes sense since Adobe no longer offers perpetual licenses"


But they do. They offer CS6.


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Chris Pettit
Re: More EDU sector software rental joy
on Oct 26, 2014 at 1:31:50 am

[Walter Soyka] "Isn't it the school that's requiring the students to subscribe?"

Adobe is of course actively seeking, in conjunction with universities and colleges to force as many students as possible, as quickly as possible into subscriptions whether they like it or not, and clearly many students don't like it at all, most specifically those students that have already purchased CS6, in this case only a year previous.

Again, from the perspective of professor Galloway:

“Adobe has been has been very inflexible in their position, and they have essentially mandated an ‘all in’ agreement for the Creative Cloud,”

Spend some time trying to interpret all the confusion in the case of the AAU controversy. Adobe says its the college. The college says its Adobe. All of that leaving powerless students in the middle. Meanwhile, the college is running expensive joint ad campaigns on Adobes website, and neither institution is providing much clarity at all for the students who suddenly had their licenses canceled. Where I come from that's called bait and switch.

If Adobe wanted clarity in regards to policy they would provide it. Reminds me of Adobe leaving all of us hanging for months waiting for an "adjustment" or "tweaking" of policy only to eventually say nothing at all. I would say that when it comes to communicating to it's own customers, Adobe is one of the worst companies in the world. And BTW, even some of their biggest advocates accuse them of that.

Here's another thought: does anyone know the policy for EDU sector regarding the purchase of CS6 instead of CC if they chose it? Is it an option? Adobe IS still selling CS6. By way of example: now whether I like it or not, my OEM cant offer CS6 on my new machines. No support, no volume licensing, no installation and per-configuration, only CC, take it or leave it. So does Adobe allow CS6 to be licensed in the traditional manner through educational institutions? If a college chose to require CS6 as the price of admission, would Adobe allow it? My guess is no, but looking forward to someone here proving me wrong...


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Andrew Kimery
Re: More EDU sector software rental joy
on Oct 26, 2014 at 4:16:21 pm

[Tim Wilson] "Nope. The edu license becomes a commercial license on graduation. I was working at Avid when this became the policy in 2004."

Thanks Tim. I knew about about the 4 years of free upgrades for EDU versions but I didn't know that an EDU version could be upgraded to a full retail version. Was MC software only in 2004? If not, how did the EDU version work if Avid hardware was required too?

[Chris Pettit] "But they do. They offer CS6.
"


Of course you are right, Chris. I should have said for current software Adobe is no longer offering perpetual licenses.

[Chris Pettit] "Here's another thought: does anyone know the policy for EDU sector regarding the purchase of CS6 instead of CC if they chose it? Is it an option? "


This is what the Adobe CS6 FAQ says:
http://www.adobe.com/products/cs6/faq.html#upgrade-eligibility

Does Adobe offer education discounts?
Yes. Qualifying full- or part-time students, faculty, and staff of accredited educational institutions can purchase Adobe products at a reduced price.

Does Adobe offer volume licensing for CS6?
Effective June 1, we are making Creative Cloud the exclusive source for all creative licensing. This means that CS6 will no longer be available under our Cumulative and Transactional licensing programs (CLP and TLP). All other Adobe products available under volume licensing, such as Adobe Acrobat and Adobe Presenter, will be unaffected by this change. CS6 will continue to be available for purchase via Electronic Software Download (ESD) on adobe.com in regions where it is currently available today.


[Chris Pettit] "If a college chose to require CS6 as the price of admission, would Adobe allow it? My guess is no, but looking forward to someone here proving me wrong..."

Why do colleges choose to force students to buy certain software for certain classes to begin with? I know you quoted a Prof that's irritated with Adobe but why not be irritated with the college administration that made the deal with Adobe? The college/university controls the classes and curriculum, not a Adobe.


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Oliver Peters
Re: More EDU sector software rental joy
on Oct 26, 2014 at 5:33:06 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "Why do colleges choose to force students to buy certain software for certain classes to begin with? "

What's the difference between requiring software and requiring textbooks?

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Andrew Kimery
Re: More EDU sector software rental joy
on Oct 26, 2014 at 7:33:28 pm

[Oliver Peters] "What's the difference between requiring software and requiring textbooks?"

Price, resale value (books aren't updated nearly as often as software), resale opportunity (books can be sold back at the end of class where as it sounds like these architecture majors need Adobe software for the duration of their collegiate career) and books are stand alone purchases where as software also requires a properly spec'd computer to run on.

When I was in college, besides the general purpose computer labs, we had speciality computer labs that had computers with Avid, FCP, ProTools, AE, Photoshop, Illustrator, etc.,. While you might have been required to use a certain piece of software you were not required to buy said piece of software in order to take the class. Now that I think about it I don't think I took any classes where buying the book was a prerequisite for taking the class either. Yes, their were books used in the classes but you and a friend could split the cost of a single book, you could borrow the book, etc.,.


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JP Pelc
Re: More EDU sector software rental joy
on Nov 6, 2014 at 8:28:31 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "[Oliver Peters] "What's the difference between requiring software and requiring textbooks?"

Price, resale value (books aren't updated nearly as often as software)"


Not sure when you were in college, but when I was there (< 3 years ago) the textbooks were updated every year. They would add a paragraph, call it a new version, charge $250, and the professor would tell you that you MUST have the most recent version. It is one of the most blatant scams in operation today. Some textbooks came with a CD-ROM software that could only be registered once, and registering it was a requirement for the class. So once you learned that the necessity of the most recent version is a blatant lie (the extra paragraph would never be read) you still had to buy the most recent version.



[Andrew Kimery] "When I was in college, besides the general purpose computer labs, we had speciality computer labs that had computers with Avid, FCP, ProTools, AE, Photoshop, Illustrator, etc.,. While you might have been required to use a certain piece of software you were not required to buy said piece of software in order to take the class."


Same. All the software required for classes were available 24/7 in computer labs, on machines with a fair amount of power. I would have been rather angry if I was required to purchase software


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Tim Wilson
Re: More EDU sector software rental joy
on Oct 26, 2014 at 5:42:46 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "Was MC software only in 2004? If not, how did the EDU version work if Avid hardware was required too?"

The original deal was for the late, unlamented Avid Xpress Pro, which offered a discount on hardware as well. I forget what the discount was, but it wasn't required unless you wanted to work with analog sources or use an external monitor with DV, so most people didn't bother.

The last thing I did at Avid was roll out MC Soft, starting at NAB 2006. We banged the drum HARD on that edu price, and the free conversion to a commercial license as "Avid's graduation present to you" was part of every presentation I gave until I left Avid for the COW that fall.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: More EDU sector software rental joy
on Oct 26, 2014 at 7:40:40 pm

[Tim Wilson] "The original deal was for the late, unlamented Avid Xpress Pro, which offered a discount on hardware as well. I forget what the discount was, but it wasn't required unless you wanted to work with analog sources or use an external monitor with DV, so most people didn't bother."

Tim, you do remember Avid Media Composer Express? A lite version of Avid MC when Media Composer and Film Composer were still separate products. That's what I used in college but few people seem to have heard of it so I'm looking for confirmation that I'm not crazy.


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Oliver Peters
Re: More EDU sector software rental joy
on Oct 26, 2014 at 8:28:53 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "Tim, you do remember Avid Media Composer Express? A lite version of Avid MC when Media Composer and Film Composer were still separate products. That's what I used in college but few people seem to have heard of it so I'm looking for confirmation that I'm not crazy."

That might be just before Tim's official time at Avid. You are thinking of Avid Xpress, which ran with Meridien hardware. This was before Avid DV and Xpress Pro were released as software-only products. This would have been mid-to-late 90s.

Xpress Meridien was a subset of the Media Composer line and was limited to PAL and NTSC rates with no 23.976/24 fps options. You could, however, generate negative cutting MatchBack lists if you were cutting a film project at 29.97. Otherwise, Xpress let you run uncompressed with SDI i/o, so for many facilities there was very little compromise in using Xpress and not Media Composer.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Tim Wilson
Re: More EDU sector software rental joy
on Oct 26, 2014 at 9:55:41 pm

Sorry, been away for a bit, so replying to a bunch of posts at once....

[Oliver Peters] "What's the difference between requiring software and requiring textbooks?"

Exactly.

I just looked this up. The average cost of textbooks for a year is $1200, and $200 for a single title is not uncommon. Acknowledging that Andrew is right about some of the specific differences, the principle is identical.

And certainly has a smaller impact on them than making them buy their own computers, which is increasingly common.

Oliver, I'm going to disagree with one sentence in a previous post of yours, though.

[Oliver Peters] "It seems that the inflexibility is on the part of the school for requiring use of the most current versions of the applications."

That's not inflexible. It's reasonable, and it's typical. It's also the only way you can actually function. "That keyboard command doesn't do that on mine." "Mine doesn't have that feature."

It's also expected that a university would teach the latest version. Students expect it, parents expect it, administrators expect it, and FCP 7 notwithstanding, employers looking at the most recent graduates expect them to know the latest stuff.

I mean, it's all well and good to say that "editing is MORE than knowing which buttons to push," but it's not LESS than "knowing which buttons to push" either. If you don't want to learn the latest stuff, pay me that money instead, and I'll be happy to make sure you don't get anywhere near it.


[Oliver Peters] " I agree that it's painful if you just shelled out for the Master Collection, but that's a transitional problem."

Agreed on both, definitely. It's unfortunate that someone who paid $500 for the Creative Suite (edu price) last year now has to pay $119. Truly frustrating... but it's not catastrophic. It's $119.

Philosophy, debate, THE REAL ISSUE, etc. but it's $119.

Not nothing, but you know what? This article is from Virginia Tech, where the 2014-2015 tuition and fees are $19,941 for in-state, $35,972 for out of state. (Details.) They suggest $1000/yr for books. So, 11.9% of the books suggestion for CC.

For reference, I thought I'd also check costs at the Art Institute LA: $32,140 for a year. (Not super pricey for the neighborhood: only the 74th most expensive 4-yr school in the state. Details here.) They suggest $1700 for "books and supplies." That's 7% of the "books and supplies" budget for CC.

Books are of course a small part of the overall budget. Just because I have my calculator out, I thought I'd do CC as a percentage of a single year's tuition and fees:

SIX TENTHS OF ONE PERCENT (0.6%) of the cost for one year of in-state Virginia Tech

POINT THREE SEVEN of one percent (0.37%) at Art Institute LA

POINT THREE THREE percent (0.33%) of one year out-of-state at Virginia Tech

"But it's not just about the money."

Yes, but I'm talking about the money. Even in a world where reality means nothing and debate means everything, less than one percent is still less than one percent.

For grins, I checked my local community college, College of the Desert, one of the cheapest in the state. They estimate $11,938 a year if you're living at home, and they suggest $1746 for books: making CC the lowest percentage of book costs for any of them, and even for dramatically lower expenses overall, CC represents exactly ONE percent of the cost to attend College of the Desert this year.

Thus we arrive at our first whole number: 1%. One year of edu CC is one percent of the cost of a year at a small community college.

Again, sympathetically, I can see why any student or parent would be exasperated by having to drop another $119 this year after $500 last year. But, in the actual context of actual prices, anywhere from 0.33% to a MAX of 1% hardly seems torches-and-pitchforks time, on anything other than philosophical grounds.

Which is fine. Debate away. But especially at an engineering school like Virginia Tech, I'd hope to see the reality of the numbers play a meaningful role in marking the scope of the debate.


[Bill Davis] "And gone too is the situation where well off Aunt Katy or Uncle Bud could buy the student their new toolset as a way to help them get a leg up starting in their new career. I doubt many relatives will be willing to lock in a credit card for the entire rest of a kids career under the new system.

Just pointing out the obvious here."


I think the "obvious" is that you're letting your philosophical objections to the principle of subscriptions trample the reality of what Aunt Katy and Uncle Bud actually do. If they're inclined to buy something, they'll buy it. Whether it's a computer, a camera, a car, or a beautiful fountain pen. They won't waste time shaking their fists because they can't buy you After Effects.

Nor do I think they'd be amused to hear you say, "But what good is a COMPUTER going to do me when I have to pay for software EVERY MONTH???" Not their problem, son. Same thing if they gave you a car. Say thank you and buy the gas yourself.

That's all theoretical. More likely, they'll give young Billy or Timmy a hundred bucks and say, "Don't spend it all on weed and selfies! Hahahaha! You kids with your weed and selfies!"

In any case, nothing about Adobe's business model is going to get in the way of Aunt Bud and Uncle Katy's generosity. It's not going to get in the way of weed and selfies either. The number is just a number, and in this case, in reality, the number is 1% of the year's expenses for a community college student living at home.


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Bill Davis
Re: More EDU sector software rental joy
on Oct 27, 2014 at 7:05:26 am

[Tim Wilson] "I think the "obvious" is that you're letting your philosophical objections to the principle of subscriptions trample the reality of what Aunt Katy and Uncle Bud actually do. If they're inclined to buy something, they'll buy it. Whether it's a computer, a camera, a car, or a beautiful fountain pen. They won't waste time shaking their fists because they can't buy you After Effects.
"


Yep. It's absolutely philosophical.

But it's NOT about who's paying for After Effects. It's about the shift in the US education system writ a whole lot larger.

It's a "public" education system that's lost any pretense of educating the actual public.

$200 for a textbook (even if every chart and graph is reproduced by art level lithography) is still designed NOT as a "fair profit proposition" enabling education to take place, but as yet another cottage wealth transfer system. Like theatre popcorn, textbooks inhabit a cost space that's functionally INSANE. But unlike the movie houses, textbooks are NOT the only way a theater owner can make a profit because all the ticket revenue has to go to the film company. So why the model? And don't talk to me about niche production or low demand - any Barns and Noble has a table full of niche coffee table books that are every bit as production costly, but THEY don't need to charge $200 a unit.

Yeah, it's always been more or less this way, but it hasn't always been THIS bad.

I'm honestly afraid that the US is going to lose a generation here. I'm surrounded by 18-22 year olds. In a really nice economic area. And I'm telling you that a HUGE percentage of them can't find even a part time job. Order a pizza and it's likely to be delivered by a 35-49 year old with a CC degree trying to feed his kids. This is NOT normal. Yeah, part of is is global economic shifts, but another huge part of it IS public policy.

This is the ugly stinking underbelly of privitization. Of allowing public tax money to be used directly to support private, for profit, enterprises.

How have we allowed our PUBLIC universities - built on tax money - to morph into a system where they can't provide an affordable education to an average dual income family with a couple of kids without saddling said family with 30 years of college tuition debt? It's INSANE.

Germany seems to have realized this and has just changed their system to make university education tuition FREE for qualified students regardless of economic situation. Similar stuff in Denmarks art schools. Here in the US, a poor 18 year old girl getting a cosmetology license to cut hair results in a $30,000.00 debt for a 2 year program. PLUS the school likely got that much in "skills training" TAX MONEY to boot. So great. The smartest german poor kids are going to be eating the lunch of our Amercian middle class kids in a generation or two. Not based on native ability, but based on somebody thinking it's OK to WELD education access on EVERY level directly to access to piles of disposable income.

I know that's harsh. But again, I've got a college age son. I'm almost glad he's turning out to be a pretty exceptional jewelry designer - so college access isn't the thing that's going to determine his success - but I am around his peers every single day. And all I see is a lot of their futures being diverted into an education system that increasingly views our teens and college kids, not as a national asset and a resource upon which our future depends, but as just another MARKET.

End of story - full stop.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Jim Wiseman
Re: More EDU sector software rental joy
on Nov 7, 2014 at 8:32:16 pm

Just came through Germany and people I spoke with were astonished at the cost of higher Ed in the US. For many there it is free. And they are expanding it in other countries in Europe. They will eat our lunch. It is already happening in many countries around the world. We have to quit focusing on high income tax cuts and military spending and getting our education act together or we are toast. Especially in high tech.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.1.1, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.5, Premiere Pro CS 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Blackmagic Teranex, Avid MC, 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1 TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD


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Oliver Peters
Re: More EDU sector software rental joy
on Nov 7, 2014 at 9:25:01 pm

[Jim Wiseman] "Just came through Germany and people I spoke with were astonished at the cost of higher Ed in the US."

Bill brought this up before, but I would caution that this is an apples-to-oranges comparison. I have many relatives there, some of whom teach, so I have a bit of first-hand knowledge. The education system is completely different. In some ways it's better and other ways it isn't. This all comes at a much higher tax burden than most Americans would stomach. It's also only sustainable at high national productivity rates. But here are some key ingredients:

1. The German system is stratified between colleges, trade/business schools and formal apprenticeships. Unlike the US, the goal is NOT that everyone should go to college. Quite the opposite. For example, if your goal is to be an accountant, bookkeeper, retail store manager, etc. you go to a business school. Think of it as sort of the equivalent of community college or a high-end vo-tech school.

2. If you want to go into a trade - such as machinist - you go into a formal apprenticeship program. This is a path that leads you through apprentice/journeyman/master levels. If you want to open up your own business as an electrical contractor, for instance, you won't get licensed unless you pass an exam to be at a master level.

3. If you go to college, you enter directly into a "major". There no "gen ed" level, since you must have passed an exam that's sort of like a GRE. To get to that level, you must have gone the equivalent of 13 years to school on a college prep track. Assuming you have passed the exam, your education level, prior to entering the university, is probably equal to a US student who's gone through high school with AP credits, plus the "gen ed" portion of community college. In other words, before you even enter the university, you are starting at the US equivalent of an AA degree.

Note that this is a tiered system, so the path you take is branched pretty early - about in junior high school. If you are on a college level path, then that involves more an intense curriculum in high school than I think the average US student is used to.

I'm not saying either system is better or worse. Merely that to compare - based on getting college paid for - is a very small part of the equation, since it's a completely different system at all levels. And FWIW - I've seen a number of students who have simply milked the system at the college level, going to school as long as they possibly can, since it's not costing them anything.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Jim Wiseman
Re: More EDU sector software rental joy
on Nov 12, 2014 at 4:56:39 am

I can see there are certainly differences, but when people have to burden themselves with the equivalent of committing to a new home mortgage before they even enter the job market, something is seriously wrong. I think our spending and tax polices and priorities are seriously out of whack, especially on defense and the tax rates and capital gains policies that greatly favor the highest income groups. I see no reason why we could not make changes to the financing of higher education that would work in the USA to make college affordable to many more than is possible now. It is an investment that would pay for itself many times over. It doesn't have to be a copy of the German (and other European countries) models.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.1.1, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.5, Premiere Pro CS 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Blackmagic Teranex, Avid MC, 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1 TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD


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JP Pelc
Re: More EDU sector software rental joy
on Nov 6, 2014 at 8:38:40 pm

[Tim Wilson] "More likely, they'll give young Billy or Timmy a hundred bucks and say, "Don't spend it all on weed and selfies! Hahahaha! You kids with your weed and selfies!""

This made me laugh with volume, in my office. Thank you


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Chris Pettit
Re: More EDU sector software rental joy
on Oct 27, 2014 at 12:59:11 am

[Andrew Kimery] "Why do colleges choose to force students to buy certain software for certain classes to begin with?"

For the same reason that a motorcycle engineering school might require that you purchase wrenches to work on motorcycles I suppose. The fact is they do. I am WAY past the college years so I cant say for sure. When I was in college it was all about access to the hardware, not software per se. So the tuition went to support collective investment in expensive 24 track 2" tape machines and mixing boards (Audio), and first generation DAW's and the competition was to get studio time, not work independently like creative students do now.

[Andrew Kimery] "The college/university controls the classes and curriculum, not a Adobe."

Really? Are you saying Adobe is simply not involved in this process? They have nothing to do with whats going on in different colleges and universities? They aren't using every tool at their almost unlimited disposal to change how education involving creative software is facilitated, providing financial incentives and other enticements (joint ad campaigns come to mind) to colleges thereby encouraging subscriptions packages whether its in students best interest or not? Using their enormous market power to force change to how students purchase and use software, not just in the education sector but across the duration of their entire career's?

Adobe's CEO pronouncing that they are "aggressively" moving customers to Creative Cloud clearly applies here, yet again.


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Brian Charles
Re: More EDU sector software rental joy
on Oct 27, 2014 at 2:31:02 am
Last Edited By Brian Charles on Oct 27, 2014 at 2:31:40 am

Not wishing to add any more fuel to the CC or not debate it should be noted that students would have to pay for software one way or the other, its a cost of their education.

Interestingly there is a free, somewhat hobbled "learning edition" of Maya. As well Maxon provides an 18 month free license of C4D to students enrolled in qualifying programs at qualifying institutions. Usually multi-year animation, VFX or similar programs.

To avoid abuse and inappropriate use –  the emphasis is on qualifying – the license requires consent from the the instructor and Maxon.

Very, very generous of them.



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Walter Soyka
Re: More EDU sector software rental joy
on Oct 27, 2014 at 3:07:11 pm

[Chris Pettit] "Really? Are you saying Adobe is simply not involved in this process?"

Are you saying that Adobe shouldn't be free to market their products and services as they see fit? If you want them to sell something differently than they do because you won't buy something differently than you do, why are they the ones being inflexible?

Adobe has an offering on the market. The schools are choosing to require students in their programs to subscribe.


[Chris Pettit] "Adobe's CEO pronouncing that they are "aggressively" moving customers to Creative Cloud clearly applies here, yet again."

That turn of phrase has a very specific meaning in a business context, which I am sure you know. I don't think it's mean to be interpreted as aggression towards customers.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Richard Herd
Re: More EDU sector software rental joy
on Oct 29, 2014 at 4:25:16 pm

[Walter Soyka] "The schools are choosing to require students in their programs to subscribe"

Quick question: If the school has a labs and most do, then why can't students use the labs rather than buy the software. I mean: is there something specific about the CC that disallows sharing the seat? For example, one computer has many users; or is CC each user must have a license? When you go into a lab, like the amazing local one, each student logs on to the network using a unique ID, and there is a corresponding amount of storage on the SAN. I think I'm repeating if I ask: does CC disallow sharing an install with many users? Does each user need their own CC subscription?


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Andrew Kimery
Re: More EDU sector software rental joy
on Oct 29, 2014 at 5:09:05 pm

[Richard Herd] "Quick question: If the school has a labs and most do, then why can't students use the labs rather than buy the software."

I've been asking the same question. The article in the OP said that students were forced for to buy the CS versions in the past (and students that were forced to by CS 6 don't like they idea of having to subscribe to CC because they already owned CS which is a valid argument). The problem sounds like it stems from the terms of the deal the school made with Adobe.

[Richard Herd] "I mean: is there something specific about the CC that disallows sharing the seat?"

I don't know if this is analogous to a computer lab setting, but for a test I created another user account on my Mac, signed in as that new user account and I was still able to launch my Adobe CC 2014 apps.


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Walter Soyka
Re: More EDU sector software rental joy
on Oct 29, 2014 at 6:51:31 pm

[Richard Herd] "If the school has a labs and most do, then why can't students use the labs rather than buy the software. I mean: is there something specific about the CC that disallows sharing the seat?"

Fantastic question. When I was in school, I was not required to purchase my own BVU-950s and RM-440. The edit suites had all that. (I am not quite as old as this equipment or my curmudgeonly demeanor might suggest.)

From Creative Cloud pricing and membership plans [link]:

"Creative Cloud for education offers two options for institutions: named-user licensing for small workgroups and departments and device-based licensing for classrooms and labs."

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Richard Herd
Re: More EDU sector software rental joy
on Oct 30, 2014 at 9:24:45 pm

[Walter Soyka] "device-based licensing for classrooms and labs"

And there it is! Students should only attend schools who have CC as "device-based licensing."


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Andrew Kimery
Re: More EDU sector software rental joy
on Oct 27, 2014 at 6:43:51 pm

[Chris Pettit] "For the same reason that a motorcycle engineering school might require that you purchase wrenches to work on motorcycles I suppose. The fact is they do. I am WAY past the college years so I cant say for sure. When I was in college it was all about access to the hardware, not software per se. So the tuition went to support collective investment in expensive 24 track 2" tape machines and mixing boards (Audio), and first generation DAW's and the competition was to get studio time, not work independently like creative students do now. "

Assuming the school didn't provide any tools (which IMO would be weird) I doubt the school would require you to purchase a brand new set of wrenches that were a specific brand in order to take the class. If I showed up with a perfectly good set of Craftsman tools I borrowed from a friend I really doubt the school would say, "Oh no. You can't use those. You have to buy a brand new set of Snap-on wrenches for $800 in order to take the class."

For the heck of it I called around to a few schools with video/film production majors (including USC and my alma mater back in the Midwest) and asked if they required students to purchase any specific hardware or software in order to take the production classes and they all said no. They said the school provides everything the students need (from cameras and light kits to computer/media labs with NLEs) but if the student's already own some of their own gear they are free to use it. The courses were completely brand agnostic with at least one of them having FCP, Avid MC and Premiere Pro installed on the school computers as well as multiple brands of cameras.

[Chris Pettit] "Really? Are you saying Adobe is simply not involved in this process? They have nothing to do with whats going on in different colleges and universities? "

I'm saying Adobe can only be involved to the extent that the school's administration lets Adobe be involved.


[Tim Wilson] "That's not inflexible. It's reasonable, and it's typical. It's also the only way you can actually function. "That keyboard command doesn't do that on mine." "Mine doesn't have that feature."

It's also expected that a university would teach the latest version. Students expect it, parents expect it, administrators expect it, and FCP 7 notwithstanding, employers looking at the most recent graduates expect them to know the latest stuff. "


I disagree. If you are talking a class to get certified in a specific piece of software then, yes, everyone needs to be on the exact same software. If you are talking a class to learn about the process of film/video production (where you'll write, direct/shoot, and edit a short film) you don't need everyone using the exact same word processing software, camera and NLE. It's like saying if you are taking a photography class that everyone has to go out and buy the exact same make and model of camera.

I know universities like to crow about having the best of everything ever in their commercials but I think everyone knows it's the academic equivalent of padding a resumé. It certainly helps if students get exposure and hands-on time with the gear/similar types of gear that they might be using at some point after graduation but in my experience (both as a student and as someone that's hired/trained young bucks) students aren't going to graduate and immediately step into a job as a TD at the local TV station or an editor on a primetime TV show. They lack both the experience and knowledge base so on the job training is going to be required no matter how many student films they worked on.


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Richard Herd
Re: More EDU sector software rental joy
on Oct 27, 2014 at 4:57:11 pm

Repeating: https://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/378/7289


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