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Chris Pettit
???
on Sep 25, 2014 at 2:06:04 am

Just posted a link here at the COW regarding a Facebook community page (created by university students (AAU in San Fransisco) who are protesting the cancellation of 1000's of CS6 licenses by Adobe through their school.

The post dissapeared, so I'm wondering if this is in someway unacceptable.

I write this new post while staring at the ubiquitous Adobe web ad to my immediate right.


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Chris Pettit
Re: ???
on Sep 25, 2014 at 2:20:32 am

Maybe this link will meet with more acceptance:

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/article/20140922220001-231309579-creative-co...


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David Lawrence
Re: Academy of Art University student's CS6 licenses canceled
on Sep 25, 2014 at 2:26:47 am

I don't know if the Facebook link was deemed out-of-bounds but this is a very real issue that has the attention of the local news. The student is smart, articulate and pissed. If she has documentation to back up her claim that a CS6 perpetual license was included in her tuition, I expect Adobe and AAU will fix this very quickly.

http://www.ktvu.com/videos/news/san-francisco-adobe-suite-problems-plague-a...

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Oliver Peters
Re: Academy of Art University student's CS6 licenses canceled
on Sep 25, 2014 at 2:32:10 am
Last Edited By Oliver Peters on Sep 25, 2014 at 2:41:26 am

I read the LinkedIn post and what is not clear is whether the payment was made to Adobe by the students or to the school as part of fees and tuition. If the latter, the complaint is with the school and not Adobe. Which is it?

Edit: The TV station link says it was covered as part of their tuition. Unless the students had clear indications that they actually owned perpetual licenses that were licensed to them individually, then they might have made some erroneous assumptions. Or the school oversold the context of what they were actually getting. Obviously, it seems that they had academic licenses that were in effect only as long as that agreement between the school and Adobe was in tact.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
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http://www.oliverpeters.com


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David Lawrence
Re: Academy of Art University student's CS6 licenses canceled
on Sep 25, 2014 at 2:39:40 am

[Oliver Peters] "I read the LinkedIn post and what is not clear is whether the payment was made to Adobe by the students or to the school as part of fees and tuition. If the latter, the complaint is with the school and not Adobe. Which is it?"

According to the student behind the complaint, Adobe and AAU are pointing the finger at each other. The school claims they were caught by surprise. Here's an email she posted from a school official:



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Oliver Peters
Re: Academy of Art University student's CS6 licenses canceled
on Sep 25, 2014 at 2:48:26 am

While this seems pretty damning, I can tell you that in my dealing with university IT folks, they are often not that aware of the specifics. Or maybe the school itself had no idea about the terms of their own deal.

Of course there are potentially other logistical issues that we don't know about. For example, if the Adobe ID was serialized to a school .edu e-mail address, which is now inactive after graduation, it might be that the software has lapsed into trial mode by default.

Hard to tell at this point from the anecdotal info.

- Oliver

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Oliver Peters
Re: Academy of Art University student's CS6 licenses canceled
on Sep 25, 2014 at 2:53:42 am

There is another scenario, since CS6 was available on subscription before CC. It could be that these students were on subscription all along, by way of a master deal between the school and Adobe. They may have only thought they had perpetual licenses due to misinformation by the school. Once they graduated, the software reverted to trial for them to then pick up the subscription. I don't know if that's the case, but it certainly seems pretty plausible.

- Oliver

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David Lawrence
Re: Academy of Art University student's CS6 licenses canceled
on Sep 25, 2014 at 3:22:19 am

[Oliver Peters] "Hard to tell at this point from the anecdotal info."

Yes, there are a lot of unknowns here. And I will say this about the school - it's a commercial university known in SF for its real estate acquisitions and cranking out students. It doesn't have the best reputation as an art school and is considered more of a trade school. It's very expensive. That said, a lot of talented students get their start there.

It's entirely possible the school misinformed students about the nature of their software licenses. It all comes down to documentation at this point.

I have to give the student props though. On the Facebook group, she is articulate and very clear about the issues.

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Chris Pettit
Re: Academy of Art University student's CS6 licenses canceled
on Sep 25, 2014 at 2:51:49 am

[Oliver Peters] "I read the LinkedIn post and what is not clear is whether the payment was made to Adobe by the students or to the school as part of fees and tuition. If the latter, the complaint is with the school and not Adobe. Which is it?"

If I could post the FB page there would be more information for you to review and make your own conclusions, but as I said in my previous statement, that post was removed.

So I will post a document that was posted on that page, will that do Oliver?:



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Oliver Peters
Re: Academy of Art University student's CS6 licenses canceled
on Sep 25, 2014 at 2:59:34 am

[Chris Pettit] "So I will post a document that was posted on that page, will that do Oliver?:"

I agree that if this is the whole story, it seems pretty clear cut. The question is whether that's the whole story or not. Hopefully it boils down to some SNAFU for their sake.

- Oliver

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Chris Pettit
Re: Academy of Art University student's CS6 licenses canceled
on Sep 25, 2014 at 3:25:54 am

[Oliver Peters] "I agree that if this is the whole story, it seems pretty clear cut. The question is whether that's the whole story or not. Hopefully it boils down to some SNAFU for their sake."

Fair enough. Maybe you should Google the issue and do your own homework since the positions of those involved are not well represented on the COW because the FB post was removed?

Just a thought.


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David Lawrence
Re: Academy of Art University student's CS6 licenses canceled
on Sep 25, 2014 at 3:35:13 am

[Oliver Peters] "Hopefully it boils down to some SNAFU for their sake."

Agreed. This looks like a screw-up, though the student mentioned how in a conversation with a school official, she was surprised to get something of a sales pitch:
...Ms. Rowley explained that as professionals we should *want* the cloud. She said that technology changes so quickly, and sometimes we have to change with it, and software becomes obsolete regularly. She told me there are times where one's computer doesn't even work and we need to replace them. I calmly explained that I have never, in my life, had a software program which was working perfectly fine, and was used daily, removed from my hands without my consent. I also made it clear that my designs and website look exactly the same on CS6 as they would if I used Creative Cloud...

...I'm not sure what to make of this. I wish very much for AAU to come out looking like nice-guys, however AAU is certainly not faulting Adobe for their current strategies, but rather seems to understand their motivations. She went as far as explaining to me that the cloud is a "money saving" strategy because Adobe's products evolved so quickly, and people were supposedly required to repurchase often. I respectfully find that to be absolute rubbish, based on my own experiences.

The school and Adobe need to be careful. If student's claims are backed by documentation such as Chris posted, Adobe and the school need to fix the problem asap.

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Chris Pettit
Re: Academy of Art University student's CS6 licenses canceled
on Sep 25, 2014 at 4:08:31 am

[David Lawrence] "[Oliver Peters] "Hopefully it boils down to some SNAFU for their sake."

Agreed. This looks like a screw-up, though the student mentioned how in a conversation with a school official, she was surprised to get something of a sales pitch:"


Sorry guys, I'm skeptical. Adobe has demonstrated that it is trying to aggressively steer as many customers, willing or not, into CC. The aggressive "do it our way" style is intentional. Adobe is WAY too worried about it's relationship with Wall street to worry themselves about treating customers well. Too many coincidences. They avoid taking advantage of students/customers ONLY when the PR is bad enough.

We are led to believe that all the problems canceling subscriptions are just SNAFUs? When they said we would be able to open CC files in CS6 and it wasn't true, SNAFU. That they would release a new policy adjustment and then completely abandoned it, SNAFU. Pissing off Photographers and then backing up on that and offering discounts with neck-breaking speed, SNAFU...... On and on

Not buying it.

They push the "customer be damned" envelope until they get caught with a PR problem like AAU. Then they quickly fix it (only to the degree required) and move back to the previous policy. If they fix this mess with AAU, it will be because of social media, not because they give a rats ass..

With the exception of the contributions of specific technical people on this forum, Adobe is what it was 2 years ago: A huge company becoming less and less connected with its original and core customers..

Praying for upstarts. Praying for smart venture capital.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Academy of Art University student's CS6 licenses canceled
on Sep 25, 2014 at 5:18:31 pm

[Chris Pettit] "When they said we would be able to open CC files in CS6 and it wasn't true,"

I don't recall any such promise being made across the board for all Adobe apps. AE and Photoshop are compatible if you save backwards compatible versions. It was never true of Premiere Pro and generally isn't true of much of the software in the industry.

[Chris Pettit] "They push the "customer be damned" envelope until they get caught with a PR problem like AAU."

While you may be absolutely right, this situation doesn't seem to have happened anywhere else in the world. Have you heard of any other examples? Clearly there's something odd going on here, beyond what's obvious.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Chris Pettit
Re: Academy of Art University student's CS6 licenses canceled
on Sep 25, 2014 at 11:50:09 pm

[Oliver Peters] "I don't recall any such promise being made across the board for all Adobe apps. AE and Photoshop are compatible if you save backwards compatible versions. It was never true of Premiere Pro and generally isn't true of much of the software in the industry."

When the anti-CC furor first occurred, Adobe appears to have been caught off guard by the backlash, particularly regarding the issue of access to files. So what they tried to do was "assure" everybody that you can always save out to the older format. They said so on my vimeo page specifically. Only with probing questions did it become obvious there was no long term strategy for protecting the work, starting with the fact that Premiere was already not compatible. They tried to calm the waters by slipping that one by us, IMO

[Oliver Peters] "While you may be absolutely right, this situation doesn't seem to have happened anywhere else in the world. Have you heard of any other examples? Clearly there's something odd going on here, beyond what's obvious."

NFL maybe? there's an example. Lets give Ray Rice a 2 game suspension and everything will be just fine. OOPS..... Video tape. damage control time...Seems similar to me

I'm not implying that only Adobe does this stuff. But again, this is the Adobe forum, so it seems appropriate to mention them specifically.


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David Lawrence
Re: Academy of Art University student's CS6 licenses canceled
on Sep 26, 2014 at 9:37:11 pm

[Oliver Peters] "While you may be absolutely right, this situation doesn't seem to have happened anywhere else in the world. Have you heard of any other examples? Clearly there's something odd going on here, beyond what's obvious."

Apparently it also happened at George Brown College in Ontario. But in this case, the school fought for the students and Adobe backpedaled. Here's a screen grab posted to the Facebook site:





What's worrisome for the Academy of Art University students are reports that AAU is advertising Creative Cloud on campus and apparently the school is featured on Adobe's website. Students are being told they should "want CC because of the benefits". This kind of behavior is why AAU has a certain reputation in SF.

There's supposed to be a solution from Adobe announced today at 4:00. The students are pretty livid at how they're being treated by Adobe and the school. If they have documentation and the situation is similar to George Brown College, anything less than new perpetual CS6 serials will probably lead to a class-action lawsuit.

We'll see what happens.

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Chris Pettit
Re: Academy of Art University student's CS6 licenses canceled
on Sep 26, 2014 at 11:33:01 pm

[David Lawrence] "What's worrisome for the Academy of Art University students are reports that AAU is advertising Creative Cloud on campus and apparently the school is featured on Adobe's website."

Wow, there's a remarkable conflict of interest, you'd think they'd be embarassed. I can see why AAU has the reputation as you've described David. Unbelievable.

Here's the link if anyone's interested:

http://www.adobe.com/creativecloud/buy/students.html


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Academy of Art University student's CS6 licenses canceled
on Sep 26, 2014 at 11:51:14 pm

I agree that the students are getting shafted and either Adobe or AAU needs to step up and make it right.

[Chris Pettit] "Wow, there's a remarkable conflict of interest, you'd think they'd be embarassed. I can see why AAU has the reputation as you've described David. Unbelievable.
"


For profit colleges are higher education rip-off artists. They have no shame and it's gotten so bad that the Feds are thinking about cracking down on how for profit colleges can operate. One of the largest ones (Corinthian Colleges, which runs a number of different for profit colleges) was recently shut down by the Feds and could be subject to a criminal investigation.


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Chris Pettit
Re: Academy of Art University student's CS6 licenses canceled
on Sep 26, 2014 at 11:57:00 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "For profit colleges are higher education rip-off artists. They have no shame and it's gotten so bad that the Feds are thinking about cracking down on how for profit colleges can operate. One of the largest ones (Corinthian Colleges, which runs a number of different for profit colleges) was recently shut down by the Feds and could be subject to a criminal investigation."

Agreed. There needs to be stricter rules on for profit colleges.

And of course Adobe is perfectly willing to get in bed with them while they hose their own students. Partners in crime so to speak.


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David Lawrence
Re: Academy of Art University student's CS6 licenses canceled
on Sep 29, 2014 at 6:48:24 pm

Sarah Ryan, the AAU student leading efforts to make Adobe return deactivated CS6 perpetual licenses posted this message to Facebook this morning outlining the facts of the AAU student case. Assuming this is documented and true, they're pretty damning of both AAU and Adobe. An announcement is expected later this afternoon. Hopefully the right thing will happen.
1.) Between May 2012 and August 2014, the Academy of Art University granted students permanent licenses, for CS6 Master Collection. We have documented proof that we were told, in writing, that these licenses would never expire and all forms of professional and student work were permitted. In fact, we have several sources for this claim, and it is not in dispute.

2.) We were given stand-alone, non-subscription based software, which appears to be the last possible independent version of Adobe’s software suite.

3.) License cancellation began in June 2014, occurring in waves, with the largest set of cancellations (and presumed final batch) occurring around August 3rd, 2014. There was no warning, and no one was prepared to endure the changes or impending costs associated with the theft. Many, in desperation to keep their jobs, were forced to pay the ransom and join Creative Cloud against their personal will.

4.) Adobe blames AAU for the cancellations, with no details as to why, except for a clear direction to only contact AAU about the issue as they will not assist us or explain their reasoning. We have a plethora of sources for this claim.,

5.) The acting school director of AAU told me, Sarah Ryan, directly, that she had “no previous knowledge this would happen.” She even went on to claim “shock” at the turn of events. Therefore while Adobe blames AAU squarely, AAU is claiming complete and total ignorance. I personally find this highly suspicious given the well-orchestrated plan to support Adobe in an advertising campaign, using AAU student work, and AAU real estate. This joint campaign was organized months before the cancellations took place. AAU and Adobe are in a public business relationship. It is self-evident and their joint campaign took preparation, well before the theft of our software, and subsequent push towards adopting the very product on the advertisements. This makes the claim of ignorance absurd, and insulting to all involved.

6.) The licenses installed on our computers make no reference to our software being time limited, revocable, or even student editions. We have read them, with lawyers. Again, written, documented proof.

7.) Adobe will not show us proof that the cancellations were valid. They will not produce any documentation or make any public announcements. In fact I have, in writing, from customer support at Adobe, that no such document exists to prove the time limitation of my software - because there isn't such language anywhere.

8.) AAU will not produce any documentation to support their position to force the adoption of Creative Cloud for current,or past students. They will not prove the terms of the licensing contract with Adobe either. The only public announcement that was made offered no details on how they would support us at all, let alone defend our consumer rights.

9.) AAU’s acting director, Sue Rowley, is publicly telling student reps that we, the students, need to support Adobe’s financial model. This is a direct conflict of interest. Her job is to lead our university and support students seeking higher education. She has instead publicly stated her allegiance and support for a billion dollar company’s marketing strategy. She empathizes with it, and went as far as to tell me I should "want" Creative Cloud. This conflict of interest deserves recognition and investigation.

10.) George Brown College also had their CS6 licenses revoked by Adobe in a similar turn of events. That college was able to have the license keys returned to students, after applying pressure to Adobe on behalf of their student body. AAU has been made aware of this fact, and has not replied to it.

11.) Friday August 26th, 2014 AAU was meant to release a statement about “options” for “alumni (only)” which was never released. Licensure was not dependent upon graduation status at the time it was conveyed, making this statement confusing. AAU canceled their plans to finally make a statement (after nearly one month of requests) and we are still left with no answers.

12.) A Creative Cloud subscription will cost 600$ annually, per person, with raises in rates yearly, for life. This unexpected cost is too much for many, putting their livelihoods at risk.

In conclusion:

We had a contract. Adobe (and possibly AAU) broke it. AAU has done nothing to defend us, and may be complicit in our misfortune. Students are being fed information that is not rooted in the facts, or relevant to the simple issue at hand. AAU attempts to distract us with irrelevant topics and details.

We all had software, which people depend on to make a living, and earn an education. It was stolen without warning, and it has not been returned. It was deactivated from personal computers without their consent. People have lost time, money, opportunities, and in a few cases housing as a result.

Don’t get distracted by the spin, or the superfluous details. This is robbery and people have been massively impacted by it – financially, emotionally, and creatively.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Academy of Art University student's CS6 licenses canceled
on Sep 29, 2014 at 7:51:40 pm

[David Lawrence] "Sarah Ryan, the AAU student leading efforts to make Adobe return deactivated CS6 perpetual licenses posted this message to Facebook this morning outlining the facts of the AAU student case. Assuming this is documented and true, they're pretty damning of both AAU and Adobe. An announcement is expected later this afternoon. Hopefully the right thing will happen."

David,

Have any of the students posted the contracts/EULAs they had with AAU and/or Adobe?

I was with it until point number 12 which is patently false. Fair or not it makes me question their comprehension of the contracts/EULAs they agreed to (which were surely full of legalize) and/or their willingness to exaggerate to make their case.

Adobe should just re-issue CS6 perp license keys to all the students. Even if Adobe proves that it's AAU's fault, or that the students missed the weasel words in their contracts, Adobe still loses in the court of public opinion.


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Ricardo Marty
Re: Academy of Art University student's CS6 licenses canceled
on Sep 29, 2014 at 11:08:12 pm

as if adobe listens,yea right


ricardo marty


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David Lawrence
Re: Academy of Art University student's CS6 licenses canceled
on Sep 30, 2014 at 5:41:26 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "Have any of the students posted the contracts/EULAs they had with AAU and/or Adobe?"

Andrew,

I haven't seen an actual contract posted, but I believe they've done their homework. My understanding is that their tuition costs were raised by $2700 to cover the cost of perpetual CS6 licenses and that the CS software they installed was the full edition, not the "Teacher and Student" edition.

[Andrew Kimery] "I was with it until point number 12 which is patently false. Fair or not it makes me question their comprehension of the contracts/EULAs they agreed to (which were surely full of legalize) and/or their willingness to exaggerate to make their case."

Other than the omission of the word "possible" (with possible raises in rates), I see nothing false in point number 12. Keep in mind that an overwhelming majority these students only need the graphic design tools - Ps and Il. CS6 has a much longer shelf life for them.

Also, the fact that George Brown University students got their full licenses back is telling.

AAU announced yesterday that students may get a one-year extension on their CS6 licenses. When the year is up, the licenses expire and they will be forced to join CC.

The students say this is unacceptable. They want their full licenses back.

Why are AAU students being treated differently than GBU students? Perhaps the fact that AAU is colluding with Adobe might have something to do with it?

http://www.adobe.com/creativecloud/buy/students.html

[Andrew Kimery] "Adobe should just re-issue CS6 perp license keys to all the students. Even if Adobe proves that it's AAU's fault, or that the students missed the weasel words in their contracts, Adobe still loses in the court of public opinion."

Agreed. Treat it as loss leader and be done with it. By being stubborn, both AAU and Adobe reveal their true intentions towards their students and their customers.

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Andrew Kimery
Re: Academy of Art University student's CS6 licenses canceled
on Sep 30, 2014 at 6:48:43 pm

[David Lawrence] "Other than the omission of the word "possible" (with possible raises in rates), I see nothing false in point number 12. Keep in mind that an overwhelming majority these students only need the graphic design tools - Ps and Il. CS6 has a much longer shelf life for them."

"Possible" is a pretty important word though and completely changes the meaning of the statement. Factually incorrect is factually incorrect and contracts/EULAs are full of instances where single words, by omission or inclusion, are engineered to make a world of difference by making people think they are getting X when they are really getting Y. For example, if you took a random survey of Americans how many would think they own the music they buy and how many would know they own a limited use license that only gives them the right to play the music in a private, non-commercial setting?

Raise your hand if you read the entire EULA/TOS agreement for all the services you pay for, software you use and/or digital media media you buy/rent?

[David Lawrence] "Why are AAU students being treated differently than GBU students? Perhaps the fact that AAU is colluding with Adobe might have something to do with it?"

Or maybe AAU's contractual agreement with Adobe is different than GBU's? I just did a quick flyby of the Adobe boards and there is conflicting info all over the place. Some students say when they confronted AAU, AAU admitted the licenses were temp (so EDU license I guess). Some students say AAU told them that the licenses were perpetual and to contact Adobe. Some students said Adobe said the licenses were temp. Some students said Adobe said the licenses were not temp and should not have been canceled.


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David Lawrence
Re: Academy of Art University student's CS6 licenses canceled
on Oct 11, 2014 at 12:37:38 am

[Andrew Kimery] "Or maybe AAU's contractual agreement with Adobe is different than GBU's? I just did a quick flyby of the Adobe boards and there is conflicting info all over the place. Some students say when they confronted AAU, AAU admitted the licenses were temp (so EDU license I guess). Some students say AAU told them that the licenses were perpetual and to contact Adobe. Some students said Adobe said the licenses were temp. Some students said Adobe said the licenses were not temp and should not have been canceled."

Another article in the news today from The Bold Italic:

http://www.thebolditalic.com/articles/6029-academy-of-art-adobe-pissing-off...

Key quote:
There have been a lot of accusations and arguments being thrown around on message boards and social media so I reached out to Adobe and AAU to get the facts for myself. Here’s what I found out:

The license keys were single-user keys, not volume license keys.

The EULA states that unless otherwise specified, “the license term shall be perpetual.”

No documentation exists specifying otherwise, either from AAU or Adobe.

AAU and Adobe both claim their contract applied only to students who were currently enrolled but CS6 licenses were deactivated for 18,000 current students as well as alumni.

Furthermore, neither side will comment on why the licenses were only now canceled, years after some students graduated.

And and apparently, students at another school had their keys replaced. The AAU students seem to have a real case. This story is not going away.

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Andrew Kimery
Re: Academy of Art University student's CS6 licenses canceled
on Oct 13, 2014 at 10:50:28 pm

Pando Daily had an article about this today. It's not very well done and mainly just rehashes the situation as we already know it (a rather uncharacteristically weak article from their usual content) but it does offer one pice of info I had seen yet. A response from AAU which I've quoted below.


http://pando.com/2014/10/13/cloud-this-adobe-has-been-screwing-art-students...

We regret the recent confusion regarding the Academy of Art University (AAU) and Adobe’s software term usage agreement for Adobe’s Creative Suite applications.

Under the current contract between AAU and Adobe, Creative Suite software licenses are valid for the period of enrollment at AAU only.

As a courtesy to recent Academy graduates and alumni, AAU is providing a license extension of Adobe Creative Suite 6 (CS6) to students who attended AAU between May 1, 2012 and September 1, 2014, and received a CS6 license during that period of time. This license extension is being offered free of charge and will be valid through December 31, 2015. There is also an option to purchase a first-year discounted version of the new Adobe Creative Cloud membership.



I've noticed is use of the phrase "License Term shall be perpetual" w/o looking at it in context. Now, I certainly have not read the whole EULA from tip to tail but the sentence immediately preceding the 'perpetual' line.

. Unless otherwise defined in this Agreement, in the applicable Documentation, or at the time of purchase, License Term shall be perpetual.


People have apparently looked at the rest of the Agreement and for other applicable Documentation and found nothing but what about "time of purchase"? Could a hand written note scribble on a 3x5 index card and taped to the side of a cash register at the student book store before enough to satisfy that part of the EULA? How about just a verbal mention at the time of purchase? If the AAU rep is to be believed then there was a miscommunication from AAU to its students. Did someone at AAU just forget to mention the ticking time bomb they were selling or is it the dire act of a business partner falling on their sword? Murder on the Silicon Valley Express! 10 Little Software Developers! Okay, now I'm just crazy.


When I was in high school I worked at a convenience store and while stocking the shelves one day I noticed that we started carrying a new candy bar, the Milky Way Lite (this was the early days of health food rebranding crazy in the US). The wrapper talked about less calories, less sugar, etc., than a normal Milky Way bar which all seemed like a modern marvel of candy engineering until you compared it to a normal Milky Way bar and found that the lite version was much smaller! It was just a scaled down version of a regular Milk Way bar. By slapping a few keywords on the wrapper M&M/Mars had figured out a way charge more money for a smaller version of the same candy bar. Social engineering at it's best.


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David Lawrence
Re: Academy of Art University student's CS6 licenses canceled
on Oct 14, 2014 at 5:17:45 am

[Andrew Kimery] "Under the current contract between AAU and Adobe, Creative Suite software licenses are valid for the period of enrollment at AAU only."

Note the language.

The student's argument is that the perpetual software they purchased was purchased under a previous contract, not the current one.

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Andrew Kimery
Re: Academy of Art University student's CS6 licenses canceled
on Oct 14, 2014 at 3:25:24 pm

[David Lawrence] "Note the language.

The student's argument is that the perpetual software they purchased was purchased under a previous contract, not the current one."


You are correct. I meant to note that choice of wording in my previous post as well but it slipped my mind.


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David Lawrence
Re: Academy of Art University student's CS6 licenses canceled
on Sep 27, 2014 at 12:40:03 am

[Andrew Kimery] "For profit colleges are higher education rip-off artists. They have no shame and it's gotten so bad that the Feds are thinking about cracking down on how for profit colleges can operate. One of the largest ones (Corinthian Colleges, which runs a number of different for profit colleges) was recently shut down by the Feds and could be subject to a criminal investigation."

Yep, AAU is exactly like these guys. It good the Feds are finally starting to crack down on these institutions because they really are bad news.

In SF they're known as a kinda real-estate scam, in that they typically buy big, valuable properties all over the city and take advantage of city benefits for being an educational institution, even though they're a large, very profitable, for-profit corporation. It's really more an expensive trade school than an art school. They're exactly the kind of partner Adobe wants and would gladly endorse and promote the corporate subscription model.

Fortunately, the students are smart and are having none of this. They're not backing down. They've been emailing the George Brown College screen grab to Adobe and AAU officials. The lead student said that the 4:00 announcement has been delayed until Monday. Something's definitely up.

Have to say, this is a fascinating story to watch. Go AAU students!

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Richard Herd
Re: Academy of Art University student's CS6 licenses canceled
on Sep 29, 2014 at 7:19:14 pm

[David Lawrence] "This kind of behavior is why AAU has a certain reputation in SF."


...a certain reputation among certain people. It is not fair or correct to say the entire city of SF holds one particular belief about one particular place.

I learned learned a lot at AAU, SF (2005), and still hold my instructors and classmates in high esteem.

Regarding the fees and tuition, the other way to construe it is "you get what you pay for." I learned to shoot on some very high end equipment while other local institutions barely had equipment.

Regardless, Here's my understanding of the student's claim: She took a class and the fees for the class included a $2700 download of CS6. But did she pay class fees of $2700?


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Chris Pettit
Re: Academy of Art University student's CS6 licenses canceled
on Sep 30, 2014 at 3:23:19 am

[Richard Herd] "She took a class and the fees for the class included a $2700 download of CS6. But did she pay class fees of $2700?"

You went to the school, you tell us. My understanding is that it can cost $12,000 per semester to attend. Is that untrue? Are you saying you know for a fact that it relates to only one class? Could it have been part of the overall tuition offering?

Seems like a remarkably large amount of students who are convinced they have been royally screwed here, and are going to great lengths to vocalize their grievance. I take it you're saying they have no ground to stand on.

Either way, the conflict of interest issue is stark and hard to avoid, with AAU and Adobe conducting joint AD Campaigns. Here is a great interview that helps explain the confusion and the debate:







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Bill Davis
Re: Academy of Art University student's CS6 licenses canceled
on Sep 30, 2014 at 4:00:24 pm

[Chris Pettit] "My understanding is that it can cost $12,000 per semester to attend. Is that untrue? "

I have my doubts that AAU makes only $12,000 per semester per student. From what I've read, the student tuition is just a part of the income stream from most "trade school" situations. I've read it's typical for these schools to also get direct public money (read tax dollars) to provide trade education to their students - often in amounts in excess of what the student pays. So it's a pretty lucrative situation for the vendor. They get paid "up front" by the government - and the student still keeps paying off their education for either years or decades. It's no surprise that some of the founders of "for profit" schools are among the richest people out there. I think the founder of the University of Phoenix (the online college) John Sperling, had a net worth of around 1.2 Billion dollars at the time of his death at 92.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Academy of Art University student's CS6 licenses canceled
on Sep 30, 2014 at 4:08:59 pm

[Bill Davis] "I have my doubts that AAU makes only $12,000 per semester per student. From what I've read, the student tuition is just a part of the income stream from most "trade school" situations. "

I would just point out that such highly regarded film schools as USC, NYU and Univ. of Miami do not operate much differently. The big difference is that a place like USC can tack on Lucas' or Spielberg's name.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Bill Davis
Re: Academy of Art University student's CS6 licenses canceled
on Sep 30, 2014 at 6:37:47 pm

[Oliver Peters] "I would just point out that such highly regarded film schools as USC, NYU and Univ. of Miami do not operate much differently. The big difference is that a place like USC can tack on Lucas' or Spielberg's name.

- Oliver
"


Absolutely, Oliver.
I understand that some schools (I think Harvard was the example I read about) are so astonishingly rich from "endowments" that they can literally run for 100s of years without taking a single dime in tuition from any of their entering students. Of course NONE of them do that. (Scholarships aside)

The entire education "industry" is being hit as hard as video editing, IMO. The necessity for a massive plant (TV station or Standalone Production Facility in video - and College Campus in Education) is being pressured by the on-line revolution.

Look at what Kahn Academy is doing. And how Apple has partnered with Pearson (the MONSTER education conglomerate) to push digital training and certification out to end users, making the need for physical classes a less and less critical part of the education experience.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Richard Herd
Re: Academy of Art University student's CS6 licenses canceled
on Oct 1, 2014 at 5:18:01 pm

You may be interested in this link http://www.indiewire.com/article/award-winning-dps-janusz-kaminski-phedon-p...


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Richard Herd
Re: Academy of Art University student's CS6 licenses canceled
on Sep 30, 2014 at 11:30:40 pm

[Chris Pettit] "You went to the school, you tell us. "

She did not.

[Chris Pettit] "My understanding is that it can cost $12,000 per semester to attend. Is that untrue? Are you saying you know for a fact that it relates to only one class? Could it have been part of the overall tuition offering?"

When I attended it was $550/unit. $12k/year sounds accurate, though living costs in SF can get very expensive. I BART'd in from Contra Costa.

I know for a fact when I attended I did not pay any fees for software licenses. But it appears I was in a different program than the individual in question. As part of the course fees (separate from tuition) there are dozens of labs running high end computers and the necessary software to complete the work. Students have access to those labs and homework and instruction are designed to use the labs. If someone wants to purchase software independently then that is their own deal with the vendor. For example, when I attended it was Avid and FCP 3. Some students bought the software independently on their own. I did not. There was never an offer from anyone for a discount on any software.

My understanding of the film school (not web, or print, for example) is on Avid, and has been the main software since I attended.

The scenario that is not happening is some version of the following conspiracy theory: AAU, SF together with Adobe have tacked on $2700 as part of their aid package and mysteriously charged poor unsuspecting students; then, dropped their licenses.

Regarding the video, it does not clear up any questions. At 12 minutes, she explains how long licenses lasted, which indicates something different than buying CS6 -- which I'm running right now (love it, fyi) and the license can't be turned off. I would be more prone to believe there were many students who used a few licenses. Installed. Uninstalled. Shared. Installed. Uninstalled. And so on.


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David Lawrence
Re: Academy of Art University student's CS6 licenses canceled
on Sep 30, 2014 at 5:22:13 pm

[Richard Herd] "...a certain reputation among certain people. It is not fair or correct to say the entire city of SF holds one particular belief about one particular place.

I learned learned a lot at AAU, SF (2005), and still hold my instructors and classmates in high esteem. "


Richard, I believe you. I have friends who are outstanding artists who've been faculty at AAU, and know students who started at AAU and went on to do great work at SFAI and CCA.

Nonetheless, AAU's institutional reputation for corruption is a well known and documented fact. Here's a fairly recent SF Weekly article with many links describing a confidential memo from the City Attorney blasting AAU and the Planning Department for flagrant Planning Code violations:

http://bit.ly/1rBbUxK

From the article:
The Academy owns more than 40 buildings throughout the city. For decades, the city was unaware of how many structures the school owned, let alone that it had, repeatedly, illegally converted structures into student housing without bothering to obtain city permission.

Knowing it can cram multiple students into non-rent-controlled rooms, the Academy can easily outbid other would-be property buyers. Hundreds of millions of dollars pour in via students' pricey tuition payments each year, with much of it coming from the government via student loans.

BTW, the SF Mayor's office and City Planning Department are also a corrupt actors in this ongoing scam, but that's a whole other topic.

It's no surprise that an institution like AAU would collude with Adobe to attempt to force their students into lifetime subscription payments. I'm glad the students are fighting back.

_______________________
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Richard Herd
Re: Academy of Art University student's CS6 licenses canceled
on Sep 30, 2014 at 11:25:49 pm

The current President has done a lot to clean up some bad practices for sure. Thanks for the link!


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Chris Pettit
Re: Academy of Art University student's CS6 licenses canceled
on Sep 25, 2014 at 2:37:55 am

[David Lawrence] "I don't know if the Facebook link was deemed out-of-bounds but this is a very real issue that has the attention of the local news. The student is smart, articulate and pissed. If she has documentation to back up her claim that a CS6 perpetual license was included in her tuition, I expect Adobe and AAU will fix this very quickly."

Thanks David. Not sure how a Facebook page link would be considered out-of bounds exactly. Really concerned about that issue overall.

But the language regarding "aggressively converting the large installed base of CS customers to Creative Cloud." sure seems to apply here IMO.


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David Mathis
Re: Academy of Art University student's CS6 licenses canceled
on Sep 25, 2014 at 2:50:45 am

[David Lawrence] " I don't know if the Facebook link was deemed out-of-bounds but this is a very real issue that has the attention of the local news. The student is smart, articulate and pissed. If she has documentation to back up her claim that a CS6 perpetual license was included in her tuition, I expect Adobe and AAU will fix this very quickly."

Mr. Lawrence:

I was following the thread on my smart phone and accidentally clicked on the flag icon. This might have caused the original post to be deleted? My apologies in advance. Please advise, thank you.

camera operator | editor | production assistant

Remember kids, tracks are you friends when you charge by the hour. Track Tetris, game on!


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Chris Pettit
Re: Academy of Art University student's CS6 licenses canceled
on Sep 25, 2014 at 3:10:31 am

[David Mathis] "I was following the thread on my smart phone and accidentally clicked on the flag icon. This might have caused the original post to be deleted? My apologies in advance. Please advise, thank you."

Hi David. My guess is that wasn't it, but not sure. But even if it was, don't worry about it, it happens. I appreciate your concern. Thanks for posting, as always


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David Lawrence
Re: Academy of Art University student's CS6 licenses canceled
on Sep 25, 2014 at 3:24:03 am

[David Mathis] "This might have caused the original post to be deleted? "

No worries, David :)

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Tim Wilson
Re: Academy of Art University student's CS6 licenses canceled
on Sep 25, 2014 at 7:02:59 pm

re: disappearing post, I have no idea about that. Virtually all external links I've seen posted in the COW are legit, and this certainly meets any of our standards in that regard.

Just to articulate that a little more fully, the external link would need to meet the same criteria for a post within the COW. You can come up with the obvious stuff (porn, etc), but that would also apply to things like appropriate language and freedom from personal attack, including personal attack language levied at companies.

I think we've been very good at allowing anything within those guidelines, which have been in place for 19 years here. (20 years in April!) Again, I have no explanation for the previous post disappearing, but I can assure you that it wasn't through administrative action.

Finally, I'll also take this opportunity to extend an invitation to join the Creative COW Facebook page, nearing 80,000 friends. C'mon guys, I know we have more friends than that. :-)


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David Mathis
Re: Academy of Art University student's CS6 licenses canceled
on Sep 25, 2014 at 7:18:30 pm

Thanks for the explanation Tim, first I thought it was from me clicking on the flag icon by accident. Was on my smart phone and I have big thumbs. Soon after that the post disappeared which is what led me to my conclusion. Going to use my computer for now on this way at least I know what I am clicking on.

Probably just a filter gremlin on the loose. ;-)


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Tim Wilson
Re: Academy of Art University student's CS6 licenses canceled
on Sep 25, 2014 at 11:35:55 pm

Actually, if you hit the Flag button, that might have done it. Don't do that. :-)


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David Mathis
Re: Academy of Art University student's CS6 licenses canceled
on Sep 25, 2014 at 11:49:30 pm

Yes sir! I will be much more careful. As soon as I realized what happened I went into full panic mode.


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Gary Huff
Re: Academy of Art University student's CS6 licenses canceled
on Sep 25, 2014 at 11:35:03 pm

[Tim Wilson] "I have no idea about that. Virtually all external links I've seen posted in the COW are legit, and this certainly meets any of our standards in that regard."

It went to the same place that the text message I sent via Siri the other day went...into the netherworld.

Seriously though, posts appear and disappear routinely on here I have noticed. I blame this guy:



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JP Pelc
Re: ???
on Oct 23, 2014 at 5:38:28 pm

Has anything developed further from this? I am very curious. Obviously there is a lot of emotion involved and a lot of speculation about EULA's and such. Maybe I'm biased because I am not happy about wasting $100,000 for a worthless film degree, but it seems to me that the fault here is very likely with the school. It's possible that students were told multiple times verbally and in writing that their license was perpetual even though that is not the agreement the school had with Adobe. If this is the case then surely there were a few instances where they were outright lied to by administrators who knew the truth, and most of the cases they probably asked somebody who really didn't know the answer, but word of mouth led them believe the licenses are perpetual.

I know with my school, there were older generation cameras lying around mostly unused, and we were told dozens of times that alumni would have access to borrowing the cameras within 5 years after graduation. I graduated, went to media services to borrow one, and was told I must be a current student. I was only slightly upset because they were crappy cameras anyway, but mostly I was furious because just after feeling deceived into believing my degree and time at school would have value, (it didn't) I was then directly lied to about what the school offered alumni. In calm retrospect most of the false information came from student-workers or random students just going by what they had heard but at least a few times it came from instructors and administrators who at best are ignorant of their own policies, and at worst looked me in the eyes and knowingly lied.

But as Andrew said, if Adobe is wise they will just give the students CS6 licenses, as the more this drags on the more likely they are to take a PR hit, regardless of whether or not they are in the wrong


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Chris Pettit
Re: ???
on Oct 24, 2014 at 3:01:52 pm

[JP Pelc] "Has anything developed further from this? I am very curious."

They're attempting to litigate it, including the attorney generals office. As with other similar situations, the big institutions (AAU and Adobe) are opaque with their communication, and conceding nothing. If you're interested, follow along with the Facebook page:

https://www.facebook.com/adobesteals

Broadly speaking, regardless what happened at AAU specifically, Adobe is actively seeking to force students against their will into lifelong subscriptions, that is clear. This article is relative to other schools wrestling with the same issues:

http://m.collegiatetimes.com/news/article_ac92dd80-53f6-11e4-af0c-001a4bcf6...

Choices comments:

"These feelings are echoed throughout the majority of the college.

“We’re going to end up paying the most,” said second year architecture student Alyssa Brink, who had to purchase the standalone version of the software just last year.

The School of Architecture and Design has not been unresponsive to student’s complaints, but they said that this situation is out of their control.

“Adobe has been has been very inflexible in their position, and they have essentially mandated an ‘all in’ agreement for the Creative Cloud,” wrote associate professor Bill Galloway in an email sent to all architecture students."


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