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Renting Furniture

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Chris Pettit
Renting Furniture
on Jul 29, 2014 at 2:17:50 am

This has been floating around for a little while, but what the heck, made me laugh:



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Andrew Kimery
Re: Renting Furniture
on Jul 29, 2014 at 5:13:46 am

I thought it had gotten quiet in here.


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Ryan Holmes
Re: Renting Furniture
on Jul 29, 2014 at 4:21:13 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "I thought it had gotten quiet in here."

So I'm wondering....have we reached the point where this forum begins to pivot the way FCPX or Not: The Debate forum did? The fist year or so of X's release people were in their decrying it, signing petitions, complaining, and arguing about the software. Then after everyone realized this is the new normal the detractors moved on, and those that remained began discussing other aspects of the software, the company, etc.

I noticed this forum has gotten a good bit quieter in the last month or so, since Adobe had it's CC 2014 announcement. Is this forum going through the same transition?

Ryan Holmes
http://www.ryanholmes.me
@CutColorPost


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Renting Furniture
on Jul 29, 2014 at 6:10:08 pm

no. we're all in the long grass preparing a nuclear assault with hoarded articles from the motley fool and fortune outlining that the adobe numbers are horrible fakes based on dodgy math.

but it's a really hot summer and there are two bank holidays in august so we're pencilling it all in for september.

The war will never end as long as someone writes a critical article we can extensively quote from.

Or alternatively the creative cloud servers they're running with welded toshiba drives from under an abandoned bridge in vietnam get dosed with river water again and the whole service falls over. we'd go to town there too.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Gary Huff
Re: Renting Furniture
on Jul 29, 2014 at 7:28:59 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "e're all in the long grass preparing a nuclear assault with hoarded articles from the motley fool and fortune outlining that the adobe numbers are horrible fakes based on dodgy math."

The real truth is even deeper than that.

There is no Adobe.

All those moments you think you've been editing a video in Premiere, altering a photograph in Photoshop, or organizing your library in Lightroom?

You've been sitting in front of a blank, empty screen...the whole time.


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Ryan Holmes
Re: Renting Furniture
on Jul 29, 2014 at 7:30:38 pm

[Gary Huff] "There is no Adobe."

So this is basically The Matrix? There is no spoon?

Ryan Holmes
http://www.ryanholmes.me
@CutColorPost


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Renting Furniture
on Jul 29, 2014 at 9:29:21 pm

As long as I get to be Neo. Chris is probably Morpheus, and Ricardo and the rest of the guys are knocking around on the Nebuchadnezzar.

http://adobe2014.tumblr.com/

If Neo was annoyed with CC, Neo would have written that. I'm just saying.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Ricardo Marty
Re: Renting Furniture
on Jul 30, 2014 at 1:44:24 am

Ricardo and the rest of the guys are knocking around on the Nebuchadnezzar.

Only if i get trinity

ricardo marty


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Gary Huff
Re: Renting Furniture
on Jul 30, 2014 at 2:11:02 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "not. a. problem."

That's not Trinity, that's Persephone.

Ricardo can have Trinity. ;-)


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Renting Furniture
on Jul 30, 2014 at 4:00:19 pm

I know. I just bagsied Belluci there. you can have trinity, the ship, superpowers and kung fu. I'll take Belluci.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Gary Huff
Re: Renting Furniture
on Jul 30, 2014 at 5:57:29 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "I'll take Belluci."

Already called dibs.


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Steve Connor
Re: Renting Furniture
on Jul 29, 2014 at 8:22:26 pm

[Gary Huff] "You've been sitting in front of a blank, empty screen...the whole time.
"


So Aindreas is "the one"?

Steve Connor

Hoping to become a pedant


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Ryan Holmes
Re: Renting Furniture
on Jul 29, 2014 at 8:28:32 pm

[Steve Connor] "So Aindreas is "the one"?"

Does that mean that Gary Huff is Agent Smith? :-) Or do we have the roles backwards.....?

Ryan Holmes
http://www.ryanholmes.me
@CutColorPost


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Gary Huff
Re: Renting Furniture
on Jul 29, 2014 at 8:32:49 pm

[Ryan Holmes] "Does that mean that Gary Huff is Agent Smith? :-) Or do we have the roles backwards.....?"

Oracle. Would you like a cookie?


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Jeff Kay
Re: Renting Furniture
on Jul 29, 2014 at 8:56:12 pm
Last Edited By Jeff Kay on Jul 29, 2014 at 8:57:13 pm

My first thought when they had the whole CC shift was that it would be something tolerated only because of the price and library of software. And I think that's where we're at now. Even if you hate the idea of rental only (I do), it takes a special kind to not see or deliberately deny the value of the package. Is a cost of 6 grand over 10 years actually horrendous? What is you total overhead cost for those 10 years? Its less than the price of having a phone line put in. (I've also seen several office spaces rent all of their furniture)

And that's where we are at currently, everyone is passively tolerating it.

Now if they raise the monthly price, I hope you remembered where you left your pitchfork.


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Gary Huff
Re: Renting Furniture
on Jul 29, 2014 at 9:08:20 pm

[Jeff Kay] "Now if they raise the monthly price, I hope you remembered where you left your pitchfork."

Which will happen if it goes to $75 per month in 2025...like Amazon going to $99 for Prime after all these years.


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Ryan Holmes
Re: Renting Furniture
on Jul 29, 2014 at 9:31:02 pm

[Gary Huff] "Which will happen if it goes to $75 per month in 2025...like Amazon going to $99 for Prime after all these years."

I don't know about you, but I'm not ditching Amazon Prime just because they raised the price $20. It's still a great value if you buy heavily through Amazon (plus the movies/TV/Kindle/Music stuff you get with it).

Same goes for Adobe. A slight increase in price won't make me grab the pitchfork. But I will concede their is always an amount that the market will bear, go over it and you'll lose business. I don't think Adobe's hit that mark yet....

Ryan Holmes
http://www.ryanholmes.me
@CutColorPost


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Renting Furniture
on Jul 29, 2014 at 9:51:48 pm

there is a thing on profitability tho - they have gigantic wall street leeway here on the implicit understanding where the number will go. once its a stable subscription, its going to obey that universal law in spades given the three or four near monopolies in pocket.

Wall street expects growth stocks to grow, stable stocks to divest, and subscriptions to move as hard as they can year over year. that's gravity.

In around 18-24 months, one way or another, there is going to be no current OS functioning CS6. Adobe are going to be a software subscription service.

Hostage to fate, but you'd think on profit recovery they'll need to push it into the area of 65-70 by 2018.
If the price doesn't go up 3.99 or so (8/9% increase) in 2015 for new entrants - with say two year grandfather lock in for current subscribers - then I'm a banana.

the point is it's going to exceed inflation and any increase in your fees every single time after that.
Adobe subscription is going to inflate relative to your financials continuously over time. Plato didn't call it a slow bleed for nothing.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Chris Pettit
Re: Renting Furniture
on Jul 29, 2014 at 9:50:49 pm

[Jeff Kay] "Even if you hate the idea of rental only (I do), it takes a special kind to not see or deliberately deny the value of the package. Is a cost of 6 grand over 10 years actually horrendous?"

No, it's not. I found the cartoon funny and spot on about renting "furniture", but the cost is not, and never has been the issue. I think CS upgrades costs were too cheap as well, given what we get with the whole package.


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Jeff Kay
Re: Renting Furniture
on Jul 29, 2014 at 10:09:39 pm
Last Edited By Jeff Kay on Jul 29, 2014 at 10:12:25 pm

[Chris Pettit] "the cost is not, and never has been the issue. I think CS upgrades costs were too cheap as well, given what we get with the whole package."

It has been brought up before, though I hold skepticism as to whether the ones who brought it up would actually be paying more.

The CS upgrade costs did seem rather low compared to competitors (Avid 6 was still $2500, though I forget the upgrade cost and Avid might not be the best comparison), but unless someone put off upgrading for several years the CC cost is less than what it was for CS (I did the math a while back, but it escapes me now).

It just seems confused for something to talk about how the cloud is "making it rain" on the software business in that light (I suppose cutting out resellers could do this, but is that move offensive to the end user?). I get the idea behind the comic and that its not serious satire, but what would have made me chuckle if at the end its someone showing it to an architect and the architect asking why they didn't care years ago when autodesk did the same thing first.


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Jim Wiseman
Re: Renting Furniture
on Jul 30, 2014 at 12:03:41 am

It's not the cost nearly as much as losing access if you stop paying. I think this point has been made before.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.1.1, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.5, Premiere Pro CS 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Blackmagic Teranex, Avid MC, 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1 TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD


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Gary Huff
Re: Renting Furniture
on Jul 30, 2014 at 2:28:43 am

[Jim Wiseman] " It's not the cost nearly as much as losing access if you stop paying. I think this point has been made before."

Yes, for all those precious video clips that go "poof!"


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Dave LaRonde
Re: Renting Furniture
on Jul 30, 2014 at 5:14:20 pm
Last Edited By Dave LaRonde on Jul 30, 2014 at 5:17:08 pm

Cloud storage may be handy, but I don't think anyone would rely on it as the sole repository for media files. That's just asking for trouble.

No, it's the inability to read project files that really hurts. You might be able to skate by if Premiere's all you use, but who doesn't have project files created in other Adobe applications?

Dave LaRonde
Promotion Producer
KGAN (CBS) & KFXA (Fox) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Gary Huff
Re: Renting Furniture
on Jul 30, 2014 at 6:01:52 pm

[Dave LaRonde] "ut who doesn't have project files created in other Adobe applications?"

Which would just be After Effects. And there's a solution for that.


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Dave LaRonde
Re: Renting Furniture
on Jul 30, 2014 at 6:21:20 pm
Last Edited By Dave LaRonde on Jul 30, 2014 at 11:14:11 pm

Don't tell me Motion is adequate. That rules out about 85% of the computers on Planet Earth.

Dave LaRonde
Promotion Producer
KGAN (CBS) & KFXA (Fox) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Renting Furniture
on Jul 29, 2014 at 9:31:07 pm

wait - I just replied. yes basically. I'm the only one who made a Zolaesque tumblr.

checkmate universe.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Chris Pettit
Re: Renting Furniture
on Jul 29, 2014 at 10:13:21 pm

[Ryan Holmes] "I noticed this forum has gotten a good bit quieter in the last month or so, since Adobe had it's CC 2014 announcement. Is this forum going through the same transition?"

Maybe. I know one thing: there are a lot of us out there using CS6 till it dies a slow death while watching the horizon very carefully for replacement products, particularly alternatives to AE. For me, if and when AE has real competition, I'll have left Adobe forever. Could be sooner that I thought.


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Jim Wiseman
Re: Renting Furniture
on Jul 30, 2014 at 12:10:57 am
Last Edited By Jim Wiseman on Jul 30, 2014 at 12:13:05 am

So happy I don't need AE. CS6 for just a few things until my current (new) computers die. Premiere mostly for playback and selection of shots from almost any format, transcode to ProResHQ (Premiere's greatest strength, many codecs) and using other software to finish. Photoshop, I'll always have something that will run CS6 or other earlier versions. Glad I'm fully in documentary mode now. Bye, bye, Adobe.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.1.1, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.5, Premiere Pro CS 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Blackmagic Teranex, Avid MC, 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1 TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD


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Gary Huff
Re: Renting Furniture
on Jul 30, 2014 at 2:29:16 am

[Chris Pettit] "there are a lot of us out there using CS6 till it dies a slow death"

Hence why Adobe had to go subscription-only.


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Chris Pettit
Re: Renting Furniture
on Jul 30, 2014 at 3:25:51 am
Last Edited By Chris Pettit on Jul 30, 2014 at 3:29:19 am

[Gary Huff] "Hence why Adobe had to go subscription-only."

As usual, absolute nonsense Gary.

I would have paid for 2 upgrade cycles by now (since the removal of PLs) if it weren't for forced subscriptions for life.(I've paid for every upgrade, including point upgrades since the original CS). Adobe would have my money for EVERY upgrade in future, most likely until the end of my career if they weren't doing what their doing

But then you know that don't you?


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Gary Huff
Re: Renting Furniture
on Jul 30, 2014 at 2:13:09 pm

[Chris Pettit] "But then you know that don't you?"

Actually, I don't. Plenty of people here talk about skipping one or two version. Costs go up, software at this level is expensive, both to maintain and to include new features in. And yet, if Adobe was just going to maintain for a couple of upgrade cycles, kind of like the under-the-hood stuff for the video apps, this would have undoubtedly caused a lot here to skip upgrading, this making the status quo untenable.

And all I have is a simple assertion that you would have upgraded every cycle?


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Chris Pettit
Re: Renting Furniture
on Jul 30, 2014 at 2:48:36 pm

[Gary Huff] "And all I have is a simple assertion that you would have upgraded every cycle?"

And the fact that I've upgraded ever step of the way up till now. There's that.


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Florian Sepp
Re: Renting Furniture
on Jul 30, 2014 at 10:59:59 pm

I didn't upgrade every circle. but round about every second version. the first versions of adobe i have in my shelf are V3 (not CS) then V5 and so on ... till cs 2, 5, 6

so they made some pennies with me.

for v2014 i would have given them my money. especially considering the things i hear about Premiere.

even though they managed to reduce their profit to around 25% of what it was.....

http://www.economist.com/news/business/21599370-adobes-bold-embrace-computi...

.....they don't want my money.

I would consider this a bigger problem for adobe then for me.
not one of my colleagues changed to CC.

this is not through jet. what will hapen if stockholders realise that adobe will not make more money then bevor cc? and adobe will have to quadruple it to even get there. And just after that we will see if cc was the right dicisiion for adobe profit wise.

i actually got more relaxed about this, most propably like others.
that could be the reason this forum got more quiet.

best regards
Florian

Florian Sepp visual arts
http://www.floriansepp.com


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Chris Pettit
Re: Renting Furniture
on Jul 31, 2014 at 2:14:43 am

[Florian Sepp] "even though they managed to reduce their profit to around 25% of what it was...."

[Florian Sepp] ".....they don't want my money."

[Florian Sepp] " what will hapen if stockholders realise that adobe will not make more money then bevor cc?"

[Florian Sepp] "we will see if cc was the right dicisiion for adobe profit wise."

Yep. All true IMO. In the meantime, I'm getting more and more sure that I need to find a new motion graphics and composting tool that gets me completely out of AE instead of hoping that Adobe will be pressured to change it's mind about losing so many customers.

True alternatives don't exist yet. But given time, we'll see.

Signed: Morpheus (naive believer in things that don't yet exist and are otherwise unprovable)


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Jim Wiseman
Re: Renting Furniture
on Jul 31, 2014 at 4:41:50 am
Last Edited By Jim Wiseman on Jul 31, 2014 at 4:48:54 am

I've been upgrading since version 1 of PS and have every version of CS, primarily Production, since 4 including point releases. Before that was mostly FCP and M100, both of which I still use more than Premiere. (Moving to FCPX and Motion, and still like the latest version of M100 2.1.5 which runs fine on 10.9.4 and nMP up to 4K.) Also have two versions of CS Design, 5 and 5.5 for Acrobat Pro and InDesign, but mostly use it for PDF design and rework. In short they had me as a customer, and now they don't and won't until Permanent Licenses return.

You really don't care if your projects go "poof"? Must be high value. Or you love paying Adobe. Forever.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.1.1, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.5, Premiere Pro CS 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Blackmagic Teranex, Avid MC, 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1 TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD


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Richard Herd
Re: Renting Furniture
on Jul 30, 2014 at 3:22:09 pm

[Chris Pettit] "Adobe would have my money for EVERY upgrade in future, "

Is this irony? A little confused here, but then again i was considering this: an almost-ponzi scheme (reposted):

Let's suppose you used the price of CS6 as an investment in NASDAQ: ADBE on 8/19/2003 (the 52 week low) and let's suppose you sold that on 6/18/2014 (the 52-week high), (not counting interest accrued), you pay for 6.7 years of Creative Cloud.

$2500 @ $44.89/share is 55 shares sold at $73.08 share. Cash of $4069 at $50/month for CC is 81 months of CC. A more fancy person than me can figure a scheme where the monthly rental goes instead to NASDAQ:ADBE and then cash out every so often is banked as CC subscription.

Why not make this much more straightforward Adobe? All stock holders should receive complimentary Creative Cloud subscription.


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Chris Pettit
Re: Renting Furniture
on Jul 31, 2014 at 2:59:50 am

[Richard Herd] "Is this irony? A little confused here, but then again i was considering this: an almost-ponzi scheme (reposted):"

I have to concede, I'm personally not interested in math calculations or market speculations. My focus is simply on control of my work. Again: control of my work.

The problem with forced subscriptions has never been money, we're not talking about that much expense, at least until subscription rate go up substantially.

It's about Control. Access. Power.


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Richard Herd
Re: Renting Furniture
on Jul 31, 2014 at 3:27:17 pm

[Chris Pettit] "It's about Control. Access. Power."

At least we're getting somewhere. What makes you believe you had control, access, power (CAP) in the past? In order to re-gain those feelings of belief of CAP then ignoring both math and market conditions definitely cannot succeed in returning them (the feelings of beliefs of CAP).

Unless a 'creative' is working in isolation, the standard answers, repeated ad infinitum in here, are moot.

For folks like yourself (in my understanding of reading your posts), the real alternative is to embrace very specific market realities.


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Chris Pettit
Re: Renting Furniture
on Jul 31, 2014 at 5:04:41 pm

[Richard Herd] "What makes you believe you had control, access, power (CAP) in the past?"

If I decide to stop paying Adobe the software still works. If I have a slow year and want to curtail my software and hardware expenditures (haven't yet), the software still works. If I decide that Adobe's latest release is buggy and I want to wait to upgrade and not pay for it until I do, the software still works. If and when I retire, my software still works.

It's not a "feeling", it is (was) reality. If CAP with Adobe goes permanently away, and my guess at this point is that it probably already has (profitability and Wall Streets response to it over time being the remaining question mark), then I'm simply waiting (praying) for competitors to release alternative products, just like lots of other people. If competitors eventually release truly functional alternatives to apps like AE and ID for example, then we'll see how many people really like renting software or not. I'm starting to really look forward to that day given how Adobe has handled this whole mess.

I'm not ignoring market realities per se, I'm just not much of an expert.


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Dave LaRonde
Re: Renting Furniture
on Jul 31, 2014 at 5:42:35 pm
Last Edited By Dave LaRonde on Jul 31, 2014 at 5:50:12 pm

...and it would appear Adobe can't even get this rental stuff right.

Here's a warning from Tim Kurkowski of Adobe, entitled, "DO NOT install the After Effects 2014.0.1 (13.0.1) update":
https://forums.adobe.com/thread/1535941

Apparently a too-hastily-issued bug fix breaks the application. Tim writes, "Our apologies about this problem. We are upset that it occurred; it causes problems for you and reflects poorly on us."

No kiddin', Tim. One of the arguments given for rental was that software improvements could be issued as they became available. I don't recall any mention in that argument about issuing annual versions (e.g. CC 2014)... but it seems a fast bug fix to the current version was deemed necessary to shove out the door to fix the new version that in retrospect may have been too-hastily shoved out the door.

When you're attached to Creative Cloud like an umbilical, you assume there will be a certain level of greater competence and greater reliability. They don't seem to be happening. A situation like this could put you off wanting to rent, and make you cherish your last paid version all the more.

Not much money in it for Adobe with a situation like that.

Dave LaRonde
Promotion Producer
KGAN (CBS) & KFXA (Fox) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Gary Huff
Re: Renting Furniture
on Jul 31, 2014 at 5:49:54 pm

[Dave LaRonde] "...and it would appear Adobe can't even get this rental stuff right."

Has nothing to do with rental. But I realize Adobe's programmers can't be 100% perfect in their job like you are in yours, Dave.


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Dave LaRonde
Re: Renting Furniture
on Jul 31, 2014 at 6:30:22 pm

Ah, you're not baitin' me with that one, Mr. Huff...

No, my reasoning comes from the old adage, "haste makes waste".

Why did Adobe have to scramble to get out a fix to the newest CC version of AE? Apparently, there was a sufficiently-serious problem with it. The result of their haste: a bug fix that breaks the application. Now they have to issue a fix for the fix. Haste makes waste.

Well, why was there such a big problem with the original AE CC 2014 in the first place? Knowing what we know now, does the possibility exist that the AE development folks were pressued into having it ready by the announced release date, and had to scramble? I'd say the odds are pretty good on that one. The result: a version release with a big problem in it, requiring a bug fix. Haste makes waste.

Then, why have a new version AT ALL? Wasn't Adobe going to update applications when they were ready with an improvement? Wasn't that one of the ballyhooed advantagtes of the cloud? Why this preoccupation with a whole new version?

The new version didn't go from 64-bit to 128-bit. That would have been a good reason for a new version.
The new version didn't emerge, say, after the introduction of a new, vastly-cheaper, vastly-faster but vastly-different processor. That would have been a good reason for a new version.

No, it emerged because Adobe said so. A lame reason if you ask me.

You mentioned my 100% perfection. Let's look at Adobe's AE CC 2014 perfection:
First try at it -- a big enough problem to warrant a REALLY fast bug fix. Adobe's 0 for 1.
After the bug fix -- the application breaks. Adobe's now 0 for 2.
After the next bug fix -- stay tuned.

Naw, I don't expect perfection. But you'd think Adobe could have a success rate better than 33% -- at best -- after the introduction of a new software version.

If YOU have a success rate of 33% with your clients, you won't have clients very long. Their patience may run a bit thin.

So bait me all you want. I say you'll have a tough time presenting evidence that Adobe's actually GOOD at this Creative Cloud rental stuff.

Dave LaRonde
Promotion Producer
KGAN (CBS) & KFXA (Fox) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Gary Huff
Re: Renting Furniture
on Jul 31, 2014 at 6:42:12 pm

[Dave LaRonde] "No, my reasoning comes from the old adage, "haste makes waste"."

Platitudes.

[Dave LaRonde] "Why did Adobe have to scramble to get out a fix to the newest CC version of AE? Apparently, there was a sufficiently-serious problem with it. The result of their haste: a bug fix that breaks the application. Now they have to issue a fix for the fix. Haste makes waste."

Happens to everyone. Plus, you conveniently forget all the times that the haste did not make waste, and was thus applauded by all. "Haste makes waste" is simply something you can toss around when things go wrong. After all, what is the time difference between "haste" and "not-haste"? Cannot things slip through the cracks even when being methodical? Can people try to perfect so much that what they are working on never actually gets finished?

[Dave LaRonde] "After the bug fix -- the application breaks. Adobe's now 0 for 2."

Do you not understand what the issue is, or are you trying to make it sound worse than it is? Doesn't break the application. I just used 13.0.1 with Neat Video in order to denoise an hour-long video file and it worked just fine. I also used it to change the title for four lower thirds. So it broke the application? Are you being serious?

[Dave LaRonde] " I say you'll have a tough time presenting evidence that Adobe's actually GOOD at this Creative Cloud rental stuff."

That's fine. It's not for you anyway.


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Dave LaRonde
Re: Renting Furniture
on Jul 31, 2014 at 8:12:30 pm

Fine. Here's a straightforward question for you:

How would you evaluate the the quality of the job Adobe has done in terms of reliability and comparative lack of debilitating bugs for its Creative Cloud renters?

Dave LaRonde
Promotion Producer
KGAN (CBS) & KFXA (Fox) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Gary Huff
Re: Renting Furniture
on Jul 31, 2014 at 9:36:30 pm
Last Edited By Gary Huff on Jul 31, 2014 at 9:37:53 pm

[Dave LaRonde] "
How would you evaluate the the quality of the job Adobe has done in terms of reliability and comparative lack of debilitating bugs for its Creative Cloud renters?"


Funny, since you are not a Creative Cloud user, I don't know where you get these ideas. Are you merely skimming articles and filling in the rest with your own biases?

I would rate it as good as everyone else. There are bugs and instabilities in X, AVID, Lightworks, Vegas, and so on. I have not had one moment of the work I do disrupted by anything talked about on here. My apparently "broken" After Effects has now been used to generate six lower third graphics for the jobs I am currently working on. And do you understand what it means to have a new Preferences folder created? What would cause you to think that would "break" After Effects?

You don't use the Cloud, you don't seem to have have a strong grasp on how software operates internally, and you have a negative opinion on the robustness of the platform.

Well, in my experience, it's as robust as anything else I have used.

You still haven't explained where "haste" turns into "not-haste." Is it 3 days? A week? Month? How long should this bugfix have taken? Until there are no errors in the code at all? Maybe you should go to San Jose and show them how to do it right.


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Chris Pettit
Re: Renting Furniture
on Jul 31, 2014 at 5:51:36 pm

[Dave LaRonde] "it seems a fast bug fix to the current version was deemed necessary to shove out the door to fix the new version that in retrospect may have been too-hastily shoved out the door."

Yes, but don't forget that CC renters are on a higher plain of techno-being. (couldn't resist)


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Ryan Holmes
Re: Renting Furniture
on Jul 31, 2014 at 6:30:23 pm

[Dave LaRonde] "One of the arguments given for rental was that software improvements could be issued as they became available. I don't recall any mention in that argument about issuing annual versions (e.g. CC 2014)"

Versioning is still necessary even under the CC model. Plugins, feature sets being saved, running multiple version of Adobe software from the same hard drive, etc. The CC model doesn't negate the need for versions of software. Besides being a marketing aspect it also helps end-users know what they are running (or what they need to run to open a given file). From Todd Kopriva's blog explaining why versioning is necessary:

[Todd Kopriva]"One important technical fact about After Effects (and many other applications) is that the project file format needs to be incremented to a new version when we make certain kinds of changes to the data that is stored in it. For example, we needed to increment the project file format for After Effects CC 2014 (13.0) to accommodate the changes in the data model that effect mask and effect opacity compositing options features introduced. We tend to plan our feature work so that we do things that necessitate changing the project file format somewhat seldom, all at once.

Between minor versions (e.g., from After Effects 12.1 to After Effects 12.2), the project file format stays the same, and this allows people with any minor version of After Effects 12.x to open project files created by any other minor version of After Effects 12.x.

Similarly, we tend to plan changes to the plug-in API (the interface for creating plug-ins) so that folks creating plug-ins don’t need to make changes very often. In fact, as I mentioned above, we were able to keep the changes in this area to a minimum so that we didn’t even need to increment the number of the MediaCore folder, which is what allows the same plug-ins to be loaded from the same location for After Effects CC (12.x) and After Effects CC 2014 (13.0).

Another benefit of having a new major version that is installed alongside the old version is that it gives you a chance to try the new version out without needing to worry about whether there are any unwelcome changes. If there is something in the new version that you don’t like or need some time to get used to, you can bounce back to the old version to get some work done and then come back to the new version when you’re ready. If the new version just replaced/updated the old version, you couldn’t do that (at least not easily)."

There's a thread discussing just this aspect of CC here.

Ryan Holmes
http://www.ryanholmes.me
@CutColorPost


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Dave LaRonde
Re: Renting Furniture
on Jul 31, 2014 at 6:49:02 pm

Glad you mentioned that. I can see the argument for an application that generates project files (PP, AE, AU to some degree, web apps)... but then the question becomes, "What determines when a new CC Version is necessary?"

Does it happen when just one app of many needs a new project file structure?
Does it happen when they've gathered up all the apps that needed them, and then WAITED on some apps until they were all set to go?
Does it happen when most are done and Adobe puts the pressure on the an errant laggard, crossing its fingers that a quick fix to hastily-finished software won't be necessary?

Or should a new version ONLY be assigned to the application that really needs it? That opens of a whole new rat's nest for the renter.

Dave LaRonde
Promotion Producer
KGAN (CBS) & KFXA (Fox) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Gary Huff
Re: Renting Furniture
on Jul 31, 2014 at 6:56:37 pm

[Dave LaRonde] "but then the question becomes, "What determines when a new CC Version is necessary?""

Dave, does this question only apply to Adobe? Would this question not work for, "What determines when a new Final Cut Pro Version is necessary?" or "What determines when a new Windows Version is necessary?" or "What determines when a new AVID Version is necessary?"

If not, why not?


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Dave LaRonde
Re: Renting Furniture
on Jul 31, 2014 at 7:56:22 pm

Those are individual applications and not suites of applications as you find in Creative Cloud.

I'll bet that issuing a new version of ONE application is a lot easier than an entire suite. I wonder what distinguishes Audition CS6 from Audition CC 2014? Probably not anything that couldn't be handled in a simple update, yet there's a whole new version on the renter's hard drive... and for what? To keep things consistent?

Dave LaRonde
Promotion Producer
KGAN (CBS) & KFXA (Fox) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Gary Huff
Re: Renting Furniture
on Jul 31, 2014 at 9:33:01 pm

[Dave LaRonde] "Those are individual applications and not suites of applications as you find in Creative Cloud."

So you could get Color 2 without needing to purchase Final Cut Studio 3? Or just simply update Avid Media Access or install the Metro interface on Windows 7?

The fact that some are single pieces of software while others have different packages is completely irrelevant. Versioning is completely arbitrary for everything.


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Richard Herd
Re: Renting Furniture
on Jul 31, 2014 at 7:07:29 pm

[Dave LaRonde] "What determines when a new CC Version is necessary?"

Does it happen when just one app of many needs a new project file structure?
Does it happen when they've gathered up all the apps that needed them, and then WAITED on some apps until they were all set to go?
Does it happen when most are done and Adobe puts the pressure on the an errant laggard, crossing its fingers that a quick fix to hastily-finished software won't be necessary?

Or should a new version ONLY be assigned to the application that really needs it? That opens of a whole new rat's nest for the renter."


Yes! I think we are talking about the same thing. Excellent questions!


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Walter Soyka
Re: Renting Furniture
on Aug 1, 2014 at 3:36:09 pm

[Ryan Holmes] "Versioning is still necessary even under the CC model. Plugins, feature sets being saved, running multiple version of Adobe software from the same hard drive, etc. The CC model doesn't negate the need for versions of software. Besides being a marketing aspect it also helps end-users know what they are running (or what they need to run to open a given file)."

Here's an interesting thread from the FCP X Techniques forum which neatly illustrates the perils of single-version installation applications:

Exporting v1.3 XML OR converting 1.4 to 1.3 [link]

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Richard Herd
Re: Renting Furniture
on Jul 31, 2014 at 7:05:45 pm

[Chris Pettit] "It's not a "feeling", it is (was) reality. "

If we work alone, always generating all of our own assets, then we can use a PowerPC to run CS2. I am at a loss to figure why if that closed system worked fine, why do we "upgrade"?

I think the correct answer is a perceived but not actual increase of Control, Access, Power.

For example, consider "I was doing great work with CS2 but because of a perceived increase in CAP I "upgraded" to CS3 to CS4 to CS5 to CS6." Your posting history, to me, questions that and you changed the proposition; you raise a very interesting issue/proposition: the reasoning-to-"upgrade" fails with CC to CC2014 because we lose CAP. True! I look at my system and so far I have not "upgraded" to OSX 10.9.4 although the app store beeps at me, because I don't want any hiccups in my CS6. The shock of the rental model is eye opening of how we had not increased CAP in the past by rushing to "upgrade." The rental model appears to be the logical extension/end of why we upgraded.

(I hope I phrased this all properly and clearly.)

The money stuff was a bit tongue in cheek, I admit. I expect more software companies to externalize more costs onto customers, especially as end users perceive upgrades as an increase in control, access, power.


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Ryan Holmes
Re: Renting Furniture
on Jul 31, 2014 at 5:51:24 pm

[Chris Pettit] "My focus is simply on control of my work. Again: control of my work."

You do have control. Rent for the time you need it, quit renting, all your files are still in tact. Should you need to reopen the project in the future rent for the 1 month (or longer) that you need and and do the job.

in my opinion, long term nobody should leave their project in a proprietary format (Avid, Premiere, Resolve, FCPX, etc.). Everything should be dumped out to a standard file format to be read by other apps in the future - EDL, XML, AAF.

Ryan Holmes
http://www.ryanholmes.me
@CutColorPost


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Chris Pettit
Re: Renting Furniture
on Jul 31, 2014 at 5:53:53 pm

[Ryan Holmes] "in my opinion, long term nobody should leave their project in a proprietary format (Avid, Premiere, Resolve, FCPX, etc.). Everything should be dumped out to a standard file format to be read by other apps in the future - EDL, XML, AAF."

Cool. Where is the export feature for AE for that? And what additional application will allow me to open those files? If thats doable, I'll subscribe later today


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Ryan Holmes
Re: Renting Furniture
on Jul 31, 2014 at 6:02:21 pm

[Chris Pettit] "Cool. Where is the export feature for AE for that? And what additional application will allow me to open those files?"

Unfortunately, motion graphics/animation apps have never worked that way - After Effects, Motion. For that you'd render out your comp. Within the CC model you'd just need to subscribe for the small window you'd need to work on the project file. Once you're finished you cancel your subscription.

My above comment was specifically directed towards NLE's. But motion graphics/animations packages have never played well with each other.

Ryan Holmes
http://www.ryanholmes.me
@CutColorPost


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Chris Pettit
Re: Renting Furniture
on Jul 31, 2014 at 6:30:12 pm

[Ryan Holmes] "My above comment was specifically directed towards NLE's. But motion graphics/animations packages have never played well with each other."

Yeah, I'm well aware of the limitations, I was just kidding with you. Thanks


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Ryan Holmes
Re: Renting Furniture
on Jul 31, 2014 at 6:35:16 pm

[Chris Pettit] " I was just kidding with you. Thanks"

I figured as much...I just need to see more emjoi's from you! :-) or ;-) or :-D or *^_^*

Bookmark this to keep up with us kids: http://www.netlingo.com/smileys.php :-)

Ryan Holmes
http://www.ryanholmes.me
@CutColorPost


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