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So is that it - have Adobe won?

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Steve Connor
So is that it - have Adobe won?
on Aug 18, 2014 at 6:29:25 pm

Very quiet over here, has everyone given up protesting?

Has anyone actually changed their position on the subscription model, either way?

No sig on my posts as it's apparently very old fashioned


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David Lawrence
Re: So is that it - have Adobe won?
on Aug 18, 2014 at 6:53:31 pm

[Steve Connor] "Has anyone actually changed their position on the subscription model, either way?"

Nope. Just busy and nothing new to say.

_______________________
David Lawrence
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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: So is that it - have Adobe won?
on Aug 20, 2014 at 10:34:34 am

ditto

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Hans Swets
Re: So is that it - have Adobe won?
on Aug 18, 2014 at 6:58:28 pm

It depends on how you define "won".
I think a lot of users went back to CS6 or are looking for alternatives outside Adobe. The pro and cons of Adobe's strategy, have been addressed in this forum (a lot!) What else is left to say? I'm done with it.
I am a long time Adobe user (starting with Premiere 3.0)and have used all the later incarnations.
I really like CS6 production premium.
What was troubling at the time was that "On Location" was no longer in the bundle. I had to keep CS5.5 installed for On Location.
I tried out CC, on the 1 year introduction rate, to see if it would fit my needs.
I really disliked that now Encore was no longer bundled and Automatic linking to Encore CS6 was no longer available.
Long story short: My dislikes of Adobe's strategy became greater than my likes. I cancelled my CC subscription in May, and am happy using my paid for CS6 bundle.



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Mike Parfit
Re: So is that it - have Adobe won?
on Aug 18, 2014 at 7:51:18 pm

Adobe didn't win. It lost.

It may have reached some of its short-term financial goals, and it may have outlasted the present noise. But it has deeply fertilized the ground for its future competition, by burning much of the good will its many friendly, capable employees have built up over the years.

Those employees remain, continually trying to rebuild structures of trust that the overall corporate leadership seems intent on dismissing. But the fact remains that the company that promised always to listen to its customers has not done so. It has refused to seek compromise solutions to the widely-articulated problem of subscriptions without off-ramps.

Those compromises exist. The company has played hardball and has not sought them. It may have won in the short term. Longer-term is another story.

Mike


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Gary Huff
Re: So is that it - have Adobe won?
on Aug 18, 2014 at 10:31:27 pm

[Mike Parfit] "It may have reached some of its short-term financial goals, and it may have outlasted the present noise. But it has deeply fertilized the ground for its future competition, by burning much of the good will its many friendly, capable employees have built up over the years."

And what if that doesn't actually happen?


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JP Pelc
Re: So is that it - have Adobe won?
on Aug 18, 2014 at 7:20:51 pm

What else is there to say? Having/seeing the same debate endlessly gets old. (One reason why I love not having Facebook)


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Rainer Schubert
Re: So is that it - have Adobe won?
on Aug 18, 2014 at 7:36:41 pm

As quiet as Adobe was during the whole discussion.
No word from there.
No serious Exit/No buy out.
No Alternative to "Take all or Leave"
Everyone on Master Collection Level - if necessary or not.
and so on.
Pros and Cons are told.

As long as perpetual software or software with a fair buy-out strategy is available, I will never subscribe to or rent (the access to) my own work.
And I know I´m not alone.
Many of my business related bought into CS6 and will decide in future.
And also a lot - like me - are on alternatives, where ever possible.

If Adobe really won?
Only time can tell...
I personally don´t think so.


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Steve Modica
Re: So is that it - have Adobe won?
on Aug 18, 2014 at 8:09:55 pm

Setting aside the subscription model, I have to say that Adobe has been amazingly helpful in finding and fixing bugs.

Since we sell NAS based storage, we obviously run into a lot of work flow questions from customers relating to how each NLE works. Avid and Apple really don't have much to say about these things. We file bugs when we see something is broken. Adobe gets right in there. People call. They get sample video and projects. Even better, they fix bugs and get the changes into the next release.

So perhaps the subscription model is bad, but they sure have been working hard to make the software work better (at least from my perspective).

Steve

Steve Modica
CTO, Small Tree Communications


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Jim Wiseman
Re: So is that it - have Adobe won?
on Aug 18, 2014 at 8:26:40 pm

I will never give Adobe as much as one thin dime. I have found other ways to work. The only reason I come here is to hear about other solutions than Adobe. CS6 (as little as I use it) will run on one of my Macs until I am dead. Hopefully I outlast Adobe.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.1.1, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.5, Premiere Pro CS 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Blackmagic Teranex, Avid MC, 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1 TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD


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David Mathis
Re: So is that it - have Adobe won?
on Aug 18, 2014 at 8:46:03 pm

I have found my solution.

Editing and finishing: FCP X and Motion
Motion graphics: Motion
Color grading: Resolve 11

Looking at Acorn to replace Photoshop and saving money for a node based compositor.


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Gary Huff
Re: So is that it - have Adobe won?
on Aug 18, 2014 at 10:34:35 pm

[David Mathis] "Looking at Acorn to replace Photoshop"

Looking at and actually using are very different concepts.


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Joe Brooks
Re: So is that it - have Adobe won?
on Aug 18, 2014 at 11:10:45 pm

I intend to move to a node based compositor as well, but not just yet, for now CS 5.5 is still working for me and I don't have time at the moment to learn new software. Moving to node based is something I was considering doing anyway, so that change probably isn't Adobe's fault, they've just accelerated the time table.


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Chris Pettit
Re: So is that it - have Adobe won?
on Aug 18, 2014 at 11:47:56 pm

[Joe Brooks] "I intend to move to a node based compositor as well, but not just yet, for now CS 5.5 is still working for me and I don't have time at the moment to learn new software. Moving to node based is something I was considering doing anyway, so that change probably isn't Adobe's fault, they've just accelerated the time table."

Interesting. I'm looking at this as well. Can you share what direction you're leaning at this point? Thanks Joe


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Joe Brooks
Re: So is that it - have Adobe won?
on Aug 19, 2014 at 12:00:00 am

[Chris Pettit] "Interesting. I'm looking at this as well. Can you share what direction you're leaning at this point? Thanks Joe"

Hi Chris.

You know I think what I've been trying to do is justify the price of Nuke, that seems to be the one I have become most interested in. That said, I don't really have any concrete reasons why that one has captured my interest.

How about you, what have you been considering ?


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Chris Pettit
Re: So is that it - have Adobe won?
on Aug 19, 2014 at 5:12:21 am

[Joe Brooks] "How about you, what have you been considering ?"

Exact same reasoning Joe. I'm actually willing to invest in Foundry products, even including Nuke's hefty price tag, and I'm interested in moving on beyond Adobe's approach to, well, everything, including the composting pipeline. And I've had a small introduction to the concept of node based pipelines.

But I'm not sure where to jump quite yet. I feel like other options are soon to be on the horizon, but there is no science behind that belief.

Thanks for responding.


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Walter Soyka
Re: So is that it - have Adobe won?
on Aug 19, 2014 at 11:03:06 am

[Chris Pettit] "I'm actually willing to invest in Foundry products, even including Nuke's hefty price tag, and I'm interested in moving on beyond Adobe's approach to, well, everything, including the composting pipeline. And I've had a small introduction to the concept of node based pipelines. "

You can buy a NUKE license outright, but you'll want to consider the maintenance agreement, too. I know your argument about CC is not about the cost, but for context, maintaining a single license of NUKE costs about the same as two annual subscriptions to Creative Cloud.

Generally speaking, nodal compositing is closer to the metal. You have more control over the render order than you do with Ae, which is great for complex comps but a bit of a hassle for simple ones. Layer-based compositing like Ae/Motion certainly feels more natural for animation, but NUKE 8's dope sheet is improved from previous versions.


[Chris Pettit] "But I'm not sure where to jump quite yet. I feel like other options are soon to be on the horizon, but there is no science behind that belief."

Smoke is now subscription-only, so I assume that's out of consideration.

NUKE is a juggernaut. It's a fantastic application with a huge amount of industry support. The Foundry are making impressive advances with every release, but some users feel that nothing is changing (sound familiar?). I'd say NUKE's major advantages over other systems are its channel-agnostic approach and extreme extensibility. The Foundry are currently running a 20% off sale for users of competitive compositors (Ae included).

Fusion has falling out of favor a bit, having lost considerable ground to NUKE in the last few years, but Eyeon has just put out a new major release. Fusion leverages the GPU quite a bit and renders faster than NUKE does. There are some nice tools and a handful of folks doing some impressive shot-based motion graphics work with Fusion. Eyeon also has a cool connection with Avid Media Composer which integrates Fusion's compositing with Avid's editorial.

Mamba FX is the new kid on the block, probably the closest to another option "soon to be on the horizon," with version 1 released just last year at IBC. The performance is excellent, but the SGO interface is "unique." It's based on Mistika and is quite inexpensive for what it can do. The user base is still pretty small.

I have heard a few people mention Blender for compositing. That's ideologically attractive as Blender is open-source. I love the idea of a compositor that's bolted on to a 3D renderer, so if I were using Blender for 3D I'd absolutely try compositing there. However, this is a solution that I have seen talked about many times but never used in practice. There are a couple other open-source compositors (ButtleOFX, Natron), too, but the same of issue of theory-versus-practice may apply (which arguably applies to everything in this space except Ae and NUKE).

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Walter Soyka
Re: So is that it - have Adobe won?
on Aug 19, 2014 at 12:33:25 am

[Joe Brooks] "I intend to move to a node based compositor as well, but not just yet..."

[Chris Pettit] "Interesting. I'm looking at this as well. Can you share what direction you're leaning at this point?"

I've used Fusion, Mamba FX, NUKE and Smoke. I'm not a complete wiz with each of them, but maybe I can provide at least some background if you have a more specific line of inquiry?

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Gary Huff
Re: So is that it - have Adobe won?
on Aug 18, 2014 at 10:32:11 pm

[Jim Wiseman] "I have found other ways to work."

What are you using specifically, besides Adobe CS6? Pixelmator? iDraw? Lightworks? FCPX?


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Jim Wiseman
Re: So is that it - have Adobe won?
on Aug 25, 2014 at 5:27:13 pm

FCPX, Motion, even Media 100 2.1.5. I was the dealer here for them, also for Avid. I do mostly docs, compositing not really an issue. Have rediscovered M100. Beautiful images up to 4K, although all my source is 1080 or below, going back many years. A lot is historical. Want to put in a viewable context. M100 will do fine as I learn FCP. Adobe a non starter.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.1.1, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.5, Premiere Pro CS 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Blackmagic Teranex, Avid MC, 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1 TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD


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David Joseph
Re: So is that it - have Adobe won?
on Aug 18, 2014 at 9:17:03 pm
Last Edited By David Joseph on Aug 18, 2014 at 9:17:54 pm

I've been a Adobe user since 2008 and I gotta say Adobe needs to rethink how they do business. Entertainment companies rarely use CC since mostly they use CS6 as I do so as well. I hear CC got better for workflow options but never improved the fact that you might lose everything when a server of theirs go down. I will only use CS6 — the last of its Create Suite kind. I've attended the Adobe Max convention when they were unveiling its new techniques and etc. I don't like Avid/Adobe because they treat their customers badly but I have to their products in order function in the real world. Sony will never put their product in the real world so I'm stuck with the Adobe/Avid craze.

I found two workflows:
• Media Composer 5.5 w/symphony option
• Sony Vegas Pro 10e

* I use ProTools 10 for audio sweetening


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Andrew Kimery
Re: So is that it - have Adobe won?
on Aug 18, 2014 at 9:45:44 pm

[David Joseph] "Entertainment companies rarely use CC since mostly they use CS6 as I do so as well."

Can you expand on that? In LA at least I'm seeing a growing number of productions using CC (still small overall but growing) and it wasn't too long ago that CNN announced it was going all in with CC and Adobe Anywhere.

[David Joseph] "I hear CC got better for workflow options but never improved the fact that you might lose everything when a server of theirs go down"

Everything is stored and run locally so you don't lose any work if Adobe's servers hiccup. You don't even have connect to the Internet but once every three months to allow the software to phone home and validate your subscription.


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Gary Huff
Re: So is that it - have Adobe won?
on Aug 18, 2014 at 10:33:16 pm

[David Joseph] "I hear CC got better for workflow options but never improved the fact that you might lose everything when a server of theirs go down."

Where did you hear that? It is quite false.


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Billy Payn
Re: So is that it - have Adobe won?
on Aug 18, 2014 at 10:06:42 pm

Adobe have not won, with me they have lost a long time customer, since Premiere 3 and AE 4. I stuck with them when their products were considered Mickey Mouse, when no serious editor would admit using Premiere.
They did a great job bringing the products up to where they are today, my cs6 is rock solid and will do me very well until someone else catches up even if that takes 10 years.
I will not rent software that I can never own. So Adobe has had their last penny from me. is that winning? Do they care? The CEO has his Shareholders drooling and has cashed in his own shares so hes won ok, but I think history will show him as the architect of the demise of the company. He has already what must be one of the biggest fanclubs in the world and I believe there are many Adobe employees that think the strategy to be distasteful, shortsighted and wrong but arent allowed to say what they think.
Shame. Annoying, move on.



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Gary Huff
Re: So is that it - have Adobe won?
on Aug 18, 2014 at 10:43:54 pm

[Billy Payn] "So Adobe has had their last penny from me. is that winning? Do they care?"

If they replaced you with three other people, then yes it is winning, and no, they probably don't care.


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Billy Payn
Re: So is that it - have Adobe won?
on Aug 19, 2014 at 11:13:10 am

Rhetorical question?



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Joe Brooks
Re: So is that it - have Adobe won?
on Aug 18, 2014 at 10:43:06 pm

I've been watching this discussion forum since Adobe made changes to its licenses but this is the first time I have tried to comment.

I'm on CS 5.5 Master and that is where I will stay, I have no intention of ever moving to Creative Cloud because of the licensing issues. I will not rent software, it just isn't an option, so I guess that means Adobe and I have to agree to disagree on the issue and I'll have to find tools I like less and get on with my life.

It's like Reagan said of Democrats, "I didn't leave the Democratic party, the Democratic party left me". That's how I feel about Adobe with its new licensing - I was happy with our relationship the way it was, they were the ones who decided to change it. I'm still playing by the same rules, and I'm here waiting if they decide they want to come back and give me the license I want.

On the one hand I feel a bit of loss knowing I'll have to start using other tools as CS starts to show its age, yet on the other I know that when a company makes heavy handed decisions like this based purely on market performance and money that they've probably peaked anyway, so it's a good time to get of the train and start nurturing other businesses with my money. Adobe is the company they are today because we invested time, energy, and money into them ... and like the gods, they too can pass into history when the faithful stop believing.

It is what it is, I guess.

I upgraded to the newest every few years and I don't think Adobe really considered people like me who would be just as happy with older versions, really, as I am with CS5.5 or CS6. I just don't do work that is that complicated, even my video editing is pretty straight forward, and as long as I have the O.S. and a computer that can keep running CS 5.5 I'm in business and happy as a clam. If I were in a position where I had to collaborate with other artists it would start to become a problem, but since I don't, it won't.

Adobe's disc authoring issue is a problem too.

Anyway, I don't know what all that means ... I'm just another peon user who generally liked Adobe, doesn't need all the latest and greatest features, who is perfectly happy to keep using CS 5.5 until ... well, whenever. I might end up being one of those weirdo's that is still using a 20 year old computer to do stuff lol, I don't think they'll quit making hard drives anytime soon, I guess maybe the motherboard could go bad.

So, to answer the question, I suppose I'm sort of resigned to the fact that Adobe is not going to change back to its old licensing, so I'm keeping an eye out for new tools and new ways of doing things in the future and evolving as things change. So far I have not hit any roadblocks that are so significant that I have to make any major changes, but eventually I'll probably have to move to a new workflow to replace Premiere, AfterEffects, etc. I think Photoshop, Illustrator, InDesign, etc, basically do what I need them to do and I don't think they will become an issue as fast as Premiere will.


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Rich Rubasch
Re: So is that it - have Adobe won?
on Aug 19, 2014 at 5:30:48 pm

It's like Reagan said of Democrats, "I didn't leave the Democratic party, the Democratic party left me". That's how I feel about Adobe with its new licensing -


Exactly....well put, Ronnie. How I feel as well.

Rich Rubasch
Tilt Media Inc.
Video Production, Post, Studio Sound Stage
Founder/President/Editor/Designer/Animator
http://www.tiltmedia.com


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Chris Pettit
Re: So is that it - have Adobe won?
on Aug 18, 2014 at 10:54:33 pm

Well, a sizable percentage of their former customers are no longer giving them money, and may never do so again. Doesn't sound like winning to me. But it all depends on how profitable their "take it or shove it" gamble is long term.

I'm still amazed that they would rather have a portion of the industry resent them and no longer trust them rather than compromise in any way. Surely they are at least somewhat concerned about all these former customers begging for some other company come along and take their money right? Personally I have a lot of software dollars to spend. I've been saving up, if you know what I mean.

I'll use CS6 while I wait for alternatives for particular software. I know more people doing that than subscribing, at least in my part of the world.

In the meantime, not much new to talk about, particularly since Adobe appears to have batted down the hatches.

BTW (Just paid for the C4D 16 upgrade, and guess what it has now? 3D camera tracking. Hmmmm...One less thing I need Adobe for....)


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Ken Zukin
Re: So is that it - have Adobe won?
on Aug 19, 2014 at 1:04:26 am

Guess I'm in the minority -- I'm a current subscriber & quite happy with the Company/Software. I subcontract out all my graphics so it'd be nice if there were additional levels of pricing -- but $50/ month isn't unreasonable...


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Chris Pettit
Re: So is that it - have Adobe won?
on Aug 19, 2014 at 1:14:36 am

[Ken Zukin] " but $50/ month isn't unreasonable..."

Hi Ken. I realize you may be late to the game in terms of the debate on this forum, but price has never been the primary issue. That issue has been put to bed many times before

If you go back and look at the archives in this forum you'll see that the issues are much more complex than that.


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Walter Soyka
Re: So is that it - have Adobe won?
on Aug 19, 2014 at 1:17:36 am

[Ken Zukin] "Guess I'm in the minority -- I'm a current subscriber & quite happy with the Company/Software. I subcontract out all my graphics so it'd be nice if there were additional levels of pricing -- but $50/ month isn't unreasonable..."

I'm also very happy with Creative Cloud. I understand the POV of those who are philosophically opposed to renting software, but I think CC has been a very good, practical choice for my own business, and I'm well pleased with the direction the desktop apps are headed.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Gary Huff
Re: So is that it - have Adobe won?
on Aug 19, 2014 at 2:27:35 pm

[Walter Soyka] "I think CC has been a very good, practical choice for my own business, and I'm well pleased with the direction the desktop apps are headed."

Ditto.


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Steve Connor
Re: So is that it - have Adobe won?
on Aug 19, 2014 at 2:59:05 pm

[Gary Huff] "[Walter Soyka] "I think CC has been a very good, practical choice for my own business, and I'm well pleased with the direction the desktop apps are headed."

Ditto."


+1 I don't care about rental, I want the best tools in my toolbox.

No sig on my posts as it's apparently very old fashioned


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Andrew Kimery
Re: So is that it - have Adobe won?
on Aug 19, 2014 at 5:39:31 pm

[Steve Connor] "+1 I don't care about rental, I want the best tools in my toolbox."

Using CC is generating more revenue for me than abstaining from CC would so while I can't say if Adobe is winning or not I can say I'm certainly winning by using Adobe CC.


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Rainer Schubert
Re: So is that it - have Adobe won?
on Aug 19, 2014 at 3:34:45 am

Hi Chris

There was a Camera tracking Tool before the new C4D Release 16: CineCAT - http://www.viscoda.com/en/
(Camera Tracking directly in C4D)
May be you can use it for older projects/versions of C4D.
(I have many projects in older Versions, which can´t easily be upgradet to newer versions...)


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Chris Pettit
Re: So is that it - have Adobe won?
on Aug 19, 2014 at 4:46:33 am

[Rainer Schubert] "There was a Camera tracking Tool before the new C4D Release 16: CineCAT - http://www.viscoda.com/en/
(Camera Tracking directly in C4D)
May be you can use it for older projects/versions of C4D.
(I have many projects in older Versions, which can´t easily be upgradet to newer versions...)"


Thanks Rainer! I was unaware of this other option as well.

I'm pretty damn excited about the implications of 3D Camera tracking directly in C4D. The entire paradigm of "round trip" connectivity between 3D software and Adobe's rented software just lost value again, more reasons to leave Adobe.

I felt completely left out when Adobe/Maxon announced a big breakthrough in real-time C4D-AE pipelines, but maybe not so much, eh?


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Rainer Schubert
Re: So is that it - have Adobe won?
on Aug 19, 2014 at 10:12:48 am

Bridge between C4D & AE was indeed one of the most interesting things, they implemented in CC in my eyes.
And I was very excited, when I heard of it - The more disappointed when noticed that only available as rent-software
But I also heard, it´s very slow and not as stable as it should be.

Btw. Meanwhile I own (the unlimited right to use) XParticles also and yes - it´s phantastic...
Maybe I will also invest in Krakatoa, which gives a lot of possibilities in combination with that.


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Walter Soyka
Re: So is that it - have Adobe won?
on Aug 19, 2014 at 11:19:13 am

[Chris Pettit] "The entire paradigm of "round trip" connectivity between 3D software and Adobe's rented software just lost value again, more reasons to leave Adobe. I felt completely left out when Adobe/Maxon announced a big breakthrough in real-time C4D-AE pipelines, but maybe not so much, eh?"

I thought that CINEWARE would be useless -- until I used it. In my opinion, CINEWARE is not right for every project because local workstation rendering is not right for every project, but it's an innovative approach and it's a rare example of cross-vendor cooperation.

CINEWARE greatly improves the fluidity between 3D and comp, and this ease of interplay opens up new creative opportunities. It's easy to dismiss without having used it -- I did! -- but CINEWARE allows easy iteration, and easy iteration means more iteration, and more iteration leads to better results.


[Rainer Schubert] "Bridge between C4D & AE was indeed one of the most interesting things, they implemented in CC in my eyes. And I was very excited, when I heard of it - The more disappointed when noticed that only available as rent-software But I also heard, it´s very slow and not as stable as it should be. "

I think "slow" is an unfair criticism -- the point of the system is to render and composite on the fly, and we all know that 3D rendering has no upper bound on time. CINEWARE just extends the tweak-render-wait-evaluate-tweak-render-wait-evaluate iterative pattern in any 3D application into comp, too.

I'm not sure what you mean by "not as stable as it should be" but I'd agree with the idea that CINEWARE is still immature. That doesn't bother me yet as it's still new.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Rainer Schubert
Re: So is that it - have Adobe won?
on Aug 19, 2014 at 12:11:24 pm

[Walter Soyka] "I think "slow" is an unfair criticism -- the point of the system is to render and composite on the fly, ...
application into comp, too.

I clearly understand the intent to establish CINEWARE. But - never tested myself - as I heard & read, it´s not very smooth to handle.
Especially when the 3D projects become a little bit complex or extensions are needed.
Sure - the idea is a good one, but if I trust the users, there is a lot room for improvement.
For the moment I use the old fashioned way, if I have to use AE & C4D.
May be slower than CINEWARE but it fits my needs.
I use Blender instead where ever I can. It has all build in. Very useful but - sigh - not for all of my projects.
And I don´t like to do my 3D work there (Modeling).
But sometimes I simply import the ready projects.

[Walter Soyka] ...but I'd agree with the idea that CINEWARE is still immature. That doesn't bother me yet as it's still new.
...immature. OK, agree (And, yes, I´m not a user - My knowledge is based on others experience - to be fair)
Let´s see if it ever becomes mature & what competition will do.


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Walter Soyka
Re: So is that it - have Adobe won?
on Aug 19, 2014 at 12:26:41 pm

[Rainer Schubert] "I clearly understand the intent to establish CINEWARE. But - never tested myself - as I heard & read, it´s not very smooth to handle. Especially when the 3D projects become a little bit complex or extensions are needed. Sure - the idea is a good one, but if I trust the users, there is a lot room for improvement. "

To clarify my original point, CINEWARE's speed is bottlenecked by C4D's renderer. CINEWARE is meant to reduce workflow friction, not render times.

Yes, there is undoubtedly room for improvement.


[Rainer Schubert] "Let´s see... what competition will do."

The Foundry's acquisition of Luxology and thus Modo is very interesting to me, as is NUKE STUDIO. Taken together, I am very hopeful for the solid integration among MODO, NUKE and HIERO that The Foundry could be capable of.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Rainer Schubert
Re: So is that it - have Adobe won?
on Aug 19, 2014 at 3:14:25 pm

[Walter Soyka] "To clarify my original point, CINEWARE's speed is bottlenecked by C4D's renderer. CINEWARE is meant to reduce workflow friction, not render times."

Sure, I know. I don´t meant the render times (I have an idea of the bottleneck).
If you have a complex scene in C4D or using exotic extensions (like XStream) you will not be able to use CW in a useful way.
You will also have to wait extremely long for Screen refreshing or scene loading during your work. Or there are breaks/crashes.

And, yes, the foundry looks very interesting... also exicted about, what´s going on/coming up there.


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Herbert van der wegen
Re: So is that it - have Adobe won?
on Aug 19, 2014 at 5:55:22 am

Although for my teaching I still have to use Adobe software, at least for my freelance and personal work I have moved completely away from Adobe. I merely use my CS6 license as a conversion tool for Adobe proprietary formats I encounter in my work. My migration to alternatives actually began six months before Adobe announced the subscription only model. It was tough initially, because I used all of Adobe's software for my freelance work. I also instruct students in all Adobe software.

I replaced Photoshop with Photoline. For digital painting and texture work I use Krita and Manga Studio. For vector work Xara Designer Pro and InkScape. Photoline has a very nice app link feature that allows me to send vector layers straight to InkScape, and bitmap layers to Krita - I make & save changes, and they update automatically in Photoline. The pipeline is comparable to Photoshop smart objects, albeit with some limitations (and some advantages as well).

The severely limited and awkward 3d features in Photoshop I never used anyway: I work in Blender, 3dCoat, Lightwave, and other tools like Substance Designer. For motion and object tracking and compositing Blender is very powerful with its node based approach.

Premiere I replaced with (initially) Lightworks, but for my editing the newest version of Resolve is more than enough - and excellent colour grading as well. After Effects is still a bit of a sore wound, though - a combination of aforementioned tools work for me to heal this somewhat, but I am still on the lookout for a complete replacement.

I left Adobe's web tools a long time ago. Dreamweaver just cannot compete with the likes of Netbeans, Macaw, and other tools. Muse is a joke (in my professional opinion). Flash I replaced with other tools such as Anime Studio for 2d character animation. I switched to html5/javascript to cater for web interactivity and casual games development.

One of the things I like about my new suite of tools is the part open source software plays - it's quite refreshing to be able to use free and open applications instead of closed and expensive ones. The communities have also been very friendly and inviting. Mind, I chose those open source tools because they fit very well in my current workflow, not because they are free. Blender is exceptionally powerful, as is Krita.

Aside from the software I chose, I noticed more and more alternatives are entering the market place - Serif announced a suite of Adobe replacements aimed at design professionals on the mac last month (their Illustrator replacement looks great). Small companies are providing a slew of inexpensive alternatives that, although not quite fleshed out, may very well become a thorn in Adobe's side/near future.

More choice is good. We need more alternatives - BETTER alternatives than Adobe software, most of which still adheres to very inefficient and old-fashioned paradigms. And it is happening all over the place now!

And yes, there is quite a bit of discontent among my students and the colleagues I work with as well - they ask me about alternatives on a regular basis. Quite a few dislike the subscription model, and are looking for a way out. If they ask, I provide methods of refuge from the Adobe hegemony.

/*----------------------------------------------------*/
System: Win7 64bit - i7 920@3.6Ghz, p6t Deluxe v1, 48gb (6x8gb RipjawsX), ATI 7970 3gb, EVGA 590 3GB, Revodrive X2 240gb, e-mu 1820. Screens: 2 x Samsung s27a850ds 2560x1440, HP 1920x1200 in portrait mode


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Florian Sepp
Re: So is that it - have Adobe won?
on Aug 19, 2014 at 10:01:16 am

well .... all besides the big players at adobe have lost.

adobe has lost 75% of their turnover

we have lost coice or freedom or time spend in learning programs...more or less different reasons for everyone.

even those that are happy with CC have lost. as a lot of former adobe users got alienated working together gets more complicated and workintensive then before. and less turnover will mean less developement sooner or later.

only those few big players that where able to hype the wallstreet to make the stock expensive. and then sold it to make personal profit.... they won.
I dont realy think they care about adobes market in some years, they just cared about their wallets.

I am not shure what will happen, but it is not over jet.

never the less there might be one good developement come from all this. more room for competition.

best regards
Florian

Florian Sepp visual arts
http://www.floriansepp.com


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Ryan Holmes
Re: So is that it - have Adobe won?
on Aug 19, 2014 at 10:45:55 pm

[Florian Sepp] "adobe has lost 75% of their turnover"

Do you have any source for this claim? I'd be very interested to read about Adobe's churn rate from CS models to the CC models.

[Ken Zukin] "Guess I'm in the minority -- I'm a current subscriber & quite happy with the Company/Software. I subcontract out all my graphics so it'd be nice if there were additional levels of pricing -- but $50/ month isn't unreasonable..."

No, I don't think you are. I think it's more that historically this forum has more posters that fall on the "CC is not for me" side than users who do use it and post here. There are a few notable exceptions in here like Walter or Gary. I've also used it since early 2013 and have had no problems with it. It's been a very good solution for our small shop.

[Joe Brooks] "It's like Reagan said of Democrats, "I didn't leave the Democratic party, the Democratic party left me". That's how I feel about Adobe with its new licensing - I was happy with our relationship the way it was, they were the ones who decided to change it."

I know people felt the same way in 2011 when FCPX was released. As much complaining and petition signing as we did it didn't change the direction Apple wanted to go. So we were ultimately left with 2 choices - get on the FCPX train or get off. Some have gotten on and others jumped off. The Adobe situation seems analogous. And as we've seen with FCP7, software can have quite a useful life after it's been terminated (thinking of CS5.5 or CS6 here as well). But you're right....the day will come when people have to move on to something else. Ultimately, I'm glad to see 3 viable competitors on the market. 15 years ago, or even 10 that wasn't the case.

Ryan Holmes
http://www.ryanholmes.me
@CutColorPost


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Florian Sepp
Re: So is that it - have Adobe won?
on Aug 20, 2014 at 9:01:01 am

[Ryan Holmes] "Do you have any source for this claim? I'd be very interested to read about Adobe's churn rate from CS models to the CC models."

it was net profit:

from 229 m$ in Q4 2012
to under 30 m$ in Q1 2014

http://www.economist.com/news/business/21599370-adobes-bold-embrace-computi...

Florian Sepp visual arts
http://www.floriansepp.com


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Ryan Holmes
Re: So is that it - have Adobe won?
on Aug 20, 2014 at 7:35:25 pm

[Florian Sepp] "from 229 m$ in Q4 2012
to under 30 m$ in Q1 2014"


Those numbers are comparing two completely different business models - perpetual license vs. subscription. I think a more fair argument for the "Adobe is losing from profit" side would be to compare Q3 2013 with Q3 2014 as both of those quarters would fall directly under their current subscription model. Adobe didn't go subscription only until Summer 2013 (May or June if I remember correctly). So they have barely a year's worth of data to compare and forecast with.

However, if the Bloomberg graph is accurate their profits during the last 3 quarters of subscription based business model appear to be falling. And that, I agree, is a bad trend.

Ryan Holmes
http://www.ryanholmes.me
@CutColorPost


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Rainer Schubert
Re: So is that it - have Adobe won?
on Aug 21, 2014 at 12:26:07 am

Additional to the Info Graphic:
Nearby Half (till Q3/13 more) of their profit is still made with PERPETUAL (CS-) licenses!


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Florian Sepp
Re: So is that it - have Adobe won?
on Aug 21, 2014 at 10:54:30 pm

[Ryan Holmes] "Those numbers are comparing two completely different business models - perpetual license vs. subscription."
yes they are and it is absolutely fair to compare them. no one forced adobe to go rent only. so they basicaly threw away 3 quaters of ther net profit. the money they earn from cc is not better or worth more in any way. besides the fact that i dont like the forced renting (i would like to have the choice) I don't think that, judging from the numbers we have right now the move is a success. And I could imagine there are a lot of people at adobe that see it that way. they just can't change it, because "unfortunately" the markets are to euphorical about it. it will either have to work out (I doupt that it is gona be a great success soon) or go down badly. and that might be beificial for the users or not. we will see.

best regards
Florian

Florian Sepp visual arts
http://www.floriansepp.com


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Richard Herd
Re: So is that it - have Adobe won?
on Aug 19, 2014 at 7:26:01 pm

It depends on how the argument is construed. I still hold the position (taken from someone else around here mostly) that Adobe CC competes against earlier versions of itself. In that way yes Adobe is winning. The software itself is excellent. Where I work, the accounting department won't change from "capital" to "rental," although I continue to argue in favor of renting CC.







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Ryan Holmes
Re: So is that it - have Adobe won?
on Aug 22, 2014 at 1:55:34 am

[Richard Herd] " I still hold the position (taken from someone else around here mostly) that Adobe CC competes against earlier versions of itself. In that way yes Adobe is winning."

This is also how I would judge them - comparing similar business models.

[Florian Sepp] " so they basicaly threw away 3 quaters of ther net profit. the money they earn from cc is not better or worth more in any way."

This isn't exactly true. Adobe's profits will slide because they are transitioning away from boxed-versions of it's software. The CC model will take time (years?) to grow a subscriber base (already at 1.4 million - source) to as a substantial size as the previous business model enjoyed. And keep in mind that the previous business model was in place for just over 30 years (Adobe was founded in 1982)!

Additionally, Adobe's operating expenses have kicked up about 10% as they increased their sales and marketing campaigns (source). As they seek to establish CC they'll need to spend money getting the word out, explaining, advertising, and offering various CC packages.

[Florian Sepp] "it will either have to work out (I doupt that it is gona be a great success soon) or go down badly. and that might be beificial for the users or not. "

Any future where we have less competition in the photo/video/print space is bad for us. So I have no problem with people not liking the CC model and avoiding it for any number of reasons, but I do question people who want to see Adobe crash and burn because of their CC model. (Florian - I'm not insinuating that you said that or meant that with your post....I'm just stating that as your post sparked that thought and I've seen people wish for the demise of Adobe because of their licensing model choice).

Ryan Holmes
http://www.ryanholmes.me
@CutColorPost


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Steve Connor
Re: So is that it - have Adobe won?
on Aug 22, 2014 at 1:25:23 pm

So how may of you who currently subscribe to CC would buy it if Adobe added perpetual licensing back?

I wouldn't

No sig on my posts as it's apparently very old fashioned


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Ryan Holmes
Re: So is that it - have Adobe won?
on Aug 22, 2014 at 2:28:00 pm

[Steve Connor] "So how may of you who currently subscribe to CC would buy it if Adobe added perpetual licensing back?"

In my situation I was essentially on de facto subscription even under the CS series. I upgraded at each version. So, for me, there's very little difference in experience between CS and CC.

Just my experience....

Ryan Holmes
http://www.ryanholmes.me
@CutColorPost


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David Mathis
Re: So is that it - have Adobe won?
on Aug 24, 2014 at 1:19:18 am

I would considering subscribing if a buyout option was available. For now I am considering other options. Nothing personal just a business decision.


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Gabe Strong
Re: So is that it - have Adobe won?
on Aug 21, 2014 at 8:08:16 am

Not sure if Adobe will 'win' or 'lose'. I just know they had just won me as a customer and they
'Lost' me by going CC only. Motion does enough AE type stuff for me.....FCP X, FCP 7,
resolve 11 (which is kind of a cross between FCP X and 7) and CS6 handle what I need to do.
It would be a bad business decision for me to go CC.

On a related note, I had an interesting situation with a couple longtime clients where they send
me logos to animate or similar for the end of their spot. A couple tried to send me CC files and I put
them on notice that I do not now, nor will in the future, accept CC files. They got me a CS6
version and told me they have been having this 'non acceptance of CC' issue with
a lot with other vendors. So my guess is, there are plenty of people who will move on
with CC and be happy and productive. There will be others who would have been happy
to stay with Adobe but will take different paths. They make a business decision and
so do I. Nothing personal, I'm just looking after my bottom line just as they are.

Gabe Strong
G-Force Productions
http://www.gforcevideo.com


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Tenchi Muyo
Re: So is that it - have Adobe won?
on Sep 26, 2014 at 3:10:07 pm
Last Edited By Tenchi Muyo on Sep 26, 2014 at 3:20:01 pm

My first Adobe program was PS CS5, then i upgaded to the Production Premium CS 5.5 and got the FREE upgrade to Production Premium CS 6

Later i bought Adobe Acrobat XI PRO and paid a lots of €,
after i think about it - i talked to the Adobe Support and canceled my order without problems.

I got a refund - so i moved to the Master Collection with an upgrade.
(Acrobat X Pro (was ok for me), Indesign and Dreamweaver & Fireworks i always wanted.

Now i have a lots of video tutorials and books for this collection.

I will never move to the CC!
But if Adobe release a new Creative Suite - then i will do this step.


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